EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 1

[TonyB1965]

Well, as somebody mentioned (SkodaVRS1963 I think) the media and with a DAILY readership figure of 432,000 then it's no wonder Express readers turn a little bit anti. Or 'racist' for want of a better term. The Daily Mail ( 1.54M/ day) and The Sun ( 2.2M/ day) aren't any better.

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/stopfundinghate/videos/345280275809309/

That's the problem, the use of the word "racist" because you have no other argument. You have actually succeeded in making the word meaningless, whilst at the same time giving real racists like Diane Abbott a free pass.

Edited 22 October, 2016 by TonyB1965

[@Lee]

I can't believe it's not Brexit

 

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4NewsDemocracy/videos/1089891391088803/

[@Lee]

That's the problem, the use of the word "racist" because you have no other argument. You have actually succeeded in making the word meaningless, whilst at the same time giving real racists like Diane Abbott a free pass.

 

If you say so. But here's Farage, a man who was followed by many Brexiters for his policies being interviewed in 2014 on LBC. Don't forget that UKIP 'spearhead(ed)' the whole campaign for Brexit.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/watch-nigel-farage-v-james-obrien-live-from-1130-9/

 

And if you want to bring up racist MP's then there you go;

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-amber-rudds-speech-echoes-mein-kampf/

 

And don't come back with 'but LBC's pro EU' as Katie Hopkins also has a slot (for reasons I can't quite fathom).

[TonyB1965]

If you say so. But here's Farage, a man who was followed by many Brexiters for his policies being interviewed in 2014 on LBC. Don't forget that UKIP 'spearhead(ed)' the whole campaign for Brexit.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/watch-nigel-farage-v-james-obrien-live-from-1130-9/

 

And if you want to bring up racist MP's then there you go;

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-amber-rudds-speech-echoes-mein-kampf/

 

And don't come back with 'but LBC's pro EU' as Katie Hopkins also has a slot (for reasons I can't quite fathom).

James O'Brien? seriously? why not use Lord haw haw, it would have more credibility.

[@Lee]

James O'Brien? seriously? why not use Lord haw haw, it would have more credibility.

how so? Lord Haw Haw was a Nazi propagandist. James O'Brien interviews people on the radio.

[trundlenut]

So it's empty rhetoric considering the deal has not been done and faces opposition from many countries and people.

So just as valid as everything from the brexiteers then

[gadgetman]

Ok now we really are getting side tracked.

Never been into racist voting argument for brexit. For me it was simply voting for lies from leave & half truths in the belief they'd actually lose.

So I think we can drop this line of discussion....

[TonyB1965]

how so? Lord Haw Haw was a Nazi propagandist. James O'Brien interviews people on the radio.

Same grasp on reality.

[@Lee]

Sorry but, I was just trying to point out that a number (large or small) of people who voted leave did so not because they cared about some perceived idea of 'sovereignty' or 'taking back control' or the numbers of legitimate refugees (of which the EU has no control over) or members of the EU who work and contribute and pay taxes and prop up the failing NHS but because they are simply xenophobic, racist bigots whose anger and hatred of all things non British has been fuelled by rags such as the Daily Express, The Sun et al.

 

People aren't born racist. They're taught to be and what people read and watch and listen to is the basis of that.

[@Lee]

Banxit?

 

 

Britain’s biggest banks are preparing to relocate out of the UK in the first few months of 2017 amid growing fears over the impending Brexit negotiations, while smaller banks are making plans to get out before Christmas.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/22/leading-banks-set-to-pull-out-of-brexit-uk?CMP=share_btn_fb

[Ootohere]

What a great opportunity for Banks that want people to have accounts with people in the UK that are paid in Sterling (edit) and need to have wages and income paid into a bank and someplace to have savings
Job opportunities with British banking and not actually investment gambling and creaming more off the top. A shame for those losing jobs but there is always work in the fields and food processing industry. Think how fulfilled they will feel after a honest wage for a honest weeks work.

