can the original speaker stand offs be reused or is it part of the speaker?

Just now, JohnnyType2 said:

can the original speaker stand offs be reused or is it part of the speaker?

 

I think they are part of it. But when you remove the rivets they could break so might as well use wooden spacers. Your upgraded speakers aren’t going to fit in then in anycase. 

11 minutes ago, JohnnyType2 said:

so confirming with Pawel the canton sub is fed via the optical out on the back of the headunit. these pins are dead on the skoda (which dumb if you ask me)  going to search for a DSP with optical in.

ok so this is going to be too tricky and too expensive and would need the canton sub so defeats the purpose. the best solution is the audiocontrol LC7i

 

it can use 'automode' which feeds the amp by combining the front and rear signals, so if you fade front or rear it doesnt affect the output to the sub, genius



LC7i functions as six separate channels allowing front to rear fading with subwoofer

one thing i noticed about your install was the removal of the stand offs, the thick black ring under the original speaker which raises the speaker off the door. This is to limit the sound bouncing around inside the door. You should add something like this below as i see your speakers are flush mounted on the door now. not a criticism just an observation.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stinger-Roadkill-Fast-Rings-6-6-5-Speaker-Foam-Sound-Deadening-kit/382568478507?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

these are great for isolating the direct of sound and prevent any cancellation of the speaker sound.

1 minute ago, JohnnyType2 said:

one thing i noticed about your install was the removal of the stand offs, the thick black ring under the original speaker which raises the speaker off the door. This is to limit the sound bouncing around inside the door. You should add something like this below as i see your speakers are flush mounted on the door now. not a criticism just an observation.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stinger-Roadkill-Fast-Rings-6-6-5-Speaker-Foam-Sound-Deadening-kit/382568478507?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

these are great for isolating the direct of sound and prevent any cancellation of the speaker sound.

What I have done is behind the speaker, is a big sheet of more sound deadening material. This stand off may or may not fit the door card. I can always add it but as of now the sound deadening is put on both sides of the door. 

ive used these on a few cars before and they really make a difference. It helps direct the sound out into the cockpit, specifically the ring portion on the front. once i get my sundowns ill post an install log.

Just now, JohnnyType2 said:

ive used these on a few cars before and they really make a difference. It helps direct the sound out into the cockpit, specifically the ring portion on the front. once i get my sundowns ill post an install log.

Sounds like a good thing.. I will try to source this locally out here. 

Hello Guys,

 

Interesting thread and discussions and i am from Bangalore so i looked Pioneer DSP myself(on website)

However from my past experience audio installers suggested that for a high power aftermarket speakers like this Helix(or in my case  i wanted focal's)

you also need a good clean powerful signal for their potential and hence amplifier to match output. Infact it is suggested that low power can actually burn your speakers  due to clipping

 

Since in this case DSP with inbuit amp is rated same as OE headunit (20w rmsx4 channel), i was wondering about this aspect ?

My initial thoughts were just to add DSP and keep stock speakers, but now i see possibly speakers can be upgraded as well 

Why then most people say that for after market speakers we need an amplifier ?

 

Sorry inn case i missed something in the thread

 

Regards

-Amit

Yes, it's clipped / distorted signals are the ones which will fry voicecoils, so break speaker drivers. For this reason it's a good idea to measure and dial the system in "correctly", with a non-distorted signal run to just before distortion. But power outputs aren't the full story - your standard head unit will put out around 14W RMS / Channel. To double that sound output, when all other things remain equal, requires an order of magnitude increase in power. So 140W would be around 10dB louder, or potentially double the perceived volume.

 

Something else to take into consideration is the efficiency of the speakers. If you swap out to something that only pushes 84dB/1W from 90dB/1W, you're likely to notice the difference - an amp would help to disguise this. If you're looking for ultimate sound pressure, you need to take that into consideration; if you're looking for quality, a simple 50W/channel discrete amp will make a significant difference. Part of that will come because there's more power available for transients - it's the same as a larger engine in that a 2.0TSI is more capable of dealing with an overtaking requirement whereas a 1.0TSI will struggle earlier, especially when fully-laden. In this case, that translates to high music levels and big bass requirements.  If you're not interested in bass, then an upgrade without and amp might work.

