Copper grease wheel hubs - yay or nay?

[TeebsVRS]

Going to swop wheel back to the alloys and summers tomorrow, always have a ****** job getting the rears off each year, so thought a fairly liberal coating of copper grease on the wheel/hub surface may help. Have since seen a few things saying that is a no-no. Can't see the issue as not greasing the nuts just the mating surfaces. Anyone have any info either way?

[DGW]

I use a very thin smear of copper grease on the mating surfaces and have no problems removing alloys at a later date.

[Gizmo]

You only need to put a thin smear on the centre bore chamfere (this is where they will stick)

 

[littleade]

As above, apply thinly and you'll be fine. Had mine off acouple of timesnow with no issues either way.

[Ootohere]

'Yah', A little smear of Copper Grease.

 or this can happen and often does.

 

(Never grease nuts, studs or Bolts you are setting the torque of !!

In the type of application we are talking here.)

[TeebsVRS]

Great, thanks all, will lightly coat the mating surfaces.

[silver1011]

I've always copper slipped all mating surfaces between alloys and hubs.

 

I also have always applied a small amout to the threads of the wheel bolts - never had an issue.

 

Trying to remove seized bolts with the stubby wheel brace in the spare wheel kit or trying to kick off a corroded alloy-to-hub at the side of the road is never fun.

[Ootohere]

Apply grease to nuts or studs as you wish.

Whats the worst that can happen?

 

99.9% of the time probably no difference.

Some people might have different ideas of 'a little' oil or a little grease.

 

Have you ever had issues with setting the torque on bolts/studs that are greased, like over tightening

& what allowance do you make compared to torquing as dry/clean?

[logiclee]

Advice from VAG is to never grease wheel nuts or studs.

 

VAG set the torque level quite low for alloy wheel studs, there is a chance however small that wheel studs could become loose if greased.

 

Cheers

Lee

[XK140]

I thought it was the other way round,i.e if you greased the bolts (which is what they are on VAG cars,not studs and nuts) then if you used the "dry" torque setting you would actually overtighten them.

Having said that,following an experience a few years ago I always apply some lubricant.If you don't touch you car yourself and just have a garage service it then bear in mind most don't remove the wheels as a matter of routine. 

So,I had an Audi TT,4 years old and the wheels I assume had never been off...the locking bolt would not budge so an afternoon was spent grinding off the bolt head and,with the wheel off,the hub had to be heated red so the bolt shank could be unscrewed with mole grips.   

[the mad monk]

ill find out in a day or two when i take these winters off

i copper greased them this time round when i had difficulty getting my summers off less than 1 month after it was serviced, does make you wonder what they actually do with your cars doesn't it

hopefully they will just come off nice and easy, i just need to find some new rubber for the front

[logiclee]

I thought it was the other way round,i.e if you greased the bolts (which is what they are on VAG cars,not studs and nuts) then if you used the "dry" torque setting you would actually overtighten them.

Having said that,following an experience a few years ago I always apply some lubricant.If you don't touch you car yourself and just have a garage service it then bear in mind most don't remove the wheels as a matter of routine. 

So,I had an Audi TT,4 years old and the wheels I assume had never been off...the locking bolt would not budge so an afternoon was spent grinding off the bolt head and,with the wheel off,the hub had to be heated red so the bolt shank could be unscrewed with mole grips.   

 

Nope,

 

Can't remember what's in the Skoda manual but certainly a big section in the VW and Audi manuals.

 

Torque settings for wheel nuts, bolts and studs are for dry non lubricated fixings.

 

Lubricating the fastners lowers the torque required for them to loosen. Increases the risk for the bolts to come loose.

 

Lee

Edited 30 March, 2014 by logiclee

[giandougl]

I put a touch of copper based grease on most nuts and bolts that have been removed over the years with all cars.

On the old VRS I greased the bolts holding the rear caliper carriage in place, not before 3 years old, then had the devil's own job to remove these bolts initially, not a problem now..

If/when renewing rear discs/pads, I remove these bolts (one at-a-time) apply a smear of grease and retighten after screwing in first part of bolt end by hand..

[XK140]

Nope,

 

Can't remember what's in the Skoda manual but certainly a big section in the VW and Audi manuals.

 

Torque settings for wheel nuts, bolts and studs are for dry non lubricated fixings.

 

Lubricating the fastners lowers the torque required for them to loosen. Increases the risk for the bolts to come loose.

 

Lee

.

I'm well aware that torque settings given are dry figures.

Lubricating reduces the torque required to tighten,therefore with the stated dry settings, the bolts can be overtightened,which is not good because the threads could be stretched.

.

Whether this then means that the lubrication present increases the risk of the bolts coming loose I'm not sure,but I doubt it.

And what I do know, from the personal experience stated,is that unlubricated bolts run the risk of seizure due to corrosion if not disturbed for several years.

The logical solution is that manufacturers should also specify lubricated settings,but this doesn't happen...and in any case the lubrication properties are also very different between Coppaslip and,say,moly grease.

So,it's a dilemma. 

[Ootohere]

No its just something to consider and make a decision on yourself.

Do as you like or want, just be sure you are safe.

 

People that train as Engineers or Mechanics are taught the theory and practice each way.

Some are not, and some do not care or listen.

 

Just be sure your wheels are on safe.

 

But some can not expect to get wheel nuts off with a 10" long wheel nut spanner if someone put it on with a 20" one and then stamped on it just to be sure to be sure.

Or even just torqued the nuts/bolts  as they should be.

 

A piece of pipe over a leaver to give extra leverage used to be common.

Or tighten a bit before you loosen.

(& then you cried as that stud snapped, that used to be more common than these days.)

 

george 

 

PS,

Lith-Moly,  CV grease is high temp for that purpose.