Edited 23 October, 2016 by Offski

[SkodaVRS1963]

People aren't born racist. They're taught to be and what people read and watch and listen to is the basis of that.

You're only partly right.

 

A lot of it these days is perception.

 

Views and opinions that were perfectly acceptable 30/40/50/60 years ago are now frowned upon.  Ironically, I just watched The Italian Job (original version) on DVD and in there is a character called "Camp Freddy".

 

I'm guessing you'd call that a "homophobic" view today?

 

And that's where this is going; everything has to have a label (homophobic is actually laughable if you know any latin and derive the origin of it).

 

If I say that I'm concerned about uncontrolled immigration and that (like the system in Australia) we only let people in if they have a qualification and/or a job to go to, does that make me xenophobic or racist?

 

You can't legislate opinions because they are subjective.......what one person finds offensive another person might not.

[moley]

Was it the banking industry that got the the UK into financial meltdown in 2007-2008????????

.....and was it US the British tax payer who bailed them out to the tune of £500 billion???????

.....and are those same bankers still picking up their bonuses???????????????

When are they leaving????????????????

[@Lee]

 

“Our government and parliament have decided not to implement this [swiss] vote; they simply ignored the referendum,”

https://www.ft.com/content/12ce1506-95c7-11e6-a80e-bcd69f323a8b

[TonyB1965]

https://www.ft.com/content/12ce1506-95c7-11e6-a80e-bcd69f323a8b

Good luck if you think 17.4 million people are going to accept being ignored.

[@Lee]

 

 (homophobic is actually laughable if you know any latin and derive the origin of it).

 

 

 

I didn't do Latin at school. However 'phobia' is from the Greek 'phobos' meaning panic or a fear of something. No Googling required

[@Lee]

Good luck if you think 17.4 million people are going to accept being ignored.

I'm not suggesting they would be ignored only that a referendum held in Switzerland was ignored because they saw the benefit of free trade etc.

[SkodaVRS1963]

I didn't do Latin at school. However 'phobia' is from the Greek 'phobos' meaning panic or a fear of something. No Googling required

 

Any word ending in "phobic" is almost always a meaningless label that the leftie luvvies use to close down a debate when they are losing.

Or to describe someone else's opinion that is manifestly correct but they don't like it.

 

A phobia is derived from the Greek: φόβος, Phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear".

 

And Homo means man, or human.

 

So "homophobia" is a morbid fear of humans or men!!  See how ridiculous these labels are to those of us with an education?

 

The only people who use them are probably the same idiots who celebrated the Millennium on 1st Jan 2000 - a year early.

[trundlenut]

Any word ending in "phobic" is almost always a meaningless label that the leftie luvvies use to close down a debate when they are losing.

Or to describe someone else's opinion that is manifestly correct but they don't like it.

A phobia is derived from the Greek: φόβος, Phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear".

And Homo means man, or human.

So "homophobia" is a morbid fear of humans or men!! See how ridiculous these labels are to those of us with an education?

The only people who use them are probably the same idiots who celebrated the Millennium on 1st Jan 2000 - a year early.

Kind of loses any hilarity when it involves threatening people or physically attacking them though.

[TonyB1965]

I'm not suggesting they would be ignored only that a referendum held in Switzerland was ignored because they saw the benefit of free trade etc.

It isn't "Free Trade" though is it.

[gadgetman]

It isn't "Free Trade" though is it.

And therein lies the elephant in the brexit room.

With Norway & Switzerland both paying for market access, either we will have to as well or we don't and we lose trading on the same terms.

It's that basis the banks and big companies with their EU bases here will decide to relocate back inside EU/single market borders.

As for Switzerland ignoring their vote, it's not entirely true. It was ignored because enacting it would end free trade with the EU which would hit Switzerland hard.

[domhnall]

What a great opportunity for Banks that want people to have accounts with people in the UK that are paid in Sterling (edit) and need to have wages and income paid into a bank and someplace to have savings

 

what about people in other parts of Scotland, I mean Stirling is lovely but it's not the whole country is it?

