Driving in snow; 4 and 2 wheel drive

[Alvarado]

I live in West Yorkshire and there are plenty of hills around.  The tarmac roads had been gritted but we had a light snowfall this morning (including hail).  It was just a covering but it fell so fast in some places there was snow (rather than slush) on the road.  I was only on a short trip but got badly caught out driving both up and down hills.  I've only had the car, a 1.6 petrol superb estate manual 4x4 a few weeks, so don't know what to expect.

 

1 - Driving downhill - very slowly, first or second gear, I got lots of juddering when on the brakes and did not feel comfortably in control of the car, though managed to keep a straight track (just as well as there were cars coming up the other way)

2 - Driving uphill, I had to give up going up an (admittedly reasonably steep) hill and wait. I was making very little forward progress, couldn't control the vehicle and was getting a strong whiff of something (clutch? brakes?  Odd as I wasn't on either? Is this some kind of management system kicking in?)  A couple of other 2 wheel drive cars also parked up.  Waited a few minutes and in the mean time six or seven cars and vans successfully went up - a mix of smaller 2 wheel drive cars, a standard issue 'white van' and a couple of 4 wheel drive vehicles.   I tried again and got up there but only after the snow had been turned to slush by the passing of other vehicles.  I really didn't fancy driving up the last few hundred metres (no sign that anyone else had made it) so abandoned the car.  At least I was able to do so safely.

 

To be honest I was a bit disappointed, it was not really any better than the Golf (front wheel drive) it replaced.  Traction has been great in the car up until now (for example in the rain or where there is no standing snow) but today was the first time it's been driven on standing snow (albeit just a covering).  

 

I was not using winter tyres but it didn't look like the cars passing me had them either.  Bearing in mind the vehicles passing me I wondered whether the fact that I had a fancy traction distribution/management device (standard on the car) turned on was of any benefit.  I turned it off but I it didn't seem to make any difference to my ability to get up the hill.  

 

Is the car 'over-engineered'?  Or too heavy (compared with some smaller vehicles that got through?). The fact that other drivers appear to be managing in a variety of cars makes me think I am not expecting too much, but perhaps it's me?  What (genuinely) are other people's experiences and expectations of snow driving, especially in 4 wheel drive cars?

 

[blueR36]

Just because others passed you does not mean they were not on winters . A 4x4 is just the same braking , turn esp off and keep in low gear and let the engine brake you . My R36 has winters and is awesome in the snow , and yes heavy snow for me too this morning

[Huskoda]

Don't make the assumption that others don't have winter tyres. They are getting very popular in the UK now and I see a lot of cars with them now (1/3 of my office carpark had them fitted this year).

 

Four wheel drive means nothing if none of the wheels have any grip.

 

I have them on my Subaru and our FWD Kia is almost as capable as it on them too.

[DanHarper]

What tyres are you currently running? Sounds like maybe they are budgets which would offer less grip than a quality summer which in turn will offer less grip than a quality winter.

 

Your tyres will also be quite wide as its a big car, which in this type of situation means it doesn't 'bite' through like a narrower tyre would (different matter on deeper snow).

 

Winter tyres are not always going to be obvious unless you look close so don't assume everyone not running steel wheels is on summers.

[Huskoda]

Yup, both our cars' winter tyres are on OEM alloys I got off Ebay for less than new steels.

[Alvarado]

I know winter tyres are better.  My understanding of the 'pecking order' is:

• 4wd on winters
• 2wd on winters
• 4wd on standard tyres
• 2wd on standard tyres.

This implies (I thought) that the vehicle should handle better than what I had before (and presumably, about 90% of vehicles on the road).  Maybe it does handle better in the wet (it didn't seem to handle better in the snow this morning), but perhaps the standard tyres are simply not up to the conditions, which while far from extreme, were also not normal either.  They are Michelin Pilot Sport 3's, which are not cheap rubbish, however, yes the wheels are probably too wide (I think they are 17 inch wheels, will have commensurate width).  

 

Maybe I just need to manage my expectations downwards especially as regards hill climbing.  I didn't think I was asking too much, but this comes with experience.  Also on the downhill brake judder - I presume this is the ABS kicking in?  After you've slowed down to 10-20mph, are driving in low gear so as to use the engine as a brake, but a car in front brakes (or someone comes up the hill on your side, so you need to brake), and the ABS (juddering thing) cuts in, what do you do then?!  I was alright this morning as there was (enough) space in front of me but it felt like I didn't have control!  I guess I know the answer - buy winter tyres!?

[Rustynuts]

You sure the Haldex is pulling in the rear wheel drive? Might be only 2 wheel drive and you don't realise.

[Huskoda]

Yes, the judder when braking is ABS. And you are correct, if you don't feel in complete control, then yes, winter tyres are for you. Are you sure the Golf didn't have them before? It probably also worth mentioning that some premium summer tyres are optimised for summer and have much poorer winter capabilities than cheaper summer tyres. It depends on the groove pattern, lots of grooves in line with the tread will do nothing for snow but are brilliant in rain. More general patterns will have perpendicular grooves which provide at least some bite.

