Yes agreed very much similar outright performance, the petrol will be smoother/quieter, the diesel in the real world by a reasonable margin the more efficient.

Also the petrol is cheaper but will depreciate more, the diesel fetches a premium but will suffer less depreciation.

manwithnoaim...my Figures might not be entirely accurate but my car is getting long term high 40's average on almost every tank now and its not driven all that gently....though in fairness I travel a min. 400 miles/week commuting to work so my longer A/M road journeys probably help the figures.....diesels arent so great on short stop start runs.

There is £1750 (edit elegance model) difference in list price between the two engines, taking Honest John's MPG for the manual cars for 10000 miles the petrol will cost £1048 in petrol per year at £106.9 per ltr and the diesel will cost £893 at £112.9 per ltr. The petrol will cost you £155 per year more to run which can be offset by the saving in initial purchase - approximately 11 years to pay back. 

 

Lets say you trade the car in after 3 years the diesel will be around £1000 more than the petrol, making the difference between petrol and diesel around £750 which would fund the extra fuel cost for around 4.8 years.

 

You can use the Which petrol v diesel web page to calculate the difference http://www.which.co.uk/cars/driving/driver-tools/petrol-vs-diesel/petrol-and-diesel-fuel-costs/

 

The argument is not that straight forward and long term ownership of modern cars can bring big bills for both diesel or petrol.

 

I have had two VAG diesels one just kept braking down inc DPF issues and the other just ran but gave poor MPG.

 

I now drive the 1.4TSI and am very happy with it and would happily buy another one to cart me and the rest of the family around.

 

Test drive both cars and see which you prefer.

Edited 10 February, 201511 yr by Dempsek

I'm watching this debate with some interest as in the next 10 months or so, I'll be considering the change as the end of the PCP will be forthcoming.

 

I'm not sure about whether I'm going to stay with the vRS or I'm going to have a lower powered Octavia or whether to go to the Yeti. 

 

What does concern me more is the discussions & merits of diesel. They're now saying that diesels are very much worse for pollution & your health that the petrol versions of the vehicles. NB: I know the Yeti 4x4 doesn't have a petrol engine version. 

 

So I'll be keeping my options open for the time being and seeing how the diesel/petrol argument develops over the coming year.

Diesels have more local pollution. And they are really bad for asmathics and people with other lungdiseases.

And because of that it might happen in Norway that dieselcars will be banned from citycenters when the airpollutipn is high.

I dunno if this is something that is discussed in the Uk?

France led by Paris are committed to eliminating diesel vehicles albeit over the next 10 years or so. Boris has already started the debate on a diesel ban in London.

It was mentioned earlier about really low down grunt of the diesel, accelerating hard from 1000 rpm. Doesnt this style of driving kill DMFs (dual mass flywheels?)

France led by Paris are committed to eliminating diesel vehicles albeit over the next 10 years or so. Boris has already started the debate on a diesel ban in London.

It was mentioned earlier about really low down grunt of the diesel, accelerating hard from 1000 rpm. Doesnt this style of driving kill DMFs (dual mass flywheels?)

Repetitively dragging the car forward in traffic with no throttle input potentially would as the revs are dragged down causing vibration. But the DSG raises the revs a bit for you in this case to avoid the vibrations that DMF don't like. Once the gear is fully engaged and so long as you aren't asking the car to go up a steep hill and so making it vibrate, just accelerating in any gear from 1k+ rpm won't hurt the DMF.

So you can't do it in a DSG at all as it has downshift protection, but in a manual you could, but it would feel wrong and like you should probably change down!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There is no doubt that the diesel option is the better one if you a)tow b)live in a hilly area or c)regular drive at high speed on motorways especially on the continent.

Diesel has about 10% greater energy content per volume than petrol and the diesel cycle is more efficient, especially when working hard at low revs.

Hence the diesel's application in large 4WD / SUV / trucks /ships.

However, if you do a lot of short urban runs, then the DPF issues and greater warm up time (due to greater engine mass and efficiency)cannot be ignored.

The fuel consumption difference is offset by the lighter petrol car and usually better of the line acceleration but all other things being equal a petrol cannot better the diesel.

