EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 1

[DarrellGB]

The vote is done, accept the majority of the U.K's decision and let's forge on together.

[mender]

Perhaps this would be effective, a petition as follows:

 

Given the closeness of the result, in addition to the remain intentions of Scotland and NI which is likely to bring about the possible future breakdown of the union and separation of the UK, a call for an immediate second vote to ascertain whether the UK wants to either stay together and be part of Europe or separate and each country vote on their intentions.

[camelspyyder]

Perhaps Norway should review their initial 1972 53 to 47 vote not to join the EU.

 

or Greenland - 53 to 47

 

51.1% of France voted for the Maastricht Treaty, but 50.7% of Denmark voted against.

 

Sweden voted to join the EU 52/47, Norway at the same time in 1994 again voted No 52/48.

 

Denmark rejected the Euro 53 /47

 

Ireland rejected both the Treaties of Nice and Lisbon by 53% against.

 

 

Historically, many referendums about the EU have been very close. The UK one was no different.

 

 

They clearly can be painfully divisive - friends in Scotand talk about the barriers between the Yes and No campaigners still.

Edited 25 June, 2016 by camelspyyder

[mender]

Perhaps Norway should review their initial 1972 53 to 47 vote not to join the EU.

 

or Greenland - 53 to 47

 

51.1% of France voted for the Maastricht Treaty, but 50.7% of Denmark voted against.

 

Sweden voted to join the EU 52/47, Norway at the same time in 1994 again voted No 52/48.

 

Denmark rejected the Euro 53 /47

 

Ireland rejected both the Treaties of Nice and Lisbon by 53% against.

 

 

Historically, many referendums about the EU have been very close. The UK one was no different.

 

 

They clearly can be painfully divisive - friends in Scotand talk about the barriers between the Yes and No campaigners still.

Great info, thanks

[camelspyyder]

I understand a petition has started for a 2nd referendum to be held............................

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

Norway waited 22 years for their second referendum.

 

And then rejected the EU again.

[camelspyyder]

Sorry I forgot.

 

Yesterday was the 2nd UK referendum on EU membership.

 

"Remain" won the previous one 67% to 33% in 1975 with the winning side scoring 17million votes (the same as this time)

 

 

 

So are the petitioners actually asking for a 3rd UK referendum?

Edited 25 June, 2016 by camelspyyder

[FUBAR]

Ah crap I typed a reply but hit back somehow and lost it before posting!!!! 

 

My basic points were along the lines of:

 

• People not having thought of the impact for the likes of NI and Scotland - For NI some fairly obvious ones since we are the only ones with a land boarder and within our own economy and that of our EU neighbour fairly strong import/export percentages in the balance for both. For Scotland, I don't see the massive impact over that faced by the rest of Great Britain. Certainly not anywhere near in the same regard as the actual in your face on the ground impacts for NI. My personal preference was to vote out and still is and this was done as my view for what was best for the UK as a whole, not just my own little bubble. 
• Votes for 16/17 year olds, because it's their future too - I agree initially for a second or two, then I think about it and decide that we do have a line in the sand where the point at which a person comes of age of maturity and is set at 18. When it therefore comes to letting a child having either not completed their education, or having only just completed the bare minimum of one, with no life experience in the real world where such decision impacts are to be felt first..... I don't want the most easily influenced wee chavs/neds voting on what is also the rest of MY life too. I would have been happy to cap it for an upper age limit to say that only those still working/of working age can vote as the rest of you crinkles, lets face it won't have to suffer the consequences of any mistakes for as long as the rest of us would, but Jesus, that would be taking it to a whole new level of controversy.
• The way the entire voting results are being used in general - Wales and England voted exit, Northern Ireland and Scotland votes to remain......... and the point is? There is no point, the United Kingdom is a union of several nations and the referendum was if the UK, the union of which we are all members by majority wants to stay or go. It's what is best for the majority, not to throw your toys out if it doesn't suit one specific minority of all things. That whole side of it is pointless to me! 
• For the 'Referendum Protest' - It is a fair call to campaign for another vote. It was too close for real comfort and while it was a majority and some would say that is final (again I voted out), if there is enough support and concern to justify holding it again, it only can go to seek out that the majority vote is correct either way. The dangerous side being that if another vote is held and the results swing round to the same narrow margin in the other direction, it doesn't really solve a thing really for any vast majority if it doesn't exist. Personally I wouldn't bother with calling for re-run so to speak. I would want something serious to come up to justify it in the coming days and it well could. It's a big decision and it's not to be taken lightly.
• SNP throwing out a well polished long prepared aggressive declaration hours later is not a consequence of the vote - It's just a crude new angle to use to have another shot with good prospect to pump some fast and furious propaganda into it to see what happens. Only risk on the matter is one politicians career and looking like a tit if it doesn't go her way again. Watching it live this morning I was surprised when she didn't lay back over the pulpit and cry 'FREEDOM' in conclusion. I do hope in the event that the Scottish people can take a good overall picture and do what's genuinely in their best interest. I would hope that they get a chance to see how things in an independent as is UK would be before being forced to make such a decision. Another matter to be seen is if the EU will make an extra super special exception and agree in principle to an independent Scotland getting to jump straight in. They didn't last time, but in the wake of the blow dealt by the UK or what might be left of it exiting, it might be a way for Brussels to save face and stick the retaliatory knife in a bit. 