 

As above, do check the Haldex actually works - stand on wet grass and get someone outside to look for wheel spin when you set of briskly.

[Andyrep]

Hi

I've had lots of 4x4 over the years, I've never bothered with winter tyres as ive never needed them

I have had cars with general grabbers on which seem pretty good in the snow to me, and whilst 4x4 is good so is driving style

As you can from my profile my current drive is a 520 BM and Ive had no issue in the snow despite what every body says about bmw and I'm on summer tyres ! But I do have a fair bit of weight in the boot

I had Honda CR-V and had to drive 40 miles in deepish snow a few years back, at one point the diff was overheating as a lot of these systems are not designed to run all the time in 4wd

My point is that sometimes to get through you do need to be a little aggressive with the left pedal to spin the fronts to get the backs to kick in

But when you've got going stopping is always an issue on snow and ice, I have a complete dislike of electronic hand brakes for this reason, as a couple of notches on the hand brake can really help, just not enough to lock the rears

The yeti seems ok in the brief outing I had which I'm also guessing is the same haladex as the superb

Ps you through me with the 1.6 petrol until I looked at your profile 1.8tsi 4x4

[briskycat]

When I collected my 4x4 Yeti from the dealer's 3 years ago I didn't even think about setting off on factory-fitted summer tyres. Mainly because of long stopping distance and ABS, which makes it worse still. Winter tyres make a huge difference. 4x4 helps in snow too, but not as much as proper rubber.

As to ABS operation, I often release brake pedal when the ABS kicks in while driving on compacted snow or ice, then push it again, but weaker, so as not to make it kick in another time. This usually allows for more efficient braking. I know that it goes against the advice for earlier ABS systems, but modern ones should be fine with that.

[Andyrep]

When I collected my 4x4 Yeti from the dealer's 3 years ago I didn't even think about setting off on factory-fitted summer tyres. Mainly because of long stopping distance and ABS, which makes it worse still. Winter tyres make a huge difference. 4x4 helps in snow too, but not as much as proper rubber.As to ABS operation, I often release brake pedal when the ABS kicks in while driving on compacted snow or ice, then push it again, but weaker, so as not to make it kick in another time. This usually allows for more efficient braking. I know that it goes against the advice for earlier ABS systems, but modern ones should be fine with that.

In the old audi 80 you had a button to switch off the ABS

Oh and before any one comments I meant right pedal not left lol

[KenONeill]

When I collected my 4x4 Yeti from the dealer's 3 years ago I didn't even think about setting off on factory-fitted summer tyres. Mainly because of long stopping distance and ABS, which makes it worse still. Winter tyres make a huge difference. 4x4 helps in snow too, but not as much as proper rubber.

As to ABS operation, I often release brake pedal when the ABS kicks in while driving on compacted snow or ice, then push it again, but weaker, so as not to make it kick in another time. This usually allows for more efficient braking. I know that it goes against the advice for earlier ABS systems, but modern ones should be fine with that.

I agree Para 2; the best stopping distance is always achieved just before the ABS starts cycling.

[snow_muncher]

• 4wd on winters
• 2wd on winters
• 4wd on standard tyres
• 2wd on standard tyres.

 

not all 4X4 are the same though

 

VAG's haldex based cars have open transaxle diffs from factory, so when wheels start spinning you've only got one driven wheel on each axle

 

Makes winter even more important on a superb than say a haldex based land rover discovery (which has transaxle lsd's)

 

Similar is true of 2wd vehicles - eg the difference in ability between a 2wd vehicle with and without an lsd fitted

[briskycat]

VAG 4x4 cars usually have EDL.

[scottalej]

 

 

VAG 4x4 cars usually have EDL.

 

Which means that even if only one wheel has enough traction the car will move. Very clever and much cheaper and lighter that multiple locking diffs.

[snow_muncher]

EDL is no substitute for a limited slip diff, It can only brake a spinning wheel

 

If the primary drive wheel still has no traction, you still won't move

 

EDL is a good system, but acts once a problem has happen, rather than reducing the chance of the problem happening in the first place

 

Limited slip diffs weigh no more than open diffs

 

The reason to not fit them is manufacturing cost, open diffs are very simple to manufacture from cast components

Edited 4 March, 2015 by snow_muncher

[briskycat]

Not only do limited slip differentials cost more, they also hamper handling on road. EDL is not a complete substitute for a mechanical differential lock of course, but it does its job.

[Alvarado]

Good point on are the rear wheels actually kicking in.  I might try to find a wet field somewhere and have an experiment!  As regards the winter tyres, I am undecided but for the most part the weather is reasonably mild and not sure it would be worth the hassle/expense.  

 

Here's the bit of the hill I was trying to get up (sorry I couldn't get it to embed the picture)

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2215751

 

It gets worse

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1868864

 

but once I had the momentum, I got up the steeper bit of the hill with relatively little trouble.