 

What's also true is that running audio signals at around 8/10s of what they're capable of will frequently give a good compromise between signal, noise, bandwidth and distortion. When you add an amp, onboard to a DSP or not, you are adding in components that are made for a higher price point and can therefore be of higher quality, even if the power output headline isn't that much larger. Have a listen to a laptop soundcard and then an external one - even a reasonably cheap USB card like an Aureon is a significant improvement over the built-in card on an older Dell M4700. But that Pioneer is a really nice one-box solution. I've got a selection of sound cards on various machines - a Xonar AE on my gaming box, a Xonar something in the family room, a U3 for portable use and an Aureon in the kitchen. There's also an AG06 mixer on my working desk at home and another one in the office. You can really hear the difference between the inbuilt Laptop / Motherboard sound cards and the external ones. With HD600s, Beyer Custom ones at home and in the office and Shure SE215s for flights, I'm pretty spoiled. 

 

 - Bret

2 hours ago, amitanubha said:

DSP with inbuit amp is rated same as OE headunit (20w rmsx4 channel),

 

Why then most people say that for after market speakers we need an amplifier ?

 

Look at the specs of focal component speakers RSE-160.  Focal suggest a nominal power of 60W RMS, but you only have 20W RMS. You need an amp to make these speakers perform correctly.

 

Edited 4 December, 20187 yr by Guest

When a company like Focal recommends 60W - then I agree, it makes a lot of sense to follow those recommendations. I'd also err towards too much power available and turn gains lower rather than turning an amp up to 10 to "get the most out of it" - that's exactly when you start to fry voice coils. 

 

With the Pioneer, you could also add a four-channel amp, use the inbuilt amp to drive the front tweeters, two channels of the external amp to drive midbass and the other two bridged to drive a sub... Audison Prima would also be another option.

 

 - Bret

 

 

Thanks for a detailed explanation and science behind this, which i also researched a while back building my home HiFi, which was easier to match/build( i have focal aria 926 with matching yamaha rn803 and happy with kind of music i listen at decent cost price)

However i am still struggling to build a decent improvement in my car, by not tampering too much for obvious warranty and also genuine reasons for not touching too much electric wires around, obviously cost being also important to get a decent enough returns on investment.

I also know for myself beyond a certain point improvements in SQ/Bass needs a proper investment , it is something like after 90% improvements rest 10% comes at very high price and diminishing returns in terms of investment

Now my point was actually about above setup done by our friend in Mumbai using Helix speakers and Pioneer DSP, and based on what you guys mentioned he should have used a good amplifier to match Helix outputs ? Though he seems to be very happy with SQ and quality

 I know Pioneer being made to DSP plus amp. and most of cost/improvements comes from discrete components used in AMP section, DSP being cheap these days and a lot of this is firmware/software, so quality of signal is good for speakers but still under powered.

 

I am wondering if i can go in these stages and not burn a hole in pocket as well as warranty/trouble from skoda dealership

 

1. Add Pioneer DSP and get SQ improvements due to a decent amp and signal processing, auto eq etc.., but keep same stock speakers  - 30% SQ improvement/Cost - 150USD

2. Second stage change speakers, keeping same DSP and no amp. - This is what i am concerned for clipping but not sure fully - another 30% improvement/Cost - 300USD for front pair (200USD for coaxials in back)

3. Add an amplifier for speakers and possibly a sub. - 30% more./Cost of Amp - 200USD and possibly a sealed underseat 8" sub - 200USD)

Remaining 10% i leave  due to cost reasons... :-)

Total damage in stages for next 2 years(this is amount of standard warranty left ) - 1050USD 

 

My last problem is using high level inputs do i see any issues with Pioneer DSP  in terms of noise/cracking given Octavia wiring/isolation

I have already done decent sound insulation on all doors as first step so already happy with no road noise at mid volumes

Any other potential pitfall in terms of wiring/connections that i should be aware ?

 

 

Any comments on above or suggestion on each point above is high appreciated as this goal is still elusive for me

I also recently checked Sony  XM-GS6DSP(cost 350USD), and seems pretty decent to drive aftermarket speakers just cost is high compared to Pioneer

 

Regards,

-Amit

 

 

 

I see no issue with that plan, you just need to be careful after stage two. Just don't turn it up fully

 

- Bret

Thanks Bret

One more thing if you can help me, i see that in stock speakers the amp/OE head unit provides signal probably full range - Do you have any idea typically what freq range of signal these head units provide for front and rear ? Is it full 20hz-20khz or some controlled band ?

I also see a lot of comments mentioning that inbuilt OE HU trim down bass etc.. to avoid damaging mid woofers, and do some EQ based on current stock speakers, can you pls help me understand a bit more technically here, what and how this is achieved by car OEM, so that i can build based on proper understanding.

