EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 1

[TonyB1965]

We've spent the last year or so painting the EU as the devil incarnate whilst claiming they will fall over themselves to please our every whim when we leave.

The whole point of the EU is that it is better inside than out. Do you really think they'll just turn round and go "just kidding" and give us everything we ask for?

This is all 100% politics and agendas.

Well you might have been but most of us haven't, any organisation that tries to take your sovereignty by deceit deserves all it gets, and that's exactly what they planned to do. Seriously, go and do some proper research and read up on the history of this corrupt and despicable organisation. Even now they think they can bully us into staying, if that doesn't give you a clue nothing will.

[TonyB1965]

So political union means political union does it.

Or is it a case that you wouldn't accept anything that gives overriding power or control to an outside body?

"So political union means political union does it." - it's pretty self-explanatory to me. I see what you did there, and just to avoid your not so subtle trap, and to be clear, I will never support any organisation trying to usurp our sovereignty, because that would be incredibly stupid if you value freedom as I do.

[trundlenut]

"So political union means political union does it." - it's pretty self-explanatory to me. I see what you did there, and just to avoid your not so subtle trap, and to be clear, I will never support any organisation trying to usurp our sovereignty, because that would be incredibly stupid if you value freedom as I do.

 

Words are words are words.

 

The WTO, UN, ICHR all can dictate to our government, so all usurp our sovereignty.  Every trade deal we do will require us to agree to the demands of the other side and almost certainly agree to oversight, rules and enforcement action by a higher power.  Look at TTIP, that's not a political union and has some massive sovereignty issues and many Brexit proponents were big supporters off it.

[gadgetman]

We are one of the EU's biggest markets, that's the upper hand we have, our trade with the EU has been declining with the EU for over 10 years and has been increasing elsewhere at the same time. Farage stepped down due to the amount of death threats and harassment he was receiving, he also achieved what he set out to do, it's that simple.

In all likelihood people would still buy the same premium brands even with tariffs. People will still want BMW, Mercedes, VW, Audi etc. They won't lose much of their customer base with tariffs applied.

It's going the other way which would hurt, which is why the car makers with factories here are getting twitchy. They don't sell enough of the cars produced on the UK to sustain the factories.

They're here because we're in the EU, part of a tariff free trading block.

We're a services country now thanks to Maggie & Blair. And the trade in services will be an interesting part of the negotiations. WTO doesn't cover it, only goods.

[@Lee]

Waits for the inevitable "ah, there's your problem right there, The Irish Times" comment......

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/chris-johns-theresa-may-joins-ranks-of-delusional-brexiteers-1.2819158

[Scribbler]

The whole point of the EU is that it is better inside than out. 

 

 

Symptomatic of stockholm syndome, whos told you that your Captive?

[Scribbler]

All this peripheral Guff is irrelevant.

 

Binary Choice as i see it. 

 

Does the EU function as a democracy = NO not in the true sense 1 Veto kills the will of the majority.

Does the EU have aspirations to control sovereign states and bring them under its own umbrella

effectively dissolving their Independence and assuming the EU as primacy in political affairs = Yes

 

Then comes the Choice

 

Are you happy becoming an EU state ? = Yes / No.

 

For me whatever happens short term to the economy is a side show for the real aim is self determination

a price myself and many others 17 million plus are willing to pay. The rest of you who wish to be governed

by a foreign power however its disguised as a customs union should probably consider moving.

[trundlenut]

Symptomatic of stockholm syndome, whos told you that your Captive?

Why was the EU formed?

What is it for?

Think, and stop making random comments.

[Scribbler]

Why was the EU formed?

What is it for?

Think, and stop making random comments.

 

Eugenics was a great 'idea' to improve the human race, To implement it would be abhorrent! As a project the EU probably had the right aspirations however this country had to make a decision over what we have now not what it aims to be or not what it was created for. My comments aren't random they are simple analogies to help you see the wider picture. That which over 17 million people can see. The remainers seam to be so focused on the minutiae of specific trade deals and regulations that they seam to forget the wider picture of long term gradual decline while we bring the rest of Europe upto our standards (which is impossible). We chose to take the red pill and wake up however unpleasant the reality. You lot seam to want the blue pill and not get unplugged. (Matrix Reference) presumably because the pound will be 1 pence stronger against the dollar / euro for a bit longer.

[cheezemonkhai]

Brexit could be halted after Government admits that MPs likely to have final say

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-could-block-brexit-deal-no-10-admits-a7368561.html

Honestly, if they do that then there will be riots.

They asked for the will of the people and then to not follow it.

Well a certain Mr Guido Faulkes comes to mind.

CE marking is a good thing to ensure the safety of the products we buy, after all we wouldn't want to buy a tumble drier that bursts into flames and burn the house down would we?

If that did happen I would think the EU would demand that those items are recalled and the owners compensated.

You'd think... Where have I heard of something like that happening and a recall not being issued. No compensation or anything.

Something similar with cars and lies against standards too.

Edited 20 October, 2016 by cheezemonkhai

[trundlenut]

Eugenics was a great 'idea' to improve the human race, To implement it would be abhorrent! As a project the EU probably had the right aspirations however this country had to make a decision over what we have now not what it aims to be or not what it was created for. My comments aren't random they are simple analogies to help you see the wider picture. That which over 17 million people can see. The remainers seam to be so focused on the minutiae of specific trade deals and regulations that they seam to forget the wider picture of long term gradual decline while we bring the rest of Europe upto our standards (which is impossible). We chose to take the red pill and wake up however unpleasant the reality. You lot seam to want the blue pill and not get unplugged. (Matrix Reference) presumably because the pound will be 1 pence stronger against the dollar / euro for a bit longer.