 

Am I having a laugh, or should this be manageable - with or without winter tyres?  Experience of similar climbs welcomed!

Edited 4 March, 2015 by Alvarado

[Huskoda]

I've seen people stuck on summers on a lot less.

[fabdavrav]

Good point on are the rear wheels actually kicking in.  I might try to find a wet field somewhere and have an experiment!  As regards the winter tyres, I am undecided but for the most part the weather is reasonably mild and not sure it would be worth the hassle/expense.  

 

Here's the bit of the hill I was trying to get up (sorry I couldn't get it to embed the picture)

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2215751

 

It gets worse

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1868864

 

but once I had the momentum, I got up the steeper bit of the hill with relatively little trouble.

 

Am I having a laugh, or should this be manageable - with or without winter tyres?  Experience of similar climbs welcomed!

 

I've been up worse in my 14yr old Fabia on winter tyres................& that has EDL & ASR...................my new MK7 Golf Estate has ESC, EDL, XDS, ASR............about as good as it gets without 4WD............& that handles even better in the snow!

 

TBO I think you should check out your tyres.....then alter your driving style, as you have to remember that the electronic systems only work properly if certain inputs are created! So foot down & use 2nd gear, & get those wheels spinning to force the haldex to shunt the power around correctly!

 

Example:............In my old Fabia on "B" road, done it loads of times, & all conditions past 20yrs. Had me & mate in car with ski-gear, in winter conditions with car on winter tyres, sunny morning, gritter's don't do this road until later in day. Road covered in snow & ice. Doing 50mph, about 50m from sharp right bend with bad camber, & saw glint from the sun as it hit the corner.................F ME BLACK ICE! OH S***!!!!!.................Now I need to drop down not to 40mph (as per usual conditions in winter), but to 25mph!!.......So stamp on the brakes (feed in then stamp) & change down from 5th to third then second, keep my foot on brakes whilst doing this, shedding sped, ABS starts to kick in circa 30mph, start to turn into corner so now foot on accelerator & power out of corner , ASR/EDL kicks in, car goes slightly sideways (controlled), opposite lock on steering, still powering out in second revs circa 4000rpm, car pulling out & now nice & change up....corner & black ice passed........................all the time keeping it smooooth, don't upset the weight balance.................I used the cars electronics to my advantage!. my mate thought we were a goner when he saw the sheen of the black ice, as it was a huge patch.....well the whole corner of the road!..............Basically I did not leave the road & was still more or less on my half.............

 

Simples really.............

 

Also re EDL......................I did tech write ups in the Fabia/Yeti/Roomster sections on EDL/ASR etc.....................EDL works across one axle & will make both wheels rotate at the same speed (it's job is to stop one rotating faster than the other)...ASR will slow both wheels down to stop them spinning...................the haldex will shunt the power to the rear if the fronts get no grip.................also the cars (& I don't know if the OP's car has this), now have XDS which is a more advanced version of EDL..................these systems are very good!

 

Yes if you want to do rock crawling & mud baths then fully independent, front/rear/central locking diffs are great, but on what is a road car?........NO way!

Edited 4 March, 2015 by fabdavrav

[DanHarper]

Good point on are the rear wheels actually kicking in.  I might try to find a wet field somewhere and have an experiment!  As regards the winter tyres, I am undecided but for the most part the weather is reasonably mild and not sure it would be worth the hassle/expense.  

 

Here's the bit of the hill I was trying to get up (sorry I couldn't get it to embed the picture)

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2215751

 

It gets worse

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1868864

 

but once I had the momentum, I got up the steeper bit of the hill with relatively little trouble.

 

Am I having a laugh, or should this be manageable - with or without winter tyres?  Experience of similar climbs welcomed!

 

You may know this bit of road (off the back road between hebden and oxenhope, heading to warley moor):

 

 

Doesn't look as bad as it was due to the camera making things look darker.

 

2wd FWD car with no LSD. But winter tyres! Oh and I'd come down it before hand with no problems either

[Gromle]

A Fwd or RWD with good wintertyres can get up hills where 4x4s with summertyres dont stand a chance without any problems.

[rum4mo]

I think that the main problem here was having Michelin Pilots on in cold or winter weather, I am a fan of Michelin tyres in general, but no competent car manufacturer should be supplying cars into UK with these tyres on them if they are going to be sold any further North than maybe Birmingham!  My local Costco even started issuing warnings to buyers about this sort of thing, they are great tyres if used only between mid April to mid October, after that, get some winter tyres on, maybe again Michelin, but this time Alpins.

[Gromle]

Summertyres are useless in snow. Thats just how it is. No grip at all.

[fabdavrav]

I, after that, get some winter tyres on, maybe again Michelin, but this time Alpins.

 

I have had Alpins on my old Fabia & very good, Now have Alpin A5 on the Golf in 225/45R17 & again good grip & quiet also!