 

[Ootohere]

They, as in the places that are not in the UK or are not owned by UK companies want to keep importing into the UK,

and the people and Companies in the UK will want the Imports and to be able to pay for the imports.

So a re-boot of the UK economy is well overdue, and those that are pyramid banking and hedging and getting paid over the odds might just need to accept the adjustments.

China the US and others will be trading with the UK regardless and the poor, the real poor are unlikely to be that much worse off than they are,

and the comfortable and more than comfortable will just have to go with the flow,

or maybe emigrate, see the welcome they get elsewhere as economic migrants.

PS.

Domhnall, i corrected the auto correction when i spotted it.

Edited 23 October, 2016 by Offski

[domhnall]

And therein lies the elephant in the brexit room.

With Norway & Switzerland both paying for market access, either we will have to as well or we don't and we lose trading on the same terms.

It's that basis the banks and big companies with their EU bases here will decide to relocate back inside EU/single market borders.

As for Switzerland ignoring their vote, it's not entirely true. It was ignored because enacting it would end free trade with the EU which would hit Switzerland hard.

 

 

At the Law Society's annual conference recently there was a presentation on Brexit by Sir David Edward (the UK's former judge at the EU’s highest court) which was really very good. Fortunately he seems to have repeated the same points in another forum where there was a reporter present so his thoughts on Free trade can be repeated here for you all.

 

 

UK government ministers have revealed their “ignorance” of Brexit’s legal implications in recent speeches and declarations, according to Sir David Edward. 

He said there was a “great deal of ignorance” and a “great deal of loose talk” in the government’s handling of its Brexit position following the June 23 referendum.

He took particular aim at a speech given by Liam Fox, the UK’s international trade minister, who told diplomats that the UK would keep the EU’s existing tariff schedule when it leaves the bloc.

“Nobody who understands trade law could possibly have said what he said,” Edward said.

The former judge also made broader criticism of the way the UK government was communicating its Brexit intentions.

“People talk about the single market as if it’s some sort of enhanced free-trade agreement,” he said. “They don’t understand the notion of the single market as a complete economic package.”

— Article 50 —

When the UK notifies its intent to leave the bloc, the country won’t be in the “driving seat” or be able to “insist on anything” when negotiating a possible deal with the EU, Edward said.

“It is a matter of dispute as to whether once you serve the Article 50 notice you can withdraw it unilaterally,” he said, referring to the part of the Lisbon Treaty that sets out how EU members can leave the bloc. “My personal view is that would be entirely matter of politics.”

The former judge also said there was “not the slightest evidence” that UK Prime Minister Theresa May was taking on board Scotland’s position in formulating her Brexit stance.

— Options —

Edward went on to discuss various trade deal options that have been floated so far, including those with Norway, Switzerland, Turkey and Canada.

“Let’s be clear: There are no options that don’t involve negotiation and possibly constitutional ratification in other member states,” he said.

“As an economist has said, there is no such thing in today’s world as free trade or a free-trade agreement. There is only managed trade or participation in a regulated market.”

“And that is quite important,” Edward added. “The notion that we can get back to some kind of Victorian liberal notion of totally free trade I think is totally misleading.”

— Individual rights —

Edward also stressed that “EU membership has created reciprocal rights and obligations for individuals, that includes companies, firms and other corporate bodies.”

“So, inevitably, the Brexit negotiations cannot be solely about relations between states,” Edward said. “They also have to include withdrawal or modification of individual rights.”

“And failure to protect individual rights adequately could give rise to court actions in the UK and also in other member states. And that could give rise to references to the Court of Justice of the EU. The outcome is unpredictable and the timescale is unpredictable,” Edward said.

“So the timescale is not even totally in the hands of the UK, the other member states or the EU institutions,” he said.

[@Lee]

what about people in other parts of Scotland, I mean Stirling is lovely but it's not the whole country is it?

 

We've already been warned Sterling will be hit hard and it has been...............

 

Oh, that Stirling..................