 

Lastly i see stock sonovax tweeter having a cap acting as high pass filter, if i remember from some other posts at around 6.8uF and based on formula i saw it was around 5.8-6K cross over to tweeter, which seems a bit high based on my how HIFI which typically cross over to 2.5-3khz range, and i am sure it is based on driver design and characteristics response. So how does stock mid woofer handle high frequencies since i dont remember seeing a low pass to handle only below 6Khz, it seems the full range signal goes to woofer and tweeter in parallel and only tweeter tries to extract beyond 6Khz based on cap value, is this correct understanding ? Then how does stock EQ inside HU works and in which band range typically

 

Finally if i do replace stock speakers should i go with a design for crossover lower like 2.5Khz and bass woofer below 200Hz ?

 

Any help, suggestion and clarification will be really helpful and appreciated

 

Thanks and Regards

-Amit 

Hi,

 

remember your physics. Frequencies have a wavelength, and there is a point where any speaker driver will start to "beam", and off-axis response will deteriorate as a result. There's a couple of caveats to this and it might actually be that it works in favour of the designers if they take it into account. Remember, too, that the XO (crossover) for the Tweeter is by definition first order (1 component, high pass only) and that only loses 6dB per Octave.

 

So some conclusions / assumptions etc:   

 - the XO might be 6KHz, but you're only 6dB down at 3KHz.

 - the midbass may well be being more directional at this point, but it's probably still playing - but seriously starting to get into roll-off of the reponse

 - hence you can almost get away with a one-component XO.

 

The drop in bass to spare woofers is something I've noticed myself, especially with speed-sensitive volume; I turned it off and haven't turned it back on as the bass response is so much nicer. There's lots of DSP running, though, so I'd not assume too much.

As far as response is concerned, the resonant of a 6.5 is also going to be around 50-60Hz and they're going to struggle below that, cabin gain or no. So I can't really tell you if there's much below that. I would turn off the volume adjustments, and reset treble / mid / bass to zero, DSP to all, and then start tuning your new setup.

I would also not worry too much about XO points in your new setup unless you're going to be running purely active with one amp channel per speaker driver. Other than that, I'd personally suggest to let the manufacturers decide what works. 

Something similar applies to bass, but again, I'd try and test to see what really works - an XO point of 60Hz might work for the door speakers, fourth-order in sofware, with the sub playing up to 72, but positioning starts to make a big difference. Have a selection of well-recorded music you want to listen to and know well when you go to set up the system with your installer and it should help quite a lot. A good example of something that sounds surprisingly good in the car is the Eagle's Hell Freezes Over album - the start to Hotel California with the drums is really rather good. But if all you want to do is listen to EDM, then it makes sense to tune the system to sound good with EDM...it also makes a difference which source you're using - BT is OK, SD Cards are better IME. Tune with whatever you're going to use.

 

 - Bret

Thanks once again Bret for detailed explanation. This is making a lot of sense

Finally question if i follow my steps approach as above, somehow documentation from sound processors and esp. Pioneer mentions that it can be best used with after market speakers as it is gonna first flatten out response(so to cancel EQ from HU) and hence just changing speakers sometimes does not work only

So should i be doing both processor and speakers together ? Or just by adding Processor/DSP i can still use meaningfully my stock speakers since DSP will try to take care with some tuning 

 

If i can do that it will be best for me as no real cutting/chopping of wires and it is like kind of plug n play with stock setup. And maybe focus on adding a separate sealed SUB.(BTW do you suggest adding single or 2 sealed SUBS on both seats to add a balance of bass as in HIFI). I really dont want to add a big SUB in trunk for now...

 

Regards

-Amit

Hi,

I don't see how it can flatten a response unless the initial response modification curve is known. It might be... but I don't think this is the case. But the statement does seem to be quite a lot marketing and not so much real-life. 

Again, if you're looking for an improvement, the DSP can only do so much - it can sort out time alignment at a limited level (because you're not running active), and it can begin to smooth out any frequency response imperfections. But it can't work miracles - it can't add anything that wasn't there to start with and it can't encourage the drivers to be more responsive than they are. It might be able to calm some tweeter harshness, improve imaging and generally flatten things out some, but that's about it. Changing the physical drivers is the way to improve treble resolution, air and sparkle, assuming they were there in the signal from the HU in the first place. There's compromises in this setup... the alternative I was thinking about is something actually quite simple: if you run something like a Raspberry pi with a HifiBerry DAC on the top, you also get an S/PDIF or optical out. That's then controllable by phone and could go directly into your DSP. For testing purposes, this would be really interesting.

 

As far as subs go, pick your poison; I've seen an 8" underseat done (stereo!) in a Superb (and I like the idea - it was a Wavecor driver that modelled really well in the relatively small box, I checked that out myself). You're also limiting deep bass response up to a point by saying "I'd like an 8" driver" - physics demands its price, but if you are prepared to live with limited ultimate volume, then this might be a good solution. Opinion: you'd do well do consider how to run those subs - if it's a pair of 8" underseats, I'd still want to run them off >100W per side just to keep up with the doors. 