& some will not use Copper Slip on Caliper Bolts/slides etc incase it effects ABS Sensors.

All greases and lubricants should be used sparingly, more is not automatically better.

Rubber Grease for rubber.

[XK140]

George,I've never had a problem under/overtightening wheel bolts/nuts in nearly 50 years of doing the job.

For what it's worth I don't think a torque wrench is really necessary when you have developed a feel as between too loose,or the threads are about to strip,especially if you've been guilty of the latter and learn from your mistakes! 

These remarks apply to steel on steel,I once had a Lotus with alloy nuts that fitted on steel studs,now that did need some extra care! 

[Ootohere]

Plenty on this forum have had the problem of broken locking nuts.

 

Its all a matter of what people want to do or what experiences they have had.

Many only ever change a spare and nothing else, and some have never even done that.

Might never need to now.

Call the Breakdown Recovery, & leave wheel changes to Tyre Centres.

[XK140]

The McGard type locking nuts are a liability IMO...but that's another story.

[logiclee]

I swap three sets of wheels twice a year. Two VAG and one BMW.

 

I use a high quality 24" torque wrench set to the correct torque which is surprisingly low. (120NM and with a 24" torque wrench that's not a lot of effort)

 

I never lubricate the wheel bolts as instructed by VAG and BMW and never had the slightest issue getting the bolts out.

 

I think there is a big problem with over tightening in the motoring industry. I had the front brakes on the Passat done at an independant that has a good reputation. When I removed the front wheels 2 months later I had to stand on a 36" power bar to get the wheel bolts undone. The rears which were torqued correctly by myself came off easily with my normal wrench.

 

I still see some garages and tyre fitters tightening up using compressed air tool which is a massive no no.

 

Lee

Edited 30 March, 2014 by logiclee

[wja96]

CoppaSlip is not a lubricant, it's an anti-seize compound. It should be fine on all the mating surfaces and even on the nuts if you want to.

[Guest]

It really isn't a good idea guys to be using any form of anti sieze or lube of any kind on wheel bolts. Agree totally with Lee. Infact unless a manual states otherwise all torque figs are dry. Remember that all wheel bolts from new are zinc dry lubed and do not require extra lube. Doing so can be dangerous. If a tech did this in my workshop he'd be in trouble. Most bolts sieze because they have been over tightened which stretches the threads and damages the dry coating introducing corrosion and damaging the threads. If bolts are torqued correctly even if left for a prolonged period they will be fine. Never ever had a car that had siezed wheel bolts in spite of not lubing. Not lubing applies to all vehicle fasteners unless otherwise stated. With great respect to all, just because someone has lubed their threads for ever and a day and been lucky not to have had a big issue doesn't mean it's good advice to give out on here. It really is a no no. And if anyone has corroded wheel bolts just clean them up good or replace them. It's safer.

[exskodatech]

Cracking thread ! As per the pictures above only ! Nice one guys

 

Incidentally when I started in the garage 1989 no one torque up wheels - they were buzzed with the airgun and tightened on the ground with a 1/2 inch pull bar, Very bad practice looking back !

[Guest]

exskodatech...yeah, same for me. Everything was pretty much heavy duty steel and cast iron and you could swing on it all day without doing any damage. These days. for the benefit of those who are not sure, it's a mix of steel and alloy. Much more vulnerable to stripping and other damage. Torque wrench is mandatory for techs for practical and professional indemnity insurance reasons,  as is NOT lubing wheel nut threads! If we have to do it that way, then the public should too. Oh teebs, we used silicone lube on the inside of the wheel hubs where needed to prevent wheel removal difficulty. Just a smear. It's completely inert and won't react between the steel and alloy. 

 

wja96 I sent you some links by pm sometime ago if you are interested. Cheers bud.

[exskodatech]

reaction between metals

 

was reading how when changing electronic injectors on some of the modern crap diesel engines to which there are many (Renault Mainly) that after struggling some times to remove stuck of seized units which can be a very expensive and damaging job some tech's thinking that I can prevent this smear the new injector bodies in copper ease before refitting. This actually speeds up a reactionary processes between the alloys in the head and the steel in the block and glues the new injector in.

 

I read there is a special grease you can now get ! So if they can figure that out how can they make such crap and unreliable systems in the first place

[XK140]

It really isn't a good idea guys to be using any form of anti sieze or lube of any kind on wheel bolts. Agree totally with Lee. Infact unless a manual states otherwise all torque figs are dry. Remember that all wheel bolts from new are zinc dry lubed and do not require extra lube. Doing so can be dangerous. If a tech did this in my workshop he'd be in trouble. Most bolts sieze because they have been over tightened which stretches the threads and damages the dry coating introducing corrosion and damaging the threads. If bolts are torqued correctly even if left for a prolonged period they will be fine. Never ever had a car that had siezed wheel bolts in spite of not lubing. Not lubing applies to all vehicle fasteners unless otherwise stated. With great respect to all, just because someone has lubed their threads for ever and a day and been lucky not to have had a big issue doesn't mean it's good advice to give out on here. It really is a no no. And if anyone has corroded wheel bolts just clean them up good or replace them. It's safer.[/quote

I don't disagree with anything you say because I've heard it all before and know it's the received wisdom in the motor trade.

However the incident that I described regarding having to grind out a wheel bolt was not fictitious and was doubtless caused by overtightening.

Also I don't think the motor trade has anything to be holier than thou in these matters because it's most likely that it's them that's doing the overtightening,tyre shops perhaps more than garages,and just because a wheel can always be removed in workshop conditions it doesn't mean that the owner can manage it at the roadside.

As regards annual servicing, IMO the wheels always ought to be removed to apply grease to prevent hub seizure,but does this always happen in the trade?....I doubt it.