Felicia 1.3 MPI - Oil in coolant tank / white gue in Oil cap

[criiser]

Hi!

 

Read ALL the thread about headgasket (several times) and started to worry like a mad man about our Felicia. 

 

https://goo.gl/photos/vxNJKkVByhEnff7A9

 

Link to my photos of the car.

 

Done so far:

 

Drained coolant and dismounted coolant tank. Cleaned it with alot of degreaser making it pure and clean. That was three weeks ago. Pictures are from this morning.

 

At the same time (Three weeks ago), i cleaned the oil cap from the white gue. As shown, it's back.

 

So, with these two, suspecting that the headgasked could be the cause. But after looking at the many vids - need to find out WHY the gasket went seems to be the major concern. As far as I know, the car hasn't overheated. Maybe it might even be running a bit cold. As the temp gauge is going up and down. still under the "normal". (Could also be air - but i changed the thermostat anyway. Sadly, after reading here, it is the chinese crap I got :( So might have to replace it AGAIN

 

But, before jumping into replacing head gasket with ALL of those challenges, Is it the most probable cause at this time?

 

(Will dismantle the rocker cover to see if them three plugs are there as shown also in previous threads.)

 

There seems to be leaking oil also from the engine at the from right above the oil filter., That picture might not be the best quality

 

Am I jumping to hasted conclusions?

 

Kind regards,

Christian

[KenONeill]

There's nothing in the photos which specifically makes me think HGF.

 

What sort of driving do you mostly do? If it's all short trips, under 4km or so, I'd think that condensation is a much more likely cause of your mayonnaise.

 

If it's mostly relatively long highway trips, say 15km at 80km/h cruise or faster, then you could be right, so ask a local garage about a coolant gas analysis test. I've no idea about costs in Sweden, but it's typically about UK£15.

Edited 30 December, 2015 by KenONeill

[david 1220]

Dont disagree on the "gunge" being water in the oil, regarding the oil leak -- could it be that the coolant curcuit is pressurising part of the oil ways causing the leak ? Why not drain the engine oil and see what that tells you , that would be my next move -- easier the pulling the head off !

[criiser]

So, the car is doing two trips a day 10 Km each on highway speeds 90 Km/h. Main routes, but adding some smaller trips to that. ofc. When below 5 outside temp i always use car heater BTW

 

Just changed the oil three weeks ago - can of course do that again. I did not reflect on the oil being of different color and smell however. But then I might be too much untrained to do that.

 

In regards to the Oil - looking for that milk mayo in the oil? Or?

 

Have an garage close by - will see if they do Coolant gas analysis. They assisted me removing an NUT for the sparkplugbridge that I destroyed :(. Changed me 1200 SEK aprox 90 UK£- So, might need to find another one.. Hence why I want to do the stuff mostly myself.. The car Cost me 3000 SEK to buy. SO - i'm aiming for cheap - here

 

Thx for looking and answering !!!

 

Br, Christian

Edited 30 December, 2015 by criiser

[KenONeill]

Not being Scandinavian, I didn't think of you having a sump heater. That does tend to point more towards an internals diagnosis, because you won't be running with a cold oil system so much as UK drivers will.

 

So next question - Is the oil level rising? (no mistake) That would suggest a water - oil leak in the head gasket.

 

As for the gas analysis, you might get a DIY kit from a better class auto accessory/maintenance shop. The sort of place that sells tools, oil, coolant... rather than the ones that sell "Carlos Fandango" alloy wheels.

 

£90 sounds a lot for removing a nut, but it depends on how much work was involved.

[criiser]

Not being Scandinavian, I didn't think of you having a sump heater. That does tend to point more towards an internals diagnosis, because you won't be running with a cold oil system so much as UK drivers will.

 

So next question - Is the oil level rising? (no mistake) That would suggest a water - oil leak in the head gasket.

 

As for the gas analysis, you might get a DIY kit from a better class auto accessory/maintenance shop. The sort of place that sells tools, oil, coolant... rather than the ones that sell "Carlos Fandango" alloy wheels.

 

£90 sounds a lot for removing a nut, but it depends on how much work was involved.