Something that sounds interesting off the bat is the Wavecor SW223BD02, with suggested volume of 9l... that's tiny and might actually fit under the seat. I think the SW182BD01 was the driver used in the Superb, and that enclosure requirement is even smaller. Won't drop *quite* as well, but it should be pretty good all the same. 

 

Does this help?

 

 - Bret

 

 

 

Yes makes a lot of sense about external DSP able to correct/not dramatically etc..,  but what is not clear to me is when you say it can go directly to internal DSP(of HU ?)

Just to be clear i am running stock Amundsen HU with 8 speaker setup and clarity and details are ok but it is is center staging or imaging or both(not sure i know them fully but basically i want to hear voices coming from center of dash and remaining instruments in their own space, which is there but not accurate and a bit spread out voices)

Can i access DSP  inside Amundsen HU or are you talking about Phone DSP using Rapi ?

 

Yes subs are physics plus cost to large extent but i am willing to go down 8" inch route for now with active subs preferably on both sides of seats

 

Lastly, i assume all the drivers to be 4ohms ? including my Sub , is it correct ?

 

Thanks

-Amit

so the SQ1000A - for example - uses an RCA in. You can also combine the sound from an Android device with that from the head unit. I thought I'd seen an Optical input on the SQ1000A, there isn't one, so the Pi concept won't work. 

 

The Amundsen already has DSP, no? The Bolero already has it, so I'd expect it there, too. I suspect some playing with phase and decent XOs should help top-end clarity (the tweeters are currently 90 degrees out of phase because of the 1st Order XO).

 

Impedance of the stock drivers is something I'm not clear on. I'd suspect 3 or 4 Ohms, which shouldn't make much difference. 

 

 - Bret

 

Hello Bret

 

I checked the menu system in my car and i dont see a possibility to change/access any DSP settings, like phase or xover stuff 

 

Thanks

-Amit

Thanks Bret, used this weekend to listen more music and realize right now big problem is tweeter harshness and i do listen mainly on SD card

I was wondering can i just change to some quality tweeters with built in xover as first most non invasive steps, what brand or kind of tweeter do you suggest

Also i cant access Amundsen/stock HU DSP as there is now menu item for that so not sure how to adjust phase or xover 

 

Thanks

-Amit

i think brett is talking about the base treble adjustment on the HU, its not a DSP, (not a true dsp) with most tweeters the XO is normally built into the component speaker and not the tweeter (if its bulit in?) which is just a large resistor. A lot of OEM options will use the crossover on the amp to control the tweeter frequencies.

if the tweeter is too harsh you need to adjust the Db, you can buy crossovers that allow you to adjust the db -3/0/+3.

No, I have simple DSP built in to the head unit, with driver focus or all.  And then the full treble / bass / mid adaptation. It's a late 2016 MIB 2 unit, Amundsen, I believe.

 

To be honest, I know of no off-the-shelf simple tweeter XO that would do this, though you could easily try a couple of things: 

 - buy a comp set and use the crossovers from that with the tweeters and see how much difference it makes.

 - build a second-order XO with a coil / cap combop... but you'll quite likely have problems with balance between tweeter and mid. If you go this route, I'd suggest for decent alternatives that are close to the physical size you want either a Seas 27TFFN/CG or my personal favourite at the moment, the Vifa TQ25SC16-04. Use a crossover calc to work out how to protect them below *double* their resonant frequency, blu-tack them into place and see what happens. The Vifa, especially, is revealing as all hell while being beautifully resolving and not harsh. If you're still running into harshness with that and your personal music taste, then an EQ is going to be one of the main ways to start to resolve the issue. The Seas is 50mm in mounting hole and the vifa is slightly larger, they're both not expensive and will give you a good idea if you can get what you're looking for. But I wouldn't spend the time listening to home-hifi drivers before the car ones, though, as you might be disappointed

 

Edit to add: Just a vague bass / mid / treble isn't necessarily going to help much if there's harshness. There's a possible synergy between the frequency response of the driver and the phyiscal layout of the car which means that swapping out the driver may be the best way forward; it's possible that an EQ can help, but all EQ will by definition mess with phase, so it might not help enough without bringing other drawbacks. Convolution may help to temper this, but you're then recreating files with additional processing and that's really quite extreme IMO. A decent DSP should help a lot, especially if there's a possibility to set up time alignment. 

 

 - Bret

 

 

 

Edited 13 December, 20187 yr by brettikivi

This might also help to identify some of the problem areas if you can hear them: 

 

 - Bret

 

audiocontrol build DSPs with phase change so you can tune phase 180 degrees if needed.