With similar flywheel torque claims, my old 1.9d was about 11.5 seconds to 60mph and the current 1.4tsi is about 3.5 seconds faster.

Here in Australia, it is not mandatory for diesels to be fitted with DPF although most diesels have them purely because we get what is produced for the Europe.

The old 1.9D did not have a DPF so was fine for local running and most diesels sold by Hyundai/Kia still do not have them on many of theirs sold here.

The potential issues of DPFs are not yet widely known here by the average customer either.

Diesels are more definitely more dirty, producing fine particulates and nitrous Oxides, than an equivalent petrol.

The extreme case is that a large standard marine diesel container ship produces about the same amount of particulates as 130,000 cars, and there are about 60,000 of those plying the oceans and of course docking at your local port.

Australian governments do not provide any incentives to drive economical vehicles except for the paradox that there is an a large 'Luxury Car Tax' that is reduced if it achieves certain consumption targets (only achievable by diesel or hybrids). The people who can afford them are not usually concerned about fuel consumption though.

So in Australia the small diesel car is relatively rare and with our draconian and heavily policed speed limits (100/110kph max) there is probably little need for one.

The exception is the Northern Territories which have 130kph limit for most of the main road from Alice Springs to Darwin (about a good British "B" road standard). There are a couple of stretches totalling less than 300km where a 'No speed limit' was re-introduced. Apparently road casualties were higher with the 130kph limit in place.

It also doesn't help the diesel Octavia's case in Oz that it is $3300 more than an equivalent spec 1.4, and $14000 more than a base 1.4.

The 2.0 Tdi will cost me about £1,400 more than the 1.4 Tsi.

1.2 Tdi is a lot cheaper and it is cheap to tax, but I am assuming that it will be underpowered especially in an estate.

I meant 1.2 Tsi, obviously, but iPad changes it

If the 1.2 Tsi is anything like the unit fitted in the Mk2 then it will be fine up to about 30mph but then rapidly run out of any grunt whatsoever. (I never tried it with more than just me in it)

We were looking recently and in the end went for a 2l fuel of Satan model. It drives lovely but my wife does mainly do short town driving so we just decided that every couple of weeks I'd take it to work with me and thrash it to keep the dpf in check. what i was surprised about was how hard it was to get the oil temp up in the car so for short trips i dont think it was the best choice in hindsight and prob would have been better holding out to find a 1.4 petrol that was the same spec.

 

Still, its a lovely car to drive and on a 50m round trip will be a nice drive. 

I'm not sure about whether I'm going to stay with the vRS or I'm going to have a lower powered Octavia or whether to go to the Yeti. 

You're always welcome to pop over and take my little petrol model for a spin if you like Wanderer however, depending on your age..... Toyota will not have a diesel car available for the 65 plate !!!  Food for thought although, I admit you've gotta be a crumbly to buy a Toyota

To try & ease the OP's fears about the DPF on the diesel, I've been running diesels as our main family car since 2006 - the first was a Vauxhall Vectra 1.9Cdti (150), a non-DPF 2.0 tdi Audi A6 (PD engine?), my 2012 Mk2 Octy Blackline (2 ltr diesel with DPF) & my current Mk3 vRS Tdi.

 

My annual mileage is (if I'm lucky) 8,000 per annum (last year was just under 7k including a 2k road trip around Scotland). The car spends all week parked up on the driveway as it's not used for work, and suffers from several short, urban journeys on my days off, however it does get regular, long journeys.

 

Discounting the A6 as it did not have a DPF fitted, I've never had any issues with the DPFs fitted to either of the three cars with them (surprising given the Vectra's ability to continuously self-destruct). I think the main issue with the VAG engines used to be when they had been fitted in the later stages of the PD engined cars in order to get them through emissions regs. The newer CR engines don't seem to have any issues (bar the occasional faulty sensor).