OK, don't then.

[@Lee]

OK, don't then.

[SkodaVRS1963]

Other eu countries are watching with interest. The UK will be made an example of your stop the collapse of the EU.

We'll get very little we want. Just enough to stop any impact on the rest of the EU, but I can't see what upper hand we have.

 

I suspect you are right.  In fact, I'm sure you are.

 

But what does that tell you about the EU?  Why would any organisation punish members wishing to leave?

[moley]

But what does that tell you about the EU? Why would any organisation punish members wishing to leave?

If the UK were given too good a deal, there would be a rush to the door of other countries wanting to leave.

[@Lee]

I suspect you are right.  In fact, I'm sure you are.

 

But what does that tell you about the EU?  Why would any organisation punish members wishing to leave?

I suspect you already know the answer to that question...........

[@Lee]

lol

 

[theezenutz]

IBTL

[@Lee]

IBTL

what's offended you or given you cause to believe the topic needs to be closed?

[@Lee]

Go on, tell me 'there's your problem, right there. The Financial Times'.

 

My city

 

https://www.ft.com/content/9d210ab4-9537-11e6-a1dc-bdf38d484582

[theezenutz]

what's offended you or given you cause to believe the topic needs to be closed?

No problem as such just think this topic is getting us nowhere fast, almost like were going around in spirals.

 

As for your above post that is actually quite interesting, it sparked a thought that the problem is more psychological than financial? I Came across an article almost as if it were synchronicity. It actually made a lot of sense to me and reminded me of Scribbler posts about Stockhome Syndrome.

 

It's a really interesting read Lee0 you should check it out.

Resistance is Fertile: The Art of Having No Masters - http://www.wakingtimes.com/2016/10/17/resistance-fertile-art-no-masters/

I

Edited 20 October, 2016 by theezenutz

[TonyB1965]

Words are words are words.

 

The WTO, UN, ICHR all can dictate to our government, so all usurp our sovereignty.  Every trade deal we do will require us to agree to the demands of the other side and almost certainly agree to oversight, rules and enforcement action by a higher power.  Look at TTIP, that's not a political union and has some massive sovereignty issues and many Brexit proponents were big supporters off it.

No they don't usurp our sovereignty and we can walk away from those organisations at any time if we want to, they do not have supremacy over our own laws unless we choose to let them, and we can easily revoke that. As for TTIP, I'm not sure what planet you're on but Brexiters are vehemently against that and always have been. I sure you can find the odd exception but in no way was the average person in favour of it. By voting Remain, by definition, you are in favour of it, so it's a bit rich to say the least to try and pin it on Brexiters.

[@Lee]

No problem as such just think this topic is getting us nowhere fast, almost like were going around in spirals.

 

As for your above post that is actually quite interesting, it sparked a thought that the problem is more psychological than financial? I Came across an article almost as if it were synchronicity. It actually made a lot of sense to me and reminded me of Scribbler posts about Stockhome Syndrome.

 

It's a really interesting read Lee0 you should check it out.

Resistance is Fertile: The Art of Having No Masters - http://www.wakingtimes.com/2016/10/17/resistance-fertile-art-no-masters/

I

I don't have time to read all that as I'm at home; perhaps tomorrow when I'm at work.

No surprise though that the article quotes Chomsky and contains references to The Matrix.

[trundlenut]

No they don't usurp our sovereignty and we can walk away from those organisations at any time if we want to, they do not have supremacy over our own laws unless we choose to let them, and we can easily revoke that. As for TTIP, I'm not sure what planet you're on but Brexiters are vehemently against that and always have been. I sure you can find the odd exception but in no way was the average person in favour of it. By voting Remain, by definition, you are in favour of it, so it's a bit rich to say the least to try and pin it on Brexiters.

Ha ha ha.

Walk away from UN and WTO. Quality!

[trundlenut]

No they don't usurp our sovereignty and we can walk away from those organisations at any time if we want to, they do not have supremacy over our own laws unless we choose to let them, and we can easily revoke that. As for TTIP, I'm not sure what planet you're on but Brexiters are vehemently against that and always have been. I sure you can find the odd exception but in no way was the average person in favour of it. By voting Remain, by definition, you are in favour of it, so it's a bit rich to say the least to try and pin it on Brexiters.

And lo for Boris did standeth atop the mountain and sayeth:

"It is Churchillian in that it builds transatlantic links, it is all about free trade, and it brings Britain and Europe closer to America. The idea is to create a gigantic free-trade zone between the EU and the US … There is absolutely nothing not to like about the TTIP."

[trundlenut]

No they don't usurp our sovereignty and we can walk away from those organisations at any time if we want to, they do not have supremacy over our own laws unless we choose to let them, and we can easily revoke that. As for TTIP, I'm not sure what planet you're on but Brexiters are vehemently against that and always have been. I sure you can find the odd exception but in no way was the average person in favour of it. By voting Remain, by definition, you are in favour of it, so it's a bit rich to say the least to try and pin it on Brexiters.

Then strode forth Michael Gove who did announce:

"Given scaremongering by 38 Degrees and the Labour Party on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP), your support would be very welcome in tomorrow's Backbench Business Committee debate.

I attach some background information and a myth-buster which colleagues may find useful; there is also a PRU [Parliamentary Research Unit] brief already published, and further briefing is available if you would like it.

Economic studies suggest a successful agreement between the EU and US could bring economic benefits of up to £10 billion annually to the UK – equivalent of almost £400 per household."