vRS TDi occasionaly slow to fire up.

[joeyrich]

My local dealer say there is nothing they can do for my 64 plate VRS TDi which is also slow to start, Skoda UK have asked my to book it in with another dealer for a second opinion.

 

The local dealer really doesn't like doing warranty work as I've found out previously...

 

can anyone recommend a dealer in either Cumbria, Lancashire or Yorkshire?

[chris4500uk]

I also just got told it was "normal" and no work was done, now I'm out of warranty. This was only a few days ago however.

 

I did get warranty work done so it's not like the garage doesn't like doing it.

 

I'm guessing because it starts up everytime regardless nobody higher up seems to care? Will this do any damage to things like the DPF by excessive cranking ?

[chris4500uk]

Thought I would update this, I've replaced the battery as the old one gave up just after 3 years and the startup problem has seem to have disappeared for now. Infact it's started quicker than it ever did.

 

Eurocarparts lion AGM battery and a VCDS recode

[Gabbo]

On ‎01‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 10:14, chris4500uk said:

I also just got told it was "normal" and no work was done, now I'm out of warranty. This was only a few days ago however.

I did get warranty work done so it's not like the garage doesn't like doing it.

I'm guessing because it starts up everytime regardless nobody higher up seems to care? Will this do any damage to things like the DPF by excessive cranking ?

 

If you have previously reported the fault while Under warrenty, ask for the worksheet with your written complaint.

If it gets worse after your warrenty has expired, they should still investigate Under your warrenty because the failed to find/fix it in the first place.

 

Excessive dead cranking will cause you no problems except for battery wear as there is no fuel being injected (unless the car is coughing & spluttering to start but then this would be a different issue).

[Gabbo]

11 hours ago, chris4500uk said:

Thought I would update this, I've replaced the battery as the old one gave up just after 3 years and the startup problem has seem to have disappeared for now. Infact it's started quicker than it ever did.

Eurocarparts lion AGM battery and a VCDS recode

 

This is interesting as you are the second person to state it has gone with a new battery.

My battery seems fine & cranking speed is OK, it just doesnt seem to inject anything. I drive 130km per day so the battery should always be charged well.

My car also starts first time at -10° or -15° & then turns over 3,4, 10 times at 5° or 10. (so the battery itself cant be the real problem)

I'd be interested to know what the ECU does after the battery replacement & recoding.

 

Let us know if it continues in the good way or if the issue comes back after some weeks/months.

Edited 6 March, 2018 by Gabbo

[jordy_wd]

Has anyone had this update applied to a vehicle with a remap?

 

My car is going in for water pump replacement and the dealer said they will do some software updates at the same time. I've told them there is an engine remap and they said they'll not do anything to wipe it but I'm still anxious!

[Gabbo]

If they update the engine ECU software, which is required for the starting issue detailed here, then I'm pretty sure your "remap" will be overwritten & lost.

If they are updating the software on other modules the it wont affect the engine ECU & you will keep the remap.

If they do update the engine ECU, then you will need to ask if there is a new remap available for this software version or go back to the original software the remap was based on, losing any updates from the newer version.

 

 

[Greenliner1]

My 14 plate vRS Tdi has been behaving itself for the last couple of months, I agree with Gabbo that it never happens when really cold, I’m wondering if UK winter diesel is having an effect? I’ll soon find out when it changes back in April.

 

Battery theory is interesting, wondering if there’s a reset of sorts going on. My battery always shows 80% State of Charge (SOC) on the maxi dot.

 

Ive also mentioned it to the dealers as the used approved warranty is up shortly and I want it recording in case it gets worse.

[Greenliner1]

As predicted first long crank start of 2018 after re-introduction of summer diesel in April.

 

it does not exhibit this behaviour on V power but this is a Gas To Liquid type fuel and exhibits different characteristics compared to regular diesel.

 

Looks like we will just have to put up with it - an undocumented feature if you will - simply clever, sorry meant simply can’t be bothered to admit there’s an issue or sort it out.