 

 

I decided on the 2.0 150 TDI Elegance manual in view of camping trips across Europe. The 6 man poly-cotton tent is about 50 kg, with other associated equipment up some rather long uphill stretches on the various motorways (and hopefully a blast along the autobahn to make use of the w-rated tyres). I'd be surprised if our mileage was more than 6k a year. . . It'll go out at the weekend for trips to the family 90 miles away maybe once or twice a month.

 

So, I may have bought the wrong engine?

 

However,

 

Its now on 600 miles, and I've not noticed the DPF regen happening (how often does it?). It's had a weekend in the midlands (down from Liverpool), but all other driving has been 6 miles to and 6 miles back from uni. The engine temp seems to get between 70 and 90 during the 6 miles of urban driving and averages 41 MPG (infotainment). 

 

Edit: The other car is an 59 plate kia rio CRDI - compared to the older generation diesel engine in that, the Octavia Diesel drives more like a petrol. I have managed to stall it by not putting enough revs on  :peek:

Edited 11 February, 201511 yr by lpt100

You're always welcome to pop over and take my little petrol model for a spin if you like Wanderer however, depending on your age..... Toyota will not have a diesel car available for the 65 plate !!!  Food for thought although, I admit you've gotta be a crumbly to buy a Toyota

 

I only have autos now, due to the ongoing knee problem, so a manual only car is automatically discounted as I would be in agony using the clutch all of the time, especially in traffic.

 

My main concern at the moment is the possible backlash over the way people have been misled by the government, in regards to the benefits of diesel fuelled cars and whether it could have an adverse effect on resale values.

Thanks a lot for your replies guys, very helpful.

I will try both and see, but petrol is not looking so bad.

When I said 50 miles to work, I meant 25 miles each way. And I have to slow down due to 30 mph in villages. Is this ok for regen?

Also, what do we know about the longevity of smallish petrol on larger cars? As I said, this is a private purchase as a family car and I will be keeping it for a long time, @ 10 years.

Thanks again.

Dave

Just for your reference I do 6 miles each way to work every day, hardly in any one gear for more than 30 seconds at a time.

 

Had no issues with DPF.

 

Car is now 19 months old and has 10,000 miles on the clock.  The 2.0 150HP diesel manages the regens really efficiently, only noticed a high idle speed and the fans running on when the engine is turned off a few times over my ownership.

We do a fair number of urban journey's, school runs etc... so popular thought is don't go for the diesel, but apart from the first 2000 miles when the fan was regularly running on after engine switch off, haven't really had a problem since, and dpf light has never come on indicating it is 70% blocked and needs a 20 minute run to clear.

 

I had the 1.4 TSI for three weeks as a hire car when mine was in for accident repairs last year and it was returning around 35mpg when we normally get well over 40 in the diesel. While the petrol engine is alot quieter and supposedly more refined, for me acceleration in the 0-60 range never felt as assured as it does in the diesel, but that might be due to unfamiliarity and not using the gear changes effectively.

 

I guess the other difference that might have affected my thinking was it wasn't in the Elegance spec! 

If the 1.2 Tsi is anything like the unit fitted in the Mk2 then it will be fine up to about 30mph but then rapidly run out of any grunt whatsoever. (I never tried it with more than just me in it)

If it's the same 1.2 that's fitted to the Ibiza hire car I had today it was quite unrefined and noisy for a petrol-very different from the 1.4tsi I had in my mk2 Octy. In the dark last night after it was dropped off I checked the oil and washer levels and it looked like it was a 3 cylinder-is that correct?

I decided on the 2.0 150 TDI Elegance manual in view of camping trips across Europe. The 6 man poly-cotton tent is about 50 kg, with other associated equipment up some rather long uphill stretches on the various motorways (and hopefully a blast along the autobahn to make use of the w-rated tyres). I'd be surprised if our mileage was more than 6k a year. . . It'll go out at the weekend for trips to the family 90 miles away maybe once or twice a month.

 

So, I may have bought the wrong engine?

 

However,

 

Its now on 600 miles, and I've not noticed the DPF regen happening (how often does it?). It's had a weekend in the midlands (down from Liverpool), but all other driving has been 6 miles to and 6 miles back from uni. The engine temp seems to get between 70 and 90 during the 6 miles of urban driving and averages 41 MPG (infotainment). 