 

In all seriousness though, it was a referendum for the United Kingdom to exit, we are all members of this union and I hope the clue in the name proves to be true 'UNITED' Kingdom.... 

 

 

ps. in regards to a 'Boarder Poll' in NI, there is more chance of Turkey replacing Scotland in the UK than that specifically happening as a result of this referendum! We will have one when the time and the conditions are right/met and the majority will decide if they want to pay 4X as much for car tax and insurance in a poorer economy. It really in our case needs to be a strong majority though for obvious reasons and not the 17% in favour of last opinion polls. 

Edited 25 June, 2016 by FUBAR

[Guest]

How can the result of a second vote be any more relevant than Thursday's? Unless it can be proven that there was anything illegal about the result, you'll just have to man up and accept it. All you are petitioning is we continue to vote until the Remain campaign win. Hardly democratic.

Most of the people I know that are saying the result is a disaster for the UK were thinking more along the lines of self interest rather than to the detriment of the country;they had holiday homes in an EU country or their significant other was from one of them.

By any chance do any of the above apply to you?

[Guest]

As for Indy Ref 2; Wee Nippy is a poisonous, corrosive, self justifying bint. That she would jump on an Out vote was a given. Her speech was being prepped months ago.

You may not know that one of the key SNP manifesto pledges was no increase in Council Tax, which they have clung to. Now you may think Yayyyy! But as a consequence of this there are HUGE cutbacks in Council servicesservices. Not so Yayyy.

She harps on about the UK governments inaction over Scottish steel, yet the new Forth Road Bridge is made from steel imported from China.

If you want to know the type of people that are attracted to the SNP rallying call, read some of George's BS rhetoric.

Case closed.

[domhnall]

If I had led a campaign implying I'd cut immigration and fund the NHS instead of "Brussels" I'd be a bit worried right now. Still waiting to hear how exactly they plan to run the country.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

[RapidPaul]

I remember some of the arguments about an independent Scotland joining the EU last time around. IIRC, were an independent Scotland to apply for membership then it was considered likely that Spain would use its veto in order to avoid setting a precedent that could split that country apart. It was also pointed out that Scotland would have to accept the Euro, despite Alex Salmond's assertions to the contrary. This led a lot of people to conclude that the SNP didn't really know what they were doing.

[lol-lol]

Just checked my active pension value this morning and it has gone up by £1,500 ! 

 

Going for International bond element really paid off as that element of pension really jumped in value as the pound fell sharply and therefore conversely that part of the pension climbed steeply.

 

Also a more positive outlook for my Civil service pension as it is linked to CPI and whilst CPI has been bouncing around just over zero percent that is expected to climb steeply as inflation really takes off in  July and August as the lower fuel prices effect disappears and prices rise swiftly with the much higher import prices of goods.

