In other words, it's nothing really to do with the environment or people's health and just about reaping in more tax.... kinda like the WHO decrying vaping and advocating smoking tobacco as "a useful source of tax revenue", then?

 

Nothing is straightforward but yeah pretty much.

 

They want you to be greener but only through buying new green stuff not continuing to use your existing less green stuff.

It's not just about taxation it's also about supporting industry. Industry needs to make stuff and people need to buy it. If they gov took a policy of mend and make do and altered taxation and subsidies to suit, manufacturing would collapse.

 

the modern world is build on consumption

But if they just jumped to the end goal of very green, instead of ever so slightly greenly tinted, we'd have loads of new things to manufacture and be more green the more we did it...

Liberty have bought the Aluminium Works in Fort William that were to close and one of the products they are going to start casting is Alloy Wheels as a new product.

That will be from scrap.  Power for the Smelting plant is from Hydro & that is why it is where it is.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-38065536

They have bought the Steel Works in Motherwell (Glasgow ish) that Tata closed and that again will be scrap steel and lots of Electricity from the huge wind farms surrounding Glasgow.

 

Just need Hillman to rise from the ashes and we can have a proper small rear wheel drive rear engine hot hatch.

With a nice Electric motor in the back and battery pack in the front.

Edited 19 January, 20179 yr by Offski

Power stations are more efficient at generating energy than individual combustion engines so it's still a reasonable argument to concentrate energy generation to a few locations.  As for older 1st gen evs, well that's back to the point about governments not looking at whole life costs.  When we've all been forcibly moved to EVs expect an environmental outcry about mining for the relevant chemicals (like lithium right now) followed by some sort of punitive tax. The tax regime has already moved against low emission vehicles because it was too effective and lowered the tax take through VED and VAT.

 

Not actually true surprisingly.  As far as I am aware a power station ie boiler and stream turbine combo will be less than 50% thermally efficients, a slow speed diesel can be over 50% efficient.

 

The Renault Zoe 22 Kw/Hr battery pack can be swapped out for the new 41 Kw/hr pack.  The 22 Kw/Hr pack then can be placed into a static bank packs as Uninterruptible Power Supplies for a second life.    

Yes yes, no nasty stuff being chucked out the back, nice clean vehicles... but what about the places where all this stuff is made?

What about all the factories and plants using fossil fuels to make all this?

What about all the EV stuff that is 2 years old and only does 100 miles, compared to the newer stuff that does 250 miles?

 

We're still turning the wheels and burning the fuels of industry in order to make all this.

Not so clean...

Evolution takes time and commitment fires the gun.

It's the Elon Musks of the world doing the heavy lifting and the aim is for a NET reduction in emissions.

What's needed is a compatible infrastructure requirement from governments and penalties as a DISincentive for continued dirty old ways.

Dont think EV will work up here to good... commutes are long.  west coast folk have 100 mile plus drives to a city with nothing in between.

Those are the people that will not get one then if it does not work for them.

You can now do the North East  500 by EV.

& Super Unleaded can be more of an issue or even Unleaded or Diesel at times when having a nice jaunt by Shieldaig and around the area.

There can be more bother getting a filling station than an Electric Supply which you can get installed free.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-36547545

 

Nice that there are car clubs now if you have a EV and from the money saved you want to hire a Petrol or Diesel.

Nice that there is a fuel subsidy for Highland & Island areas but around the Moray Firth and even north there are Major Super Market Filling stations.

Edited 20 January, 20179 yr by Offski

Dont think EV will work up here to good... commutes are long.  west coast folk have 100 mile plus drives to a city with nothing in between.

It's not for everyone in any case. There will be many reasons to justify a diesel for quite some time.

It's really about the major capital cities in the short term.

Know what you mean, Im just outside the fuel subsidy.  Run bp ultimate diesel anyway. This topic just got my heart going a wee bit, just finished hybrid turbo and intercooler etc on my Vrs and deep down I know diesels will be on borrowed time, petrol too to be honest.   There is only so much crude oil.

 

We have the hottest year on record again last year so im all for EV's.....problem is by the time they are built, charged by electric etc they leave a similar carbon foot print dont they??

 

See we built a modern life where a vehicle is totally relied on, we are by the short and curly's.....  One thing is for sure, the federal banks, oil companies and governments are in bed together and the revenue generated by crude oil is huge so they will hold on to it for as long as possible at the cost of our carbon foot print.