 

Edit: The other car is an 59 plate kia rio CRDI - compared to the older generation diesel engine in that, the Octavia Diesel drives more like a petrol. I have managed to stall it by not putting enough revs on  :peek:

If you're happy with your purchase then you've not bought the wrong engine. It sounds like our use if fairly similar, and is exactly one of the reasons that I chose the diesel option. A petrol may offer more outright performance (eespecially in vRS spec), however the performance/eeconomy compromise is something that I am happy with.

If it's the same 1.2 that's fitted to the Ibiza hire car I had today it was quite unrefined and noisy for a petrol-very different from the 1.4tsi I had in my mk2 Octy. In the dark last night after it was dropped off I checked the oil and washer levels and it looked like it was a 3 cylinder-is that correct?

  

If the 1.2 Tsi is anything like the unit fitted in the Mk2 then it will be fine up to about 30mph but then rapidly run out of any grunt whatsoever. (I never tried it with more than just me in it)

I'm not sure. I think that Skoda fit more than one 1.2 - the unit fitted in the Citigo & Roomster is a very unrefined 3 cylinder without a turbo. The unit in the Octavia was a 4 cylinder turbo. More refined and more power but absolutely no torque for lugging a car of the Octavia size around.

For me, spending £15k to £20k on a car and then quibbling about ~£200 pa fuel costs seems strange. It's like buying an 80" TV and then only being able to watch Freeview because you paid too much for the box.

  

More refined and more power but absolutely no torque for lugging a car of the Octavia size around.

 

Not sure about the "car the size of an Octavia" bit. I forget the exact numbers but the Octy is something like 20% lighter than a Mondeo and it's almost 150kg lighter than the Focus that I part-exed when I got it. Again I forget the exact number, but the weight difference between my Octy and my wife's Renault Clio is in the 20-50kg range!

I think the point is, again, that it's a very personal thing. What's fast enough in a family car for one person is sluggish to another, so I would suggest driving the 1.2TSi if you think it's an option. If it's as underpowered as suggested you'll soon find out if you take it for even a short highway blast. I suspect, however, that it doesn't feel any slower than a non-turbo 2.0 petrol mondeo, due to the shape of the torque curve and weight, but that's really not very quick these days!

Edited 12 February, 201511 yr by Geek42

I prefer a good petrol car, always have and always will but have to say as good as they are small capacity turbo engines have never really done it for me.

Having owned one and driven a few, absolutely no doubt the performance achieved is clever and impressive in most conditions but ive never seen particularly impressive fuel economy from one, certainly not without babying them.

Also there are times such motors show up their lack of capacity....my Fabia vRS for instance went like the clappers with just me on my own but the minute you started really loading it up (3/4 grown adults and or lots of luggage) it did feel more strained than a 180ps car ought to, the turbo only doing so much to overcome the weight of the occupants.

Also you load one up and attempt to extract the performance MPG suffered terribly. Sure a diesel certainly feels a bit less pokey when weighed down but IMHO to a much lesser degree; economy particularly so.

TBF I think if you are a cash buyer looking for a half quick big estate car, only do a few K a year and arent looking to use the thing as a major load lugger then the 1.4 is probably the ideal car; its probably more fun to punt along than the 2.0 150 and for sure will be smoother/quieter...though the new 2.0 TDI is pretty smooth at speed anyway, just quite agricultural at low revs particularly when cold.

If you do more mileage and/or are buying one on a PCP the TDI probably makes more sense. One of the reasons I got the 2.0 was that it was a good £15/20 month cheaper for the equivalent manual or 30ish for the cleaner DSG which at face value is negligable but its a saving all the same, particularly given the diesel is the more expensive car.

Edited 12 February, 201511 yr by pipsyp

If it's the same 1.2 that's fitted to the Ibiza hire car I had today it was quite unrefined and noisy for a petrol-very different from the 1.4tsi I had in my mk2 Octy. In the dark last night after it was dropped off I checked the oil and washer levels and it looked like it was a 3 cylinder-is that correct?

No, the 1.2tsi is a 4-cylinder.