 

Clouds can have silver linings if you plan and with a bit of luck.

 

Moodys credit agency, one of the big ones, has cut UK economic outlook to negative which can mean UK will find it more expensive to fund its £1.7T national debt and who would lend us money denominated in sterling rather than the more stable Euro or US dollar, doubt it.   

Edited 25 June, 2016 by lol-lol

[domhnall]

The two biggest arguments against Scottish home rule, EU membership and losing the pound, are looking hollow. Even the Euro looking better than sterling. It may be time to take back control.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

[swedishskoda]

My condolences.

Still in shock after 24 hrs.

Labour will probably be next to eradicated in England in the next election (with Blairites in charge of the remnants). Boris, IDS, Gove, May and their cronies will rule you for decades - in fact, you're entering Thatcher II.

A tiny silver lining is that the long-lasting hangover might wipe UKIP from the stage.

Being an Anglophile at heart I hope that you can find a way out of this mess. Don't let Guy Fawkes's failure dishearten you. There's always a next time.

Edited 25 June, 2016 by swedishskoda

[RapidPaul]

Setting aside the actual outcome, the thing I found most disappointing was the way the campaigns were run. There were occassional flashes of positivity from both sides, but on the whole it was incredibly negative. When I saw the footage of Nigel Farage and Bob Geldof fooling around in boats on the Thames, I experienced a genuine feeling of despair. This, I realised, is why Britain doesn't deserve nice things.

The second major disappointment was the quite frankly unbelievable row over MI5 and the use of pencils in polling stations. I don't know how it started or who started it, but as someone who has worked on elections in a professional capacity, I was staggered that the electorate could fall for such a genuinely stupid proposition. The only logical conclusion is that a significant percentage of electors are imbeciles. This raises tough questions, as we have to accept that elections are quite possibly decided by people who couldn't find their backsides with both hands.

[domhnall]

Setting aside the actual outcome, the thing I found most disappointing was the way the campaigns were run. There were occassional flashes of positivity from both sides, but on the whole it was incredibly negative. When I saw the footage of Nigel Farage and Bob Geldof fooling around in boats on the Thames, I experienced a genuine feeling of despair. This, I realised, is why Britain doesn't deserve nice things.

The second major disappointment was the quite frankly unbelievable row over MI5 and the use of pencils in polling stations. I don't know how it started or who started it, but as someone who has worked on elections in a professional capacity, I was staggered that the electorate could fall for such a genuinely stupid proposition. The only logical conclusion is that a significant percentage of electors are imbeciles. This raises tough questions, as we have to accept that elections are quite possibly decided by people who couldn't find their backsides with both hands.

The campaign for remain was a carbon copy of the better together campaign in 2014. The pencil conspiracy theory was a carbon copy of one that did the rounds after yes Scotland lost.

Interesting that labour are now blaming the snp for not campaigning hard enough for a remain vote. 62% is a pretty clear remain vote, not sure what planet labour politicians are on right now.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

[camelspyyder]

Who'll leave next?

How long will the German people (as opposed to the German government) continue to be willing to pay for the rest of Europe?

Their EU contribution is enormous (although in monetary terms it barely covers what Poland takes out)

http://english.eu.dk/en/faq/faq/net_contribution

Edited 25 June, 2016 by camelspyyder

[Ootohere]

@ Fin69,

 if you mean my BS rehtoric, then i am not attracted to the SNP so that is just bullsh!tting & a wee wind up.

 

Name calling on Nicola Sturgeon or anyone else seems to be a trait that is causing divides and often from people that need to look at the issues from all sides and see where the countries issues can be helped and not just supporting one party or another.

 

As for another post & Barriers & Divides, (camelspyyder)

It hardly needed a Referendum in Scotland to have Barriers & Divides and long term falling out, 

that has happened for decades even centuries, and can be based on 'What School did you go to?' 'Take that!'

or just, 'My family always vote for Labour'.

 

60 miles apart and you can get an argument over Salt & Sauce or Salt & Vinegar and even if track suit bottoms tucked into socks was the height of fashion among neds.

 

RE Steel.