 

It all feels like we are balanced on a knife edge with fossil fuel. This time in 20 year's will be interesting.

 

Off to get a horse.................................................

 

And also understand EV wont be for everyone but when fossil fuel starts to wobble then solutions need to be in place for transport for those in remote area's.

Edited 20 January, 20179 yr by Graffiti

Dont think EV will work up here to good... commutes are long.  west coast folk have 100 mile plus drives to a city with nothing in between.

Exactly; my neighbour has a Leaf, and by the shortest road route will still need to recharge before she can make Glasgow. OTOH my Octy TDi can do home - Glasgow return on one tankful by the longest route with no range anxiety.

Evolution takes time and commitment fires the gun.

 

Not really... if something is THAT good, people will adopt it far quicker than you think - Weapons have taught us that, as well as nations adopting the culture of invading 'armies'.

 

What takes time is the gradual step-by-step change that still allows people to turn a profit.

We could probably have had Thorium by the end of the 1960s, but too many powerful companies were making too much money. The same is true today with things like oil and tobacco.

When the mayors stand up for their residents health and act the gun will have gone off.

The manufacturers of mainly ICEs aren't all that keen on reducing the profit margins of the dealers but the writing is on the wall and they know they have to act to stay in business.

Not really... if something is THAT good, people will adopt it far quicker than you think - Weapons have taught us that, as well as nations adopting the culture of invading 'armies'.

 

What takes time is the gradual step-by-step change that still allows people to turn a profit.

We could probably have had Thorium by the end of the 1960s, but too many powerful companies were making too much money. The same is true today with things like oil and tobacco.

 

Exactly......man is buying evolution at the cost of the planet.          

Dont think EV will work up here to good... commutes are long.  west coast folk have 100 mile plus drives to a city with nothing in between.

 

I do not think there is anywhere in the UK that is more than 20 miles from a charging station...  https://www.zap-map.com/live/

 

There are now over 4,000 location points and they are being installed at the rate of over 150 a month. https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/

 

I do not think there is anywhere in the UK that is more than 20 miles from a charging station...  https://www.zap-map.com/live/

 

There are now over 4,000 location points and they are being installed at the rate of over 150 a month. https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/

 

 

Your not quite right,  Its barron up here for a lot of folk.  Drive 80 miles and sometimes not see a single car.  I could be wrong but when Im on the run out west all I  see is mountains?  in fact some roads travel 25 miles and just stop at a dead end.

Edited 20 January, 20179 yr by Graffiti

Bottom line, The carbon foot print of electric is as bad as diesel if not worse.  

.

Not the cars that need to change,  it's our lifestyle's.  But man need's tesco I guess.  And some folk will travel 60 miles plus up here to get to that tesco

Exactly; my neighbour has a Leaf, and by the shortest road route will still need to recharge before she can make Glasgow. OTOH my Octy TDi can do home - Glasgow return on one tankful by the longest route with no range anxiety.

 

The Nissan Leaf upgraded from 22 Kw/Hr to 30 Kw/Hr but that is still not really enough and this has now been trumped by the Alliance partner Renault with the 41 Kw/Hr Zoe.

 

The Zoe can go from John O'Groats to Ft William, have a quick charge whilst one grabs a quick lunch and be in Gretna in a similar time to a polluting diesel.  Distance 335 miles, journey time 8 hours similar to an IC car.   

I do not think there is anywhere in the UK that is more than 20 miles from a charging station...  https://www.zap-map.com/live/

 

There are now over 4,000 location points and they are being installed at the rate of over 150 a month. https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/

 

And you'd be wrong; by road distance Kinloch Hourn is at least 50 miles from an EV recharge point (source Zap Maps)

The Nissan Leaf upgraded from 22 Kw/Hr to 30 Kw/Hr but that is still not really enough and this has now been trumped by the Alliance partner Renault with the 41 Kw/Hr Zoe.

 

The Zoe can go from John O'Groats to Ft William, have a quick charge whilst one grabs a quick lunch and be in Gretna in a similar time to a polluting diesel.  Distance 335 miles, journey time 8 hours similar to an IC car.   

No-one would actually drive from JOG to Gretna via Fort William though; they'd stay on the A9 at Inverness, then pick up the M9 at Perth and be on M/way to Gretna.