[RAJKO333]

Check if your car has leveled parking, there is an issue with a fuel or oil pump where there is not enough power to supply everything necessary to start the car, hence long crank time. Had the same problem on my skoda octavia just park it so that the front is downhill if you are parked on an incline and the problem is solved.

 

[jordy_wd]

There is a discussion on this on the TDICLUB forums:

 

https://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=481340

 

This video on youtube shows it could be a problem with the camshaft adjuster for the variable valve timing. Revised part numbers are:

 

03L 109 096B - body with the solenoid valve
03L 906 455C - bolt/valve assembly

 

 

From reading that thread though, there could be a number of issues:

 

1. battery

2. lift pump

3. VVT adjuster

 

From the TDICLUB thread it seems the most likely cause is the in-tank lift pump.

 

EDIT: In this thread regarding a MK7 GTD, it was the lift pump CONTROL UNIT that caused the issue:

 

http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php/175756-2014-GTD-Cold-Starting-Issue?p=1096231#post1096231

 

Part number is 5Q0906121. Most recent one from 2016/2017 seems to be 5Q0906121N

 

It also appears to be easily replaced. This for a TSI petrol but the diesel one will be similar:

 

 

Edited 12 November, 2019 by jordy_wd
Additional info.

[Gabbo]

I still believe the problem on my car is software/calibration based due to insufficient start fuel demand, time of the glowpugs or injector/fuel-pump "learning/adaptation" features.

When it is cold, like this morning it was around 0°C and the car fired immediately after sitting all weekend.

When I restart at 10°C after a day at work it can sometimes take 2-5-10s to start.

During this time it is dead-cranking so there cant be any fuel going into the cylinder & then after a delay it fires immediately.

 

However, at every service the garage tell me they have never heard of this problem on any VAG engines & there is nothing that they can do (via software/calibration updates or resseting learning features).

[jordy_wd]

45 minutes ago, Gabbo said:

I still believe the problem on my car is software/calibration based due to insufficient start fuel demand, time of the glowpugs or injector/fuel-pump "learning/adaptation" features.

When it is cold, like this morning it was around 0°C and the car fired immediately after sitting all weekend.

When I restart at 10°C after a day at work it can sometimes take 2-5-10s to start.

During this time it is dead-cranking so there cant be any fuel going into the cylinder & then after a delay it fires immediately.

 

However, at every service the garage tell me they have never heard of this problem on any VAG engines & there is nothing that they can do (via software/calibration updates or resseting learning features).

 

Could the software issue lie within the fuel pump control module though? I'm no expert by any stretch, but could the ECU be calling for the fuel pump via the module and an error in the module means a lack of fuel for a split second?

 

Also - the part is onto revision N. Would that mean there have been issues with in leading to the VW group revising it so many time?

[jordy_wd]

Okay so I've taken a look at my fuel pump control module and it is revision letter F, dated 12/07/2014. I've ordered one from a 2016 Passat with part no. 5Q0906121M and a date of 29/01/2016.

 

I've attached instructions below for removing rear seat bench and module:

 

 

Edited 12 November, 2019 by jordy_wd
Spelling

[Gabbo]

On 12/11/2019 at 14:23, jordy_wd said:

 

Could the software issue lie within the fuel pump control module though? 

Also - the part is onto revision N. Would that mean there have been issues with in leading to the VW group revising it so many time?

 

It is possible, perhaps the engine ECU isnt requesting the lift pump to be enabled or it is not reacting correctly.

However, in my experience, the low pressure fuel pump is just a dumb pump (its on or its off) so the control software is pretty straight forward.

[jordy_wd]

Just now, Gabbo said:

 

It is possible, perhaps the engine ECU isnt requesting the lift pump to be enabled or it is not reacting correctly.

However, in my experience, the low pressure fuel pump is just a dumb pump (its on or its off) so the control software is pretty straight forward.

 

Thats a good point. The revised module is due to arrive tomorrow so I'll see how it goes. My long starts are quite infrequent (probably 1 in every 50 starts) so it may take a few months to see if it has worked or not.

[Gabbo]

will be interesting if you have positive results, I can talk with my garage in January when it goes for the service.

However, as its getting colder here in the mornings (2°C this morning) the engine start is very quick after the short glow plug delay so its difficult for me to explain the behaviour properly until the summer comes again.