 

As far as I know, the car should hold 4,5 L of oil. I only filled it with 4L and the stick is way full. The stick is, (why?) black - so its "challenging" to read it anyways, to se if its rising is - um EVEN worse - At least its NOT empty.. thats for sure )) - Just read on another swedish site that straight AFTER an drive when the engine has become properly HOT. Hasty check of the stick if its grey(ish) = PROBLEM - Going for a drive I must

 

Took them 1/2 hr, And they used induction heating on the nut. Appereantly they charge extra for that.. Hence why I really DONT want to use them again Depending on the tools they use, different cost... Eh. Does not make sense to me at all... :(

 

My main concert is the oil in the coolant as cleaned to sooo WELL and nice, shiny etc. and just a week and it got SUPER greasy and blew inside again :( - to the point its complicated to read the actual LEVEL from the outside...

 

I could order from your recommended UK webonline dealer? If you know of one that is good? (OR does the shop on this site have them?)

 

Br,

C

Edited 30 December, 2015 by criiser

[KenONeill]

As far as I know, the car should hold 4,5 L of oil. I only filled it with 4L and the stick is way full. The stick is, (why?) black - so its "challenging" to read it anyways, to se if its rising is - um EVEN worse - At least its NOT empty.. thats for sure )) - Just read on another swedish site that straight AFTER an drive when the engine has become properly HOT. Hasty check of the stick if its grey(ish) = PROBLEM - Going for a drive I must

 

Took them 1/2 hr, And they used induction heating on the nut. Appereantly they charge extra for that.. Hence why I really DONT want to use them again Depending on the tools they use, different cost... Eh. Does not make sense to me at all... :(

 

My main concert is the oil in the coolant as cleaned to sooo WELL and nice, shiny etc. and just a week and it got SUPER greasy and blew inside again :( - to the point its complicated to read the actual LEVEL from the outside...

 

I could order from your recommended UK webonline dealer? If you know of one that is good? (OR does the shop on this site have them?)

 

Br,

C

Well, if you have a rising oil level, then you must be getting additional fluid from somewhere. This means it has to be one of condensation (but the sump heater and your driving pattern pretty much rule this out), coolant leaking over to the oil system (http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/379717-felicia-13-cylinder-head-corrosion-around-coolant-ways/ shows how this could happen amongst other things), or fuel leaking into the oil system but with a petrol car you should smell this when you open the oil filler cap.

So is the coolant level dropping? This would confirm an oilway-waterway HGF, which doesn't leak exhaust gas into the water system.

 

Induction heating equipment is expensive, and rarely used, so I can see why a garage might charge for it.

[RicardoM]

Christian, first of all, you're on good hands in here. It's December 30th and people are still keen to help. Our aims are similar, DIY rather than visiting a car workshop. By the way, there are two extensive topics on head gasket replacement. They are titled

 

Felicia 1.3 Cylinder Head Corrosion Around Coolant Ways

 

felicia N-reg 1.3 glxi AFTERMARKET & SUPERIOR head gasket?

 

On both of them, I and a few others walked the owners of the cars from start to finish. Both repairs were successful. They proved it's doable at home (except the head skimming part).

 

A few other members had to do recently similar repair jobs. Here is one of them:

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/372421-today-i-have-finally-my-cylinder-head-it-is-repaired-with-photos/#entry4392181

This year, more than ever, head gaskets failed. Most of them due to corrosion.

 

The photos are inconclusive for now. But oil in coolant... that's not good. There are alternative methods to decide if your engine is a candidate for a head gasket job. In fact, at least 12 methods. In order to diagnose if your head gasket failed, I recommend this video in 2 parts:

 

 

 

PS

What do you call a spark plug bridge?

Edited 30 December, 2015 by RicardoM

[RicardoM]

PS

What do you call a spark plug bridge?

Why did you register your Felicia in topic Felicia 1.3 on carburetor - owners around the world? You have a Felicia 1.3 MPi (injection engine, no carburetor). Now I gather the "spark plug bridge" is in fact the ignition transformer.

[criiser]

Christian, first of all, you're on good hands in here. It's December 30th and people are still keen to help. Our aims are similar, DIY rather than visiting a car workshop. By the way, there are two extensive topics on head gasket replacement. They are titled

 

Felicia 1.3 Cylinder Head Corrosion Around Coolant Ways

 

felicia N-reg 1.3 glxi AFTERMARKET & SUPERIOR head gasket?

 

On both of them, I and a few others walked the owners of the cars from start to finish. Both repairs were successful. They proved it's doable at home (except the head skimming part).

 

A few other members had to do recently similar repair jobs. Here is one of them:

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/372421-today-i-have-finally-my-cylinder-head-it-is-repaired-with-photos/#entry4392181

This year, more than ever, head gaskets failed. Most of them due to corrosion.