The Materials come into Scotland, recycled materials that left the UK / Scotland often.

the UK does not mine Iron Ore or the other minerals anymore to produce steel, 

but the Steel Mills are getting back up and running and employment will be in Steel Making in Scotland, 

the Recycling can happen because Scotland can produce the Electricity cheap enough.

 

As to the new Forth Crossing, the steel came from China for a reason and the slightest bit of research 

will show why it came from China and not the UK.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/scotland/newsid_9693000/9693393.stm

Lots of name calling here as well, and lies and damn lies and they are 'working for us' supposedly.

Edited 25 June, 2016 by GoneOffSKi

[swedishskoda]

We however have a responsibility to help out our Commonwealth countries & we get help from them & the Commonwealth has been going longer in modern history & we ought to back them up more, & considering we were doing trade deals with India & China hundreds of years ago I think we will do better now we are out.

I think you'll find that your bargaining position towards India and China is not quite as strong as it was in the 18th and 19th centuries. Edited 25 June, 2016 by swedishskoda

[gadgetman]

The campaign for remain was a carbon copy of the better together campaign in 2014. The pencil conspiracy theory was a carbon copy of one that did the rounds after yes Scotland lost.

Interesting that labour are now blaming the snp for not campaigning hard enough for a remain vote. 62% is a pretty clear remain vote, not sure what planet labour politicians are on right now.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

The problem is yesterday we saw a glimpse that the economic arguments are indeed very real and were played down as just fear.

That was just initial panic. IMO once the deal process starts, and companies decide to leave for known stability, that's when things will go South.

I think many on the remain side for the Scottish referendum are now in support of a split. Despite the consequences, given the UK predicament I think it'd be the better option for Scotland this time round.

Overnight the credit outlook has been downgraded to negative, and our rating is likely to take a bashing too.

Mr Hannan has said free movement of workers would continue. How does this work taking back control of our borders?

France, as they told us during campaigning, are seeking to abolish UK vehicle checks in Calais.

[thomasbham]

I am glad that I have got a place to go back if turns you've made a wrong decision.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[Aspman]

Interesting that labour are now blaming the snp for not campaigning hard enough for a remain vote. 62% is a pretty clear remain vote, not sure what planet labour politicians are on right now.

 

 

"Planet blame shifting" I believe.

[moley]

Interesting that labour are now blaming the snp for not campaigning hard enough for a remain vote. 62% is a pretty clear remain vote, not sure what planet labour politicians are on right now.

Labour have a problem, that Their leader supported Remain, yet the areas of England that voted leave were the traditional Labour heartlands.

My area in Surrey voted 58% remain 42% leave on an 82% turnout, so we might declare UDI.

[mender]

How can the result of a second vote be any more relevant than Thursday's? Unless it can be proven that there was anything illegal about the result, you'll just have to man up and accept it. All you are petitioning is we continue to vote until the Remain campaign win. Hardly democratic.

Most of the people I know that are saying the result is a disaster for the UK were thinking more along the lines of self interest rather than to the detriment of the country;they had holiday homes in an EU country or their significant other was from one of them.

By any chance do any of the above apply to you?

I see your point on a second vote, however do you not question the points I made, regardless of any bias one way or the other?

It really is not self interest in all honesty, just the fact we are turning from an inclusive, co-operative, stable partnership into becoming more insular-it seems like a huge backwards step and my worry is that many did not consider the ramifications as described.

 

Most regular posters on here know that I am married to a Pole and have property there (usually in my signature but changed to fit my view of result), however, this really is not the key factor in my protest and I would not dare to push this on self interest.  Put simply, it would be the same if she was Indian and we had property in India, nothing to do with the EU, I see your point and understand it, but the reason I have married a non-UK person and go there is because I am open to other cultures, regardless of the location.

 

I am sad that we are being portrayed as arrogant and as sticking our fingers up at everyone after concessions and endless work to accommodate us.

 

I was proud of Britain in Europe, now ashamed of my home country.  I have hardly slept since Wednesday night as it is such a serious thing.

If Scotland did pull out and get EU membership, we'd move there.

[Jonny5ive]

#NotMyVote