[Greenliner1]

I feel for you @Gabbo eventually traded my car in with this feature for a Kodiaq.

 

I would still like to know what it was though, very frustrating and irritating felt unsupported by the dealer once the 320F TPI was done that didn’t cure it.

[Gabbo]

For me its not really a problem as I am still confident the car will start. (Its perhaps my only real mechanical complaint about the car after almost 100k miles.)

Its just dosent look good to people looking from outside when they see another VAG car cranking & cranking & cranking especially after I've told them how good the car is.....

 

The service from the dealerships here in Switzerland is very good compared with m experiences of Ford & Opel garages in the UK.

I guess their hands are tied as they know changing components wont fix it & they are unable to make SW or Calibration changes themselves.

Edited 13 November, 2019 by Gabbo

[jordy_wd]

Okay so after a few days with the revised fuel pump module I still had the long crank..

 

So it's been returned and I will probably just leave it as changing the VVT adjuster seems more hassle than it's worth.

[lpt100]

My 64 plate (2015) 2.0 CRDI does this too (Elegance estate). I asked the online chat at Skoda UK about this and got this reply: "Regarding your question about the delay when starting the vehicle, our Technical Team have advised that the retailer has to diagnose the vehicle and can decide if any technical literature matches the symptoms you have described. They are not aware of the issue and advise if you experience the symptoms again, try to take it back into the Retailer as soon as possible so that they have a better chance of replicating the issue and diagnosing the fault."

[flybynite]

I am not denying that some cars may have a fault, or need a software tweak, but to those that have had diesels since the days of mechanical lift pumps, injector pumps, and even donkey engines, this sounds all too familiar.

 

Diesels are hard to start, always have been, always will. Fuel is far less volatile than petrol, rotating components are necessarily heavy and compression is high. High cranking current needed for starting and glow plugs. I have spent many a morning trying to coax a diesel into life. If you have ever tried to light diesel with a match you will see the problem.

 

A new glow plug working perfectly can take 3-7 seconds to reach temperature on a good day. When you used to do the glow plug manually timing the starting was an art.

 

Many engines needed 'decompressors' to take the compression off the engine to allow it to spin up easier to get oil and fuel pressure up without flattening the battery. Timing compression with glow plug and starter was even more of an art, needing three hands.

 

They are also no better when they are hot and fuel evaporates too soon. It cranks to cool the cylinder with airflow.

 

It is very easy to screw a diesel engine completely when starting if too much fuel goes in when conditions are not right for ignition, it can hydro-lock the cylinders bending con-rods even cracking the crank.

 

I have a couple of Ford 2.0 PSA common-rail diesels  which are a fantastic engine, absolutely bullet-proof but still do something similar sometimes. However they never fail to start,

 

Temperatures, fuel quality, battery current all can have an effect but sometimes it takes the electronics a few seconds to get the sequence right. It may be waiting for pressures to build,  it may need to purge the cylinders, it may then need to wait for the glow plugs to cool before they can be used again. Lots of things it may need to do, it might take a few seconds but it does a better job than I could.

 

We are all so used to these diesels starting on the button that it is easily forgotten how hard it is to do.

 

It is why I tend to drive a petrol 

 

Edit: just be glad you don't have to do THIS every morning 🥶

Edited 16 December, 2019 by flybynite
video link

[Firkindolloper]

Hi Guys,

 

I have the starting problem as described by MENCE at the beginning of this thread.  Does anyone here know the TSB number etc?  My dealership couldn't find their RS in the dark.

 

 

[Gabbo]

2 hours ago, Firkindolloper said:

I have the starting problem as described by MENCE at the beginning of this thread.  Does anyone here know the TSB number etc?  My dealership couldn't find their RS in the dark.

 

@Mence do you know the TSB number for the update the did to your car for this?

 

[Mence]

19 minutes ago, Gabbo said:

 

@Mence do you know the TSB number for the update the did to your car for this?

 

I'm sorry, I have nothing.

 

The car was still under warranty at the time, work was carried out and returned to me with no paperwork to support it.