 

The photos are inconclusive for now. But oil in coolant... that's not good. There are alternative methods to decide if your engine is a candidate for a head gasket job. In fact, at least 12 methods. In order to diagnose if your head gasket failed, I recommend this video in 2 parts:

 

 

Hi, Yep read those threads _SEVERAL_ times - LOTS of good information in there, hence why I started to worry. And as said, in one of the MANY good video links One mechanic stated importance to find root cause. This I also agree on!

 

Will look at them videos also!!

 

As in regards to the Carburetor thread. My mistake, I will ofc remove them. Eager to join, lacking a tad bit of the knowledge....

[criiser]

Well, if you have a rising oil level, then you must be getting additional fluid from somewhere. This means it has to be one of condensation (but the sump heater and your driving pattern pretty much rule this out), coolant leaking over to the oil system (http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/379717-felicia-13-cylinder-head-corrosion-around-coolant-ways/ shows how this could happen amongst other things), or fuel leaking into the oil system but with a petrol car you should smell this when you open the oil filler cap.

So is the coolant level dropping? This would confirm an oilway-waterway HGF, which doesn't leak exhaust gas into the water system.

 

Induction heating equipment is expensive, and rarely used, so I can see why a garage might charge for it.

 

I suspect its dropping. The residues in the coolant tank makes it interesting to diagnose.. I'll figure out an way to top it off properly. Since I replaced ALL the coolant twice now, I can really tell if this is air leaks setteling OR coolant going away :( - Did first just plain change all coolant because you should and its getting winter and I had no idea of freeze point in the REALLY old one. The second time, wanted to replace the thermostat as I felt the temp gauge was "pumping" up and down. Ie. suspecting that it went FULL open, making the engine run cooler.. Sadly, I got the chinese bad one with plastic... So, That part might need redoing :-)

 

Br, C

[KenONeill]

I suspect its dropping. The residues in the coolant tank makes it interesting to diagnose.. I'll figure out an way to top it off properly. Since I replaced ALL the coolant twice now, I can really tell if this is air leaks setteling OR coolant going away :( - Did first just plain change all coolant because you should and its getting winter and I had no idea of freeze point in the REALLY old one. The second time, wanted to replace the thermostat as I felt the temp gauge was "pumping" up and down. Ie. suspecting that it went FULL open, making the engine run cooler.. Sadly, I got the chinese bad one with plastic... So, That part might need redoing :-)

 

Br, C

Well, that's all sensible, but doesn't really put us any nearer to a diagnosis. :(

 

A gas analysis would confirm or absolutely rule out a cylinder to water system HGF.

Beyond that, we do actually need to know which level(s) are varying how. Having said which, if you start draining the sump and get water out, that pretty much confirms a waterway oilway HGF.

[criiser]

Well, that's all sensible, but doesn't really put us any nearer to a diagnosis. :(

 

A gas analysis would confirm or absolutely rule out a cylinder to water system HGF.

Beyond that, we do actually need to know which level(s) are varying how. Having said which, if you start draining the sump and get water out, that pretty much confirms a waterway oilway HGF.

 

Realize this. Apologize for that. Added more pictures to the album, The temp gauge not reaching the "line" - that was taken @ highway after an good 20 km drive... And some readings from the engine it self with the trusty IR temp reader.

 

Grabbing the oil stick JUST after turning the engine off. To me, plain engine oil... No extra smell to it. Brown see-thru, since its brand new.. The only thing concering is that I cleaned the oil cap prior the drive. and BAM, the mayo comes back after this test drive...

 

Will look at them videos now, to perhaps get more tips on how to diagnose this. 

 

Br, Christian

[RicardoM]

The second time, wanted to replace the thermostat as I felt the temp gauge was "pumping" up and down. Ie. suspecting that it went FULL open, making the engine run cooler.. Sadly, I got the chinese bad one with plastic... So, That part might need redoing :-)

A stuck open thermostat is easily recognizable during winter because it takes for ever the engine to warm up to 90C. Furthermore, a chinese thermostat is indeed less reliable, but not to the point of lasting at least one year. Nevertheless, for now the thermostat is your last worry. The oil residues in the coolant is your #1 priority.

 

If there is no bubbling in the expansion tank, I suspect a small crack in the head gasket between coolant and oil passages. See below all 7 types of head gasket failures.

[KenONeill]

/\ Agreed, with the note that the leak we suspect could lead to a slow warm up too, but the thermostat is much easier to check unless symptoms of liquid transfer are obvious.

[criiser]

A stuck open thermostat is easily recognizable during winter because it takes for ever the engine to warm up to 90C. Furthermore, a chinese thermostat is indeed less reliable, but not to the point of lasting at least one year. Nevertheless, for now the thermostat is your last worry. The oil residues in the coolant is your #1 priority.

 

If there is no bubbling in the expansion tank, I suspect a small crack in the head gasket between coolant and oil passages. See below all 7 types of head gasket failures.

Yep saw that picture already from the other threads.. GOOD explanations. 

 

So we suspect now HGF (even a small one) - WHY is now the MAIN question remaining. Corrosion ? Can that happen in between the HG and the ENGINE? is the gasket made of metal that can corrode?

 

And/or as I also read, some cars just did not have proper torque from factory?!

 

Br, C

[felicia16v]

The water usually passes past the push rod holes but very rare to see oil in the water so I suspect the core plugs under the rocker shaft have corroded thru.

[KenONeill]

Yep saw that picture already from the other threads.. GOOD explanations. 

 

So we suspect now HGF (even a small one) - WHY is now the MAIN question remaining. Corrosion ? Can that happen in between the HG and the ENGINE? is the gasket made of metal that can corrode?

 

And/or as I also read, some cars just did not have proper torque from factory?!

 

Br, C

You did look at the photos in the other threads? One of them shows severe corrosion of the cylinder head itself.

[KenONeill]

The water usually passes past the push rod holes but very rare to see oil in the water so I suspect the core plugs under the rocker shaft have corroded thru.

This needs you to know where the core plug are, and carry out a visual inspection. If this is correct, it's a fairly easy job, but not one I feel competent to describe.

[criiser]

The water usually passes past the push rod holes but very rare to see oil in the water so I suspect the core plugs under the rocker shaft have corroded thru.

 

Hmm Are the CORE plugs the three ones ALSO described in the other two threads? If so that is simple remove the cap (two screws) and see? Right? OR is core plugs somewhere else?

 

Br, C

[KenONeill]

Hmm Are the CORE plugs the three ones ALSO described in the other two threads? If so that is simple remove the cap (two screws) and see? Right? OR is core plugs somewhere else?

 

Br, C

General explanation - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_plug - I don't know where they are on this block.

[criiser]

The water usually passes past the push rod holes but very rare to see oil in the water so I suspect the core plugs under the rocker shaft have corroded thru.

 

From the wiki page i got two things, firstly I have an heater installed in ONE of them. Secondly, if one is leaking, that would just have the coolant go OUT of the engine and having oil into the coolant? Right?

 

Br, C

[criiser]

Anyhow, took two more pictures just now, that I think are from theese plugs. One filled with my heater, the other one is directly on the other side of the engine aprox same location... Are these the ones and how do I determine if they leak? Does not look so from outside at least

 

Br, C

[Breezy_Pete]

I don't think core plugs visible from the outside of the engine are what felicia16v is referring to.

 

One HG failure not described in that image is high-pressure oilway to either coolant jacket or outside world. Pretty rare, but if either of the right-hand end two headbolts has lost preload for some reason, possible.  The high pressure oilway is the small round orange one, right hand end of gasket.

That could cause mixing of oil into water, because when running, the oil pressure will be higher than coolant pressure. 

Edited 1 January, 2016 by Wino

[criiser]

I don't think core plugs visible from the outside of the engine are what felicia16v is referring to.

 

One HG failure not described in that image is high-pressure oilway to either coolant jacket or outside world. Pretty rare, but if either of the right-hand end two headbolts has lost preload for some reason, possible.  The high pressure oilway is the small round orange one, right hand end of gasket.

That could cause mixing of oil into water, because when running, the oil pressure will be higher than coolant pressure. 

 

Ah. I see. Well then As suggested Im of to replace the HG - Started investigating in a shop that can unwarp the head when removed - Rickardo wrote that he was doing an guide somewhere in them threads. Is that published? And, When the enginge is this dismantled I should also check for valve leaks I got. SHould I also replace the gaskets for the intake and exauste while this much is removed? The Mechanic -Matt- "Schrodingers Box" - says replace the bolts when doing this aswell .) SO Im guessing that is also on the list to do But maybe, consollidate an this you should do when you replace the HG...

 

Br, C