More power stations to meet demand.

Electric cars have higher manufacturing emissions than normal cars. Electric cars also use electricity that has its own footprint. And put together these two factors are a ‘dirty little secret‘ that negate any climate benefit of electric cars!

Read more at http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green#KGgtDfcYjDd6DKGA.99

So that polluting diesel is no worse than the electric car?

And the electro magnetic frequency generated by electric cars will be dangerous! not to mention disposal of used battery elements?

Scientists are saying EMF'S are cancer causing, radiation etc produced by all the electric items we have are so bad for us. so, sitting inside a car generating massive EMF's is asking for trouble.

The wife bought an electric blanket as our rooms freezing. it was amazing having it on and watching a film. However one week later both our lower back's got so bad we could hardly move. On to Google, remove blanket, and bad backs gone the next day.

It's way too un researched on health impacts.

Im not endorsing fossil fuel, I hate it, hate relying on it. But when electric cars are glorified without research of carbon footprints or health impacts it is bewildering.

Edited 20 January, 20179 yr by Graffiti

No-one would actually drive from JOG to Gretna via Fort William though; they'd stay on the A9 at Inverness, then pick up the M9 at Perth and be on M/way to Gretna.

 

Lots of fast and rapid charge stations on the motorway network and A-road on the trunk network ie every 15-20 miles on the A9 and the A74.

More power stations to meet demand.   Electric cars have higher manufacturing emissions than normal cars. Electric cars also use electricity that has its own footprint. And put together these two factors are a ‘dirty little secret‘ that negate any climate benefit of electric cars!    Read more at http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green#KGgtDfcYjDd6DKGA.99

So that polluting diesel is no worse than the electric car?

And the electro magnetic frequency generated by electric cars will be dangerous! not to mention disposal of used battery elements?

 

 Scientists are saying EMF'S are cancer causing, radiation etc produced by all the electric items we have are so bad for us. so, sitting inside a car generating massive EMF's is asking for trouble.  The wife bought an electric blanket as our rooms freezing. it was amazing having it on and watching a film. However one week later both our lower back's got so bad we could hardly move. On to Google, remove blanket, and bad backs gone the next day.  It's way too un researched on health impacts.

Im not endorsing fossil fuel, I hate it, hate relying on it. But when electric cars are glorified without research of carbon footprints or health impacts it is bewildering.

 

A rapidly climbing amount of "Power Stations " are hydro, tidal or wind so have no carbon creating apart from their original build and eventually disposal and this equipment tend to have a 50 to 75 year lifespan.

 

What most worries me is people buying cars and then only doing less than 9k miles year.  In Paris the introduction of the Auto-Lib rental scheme has taken over 35,000 cars off the roads, mainly diesels, and some of these cars are hired up to 40 times a day for short journeys.  Much more efficient use of capital equipment.

 

Diesel engine cars have magnetic fields to with their alternators and motors and increasingly superconductors in their energy recovery systems.  Do we complain when we go for an MRI?  

I do not think there is anywhere in the UK that is more than 20 miles from a charging station...  https://www.zap-map.com/live/

 

There are now over 4,000 location points and they are being installed at the rate of over 150 a month. https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/

 

 

Not quite - a lot of those are private ones...   filter by 24hr public access with no restrictions and, in Sheffield for example, there is 1 charging point that, according to reviews - either isn't working or, when it does isn't working properly...

 

Or more closer to home for you - Worcester has...   None!

Edited 20 January, 20179 yr by skomaz

A rapidly climbing amount of "Power Stations " are hydro, tidal or wind so have no carbon creating apart from their original build and eventually disposal and this equipment tend to have a 50 to 75 year lifespan.

 

What most worries me is people buying cars and then only doing less than 9k miles year.  In Paris the introduction of the Auto-Lib rental scheme has taken over 35,000 cars off the roads, mainly diesels, and some of these cars are hired up to 40 times a day for short journeys.  Much more efficient use of capital equipment.

 

Diesel engine cars have magnetic fields to with their alternators and motors and increasingly superconductors in their energy recovery systems.  Do we complain when we go for an MRI?

Yes, I complain at MRI time but thats because the wife and I do everything we can to keep us and our wee one away from EMF'S.

Anyway the one off charge from MRI would be less than EMF by an electric vehicle over time surely?

As for hydro power. It destroy's the ECO system. Again power at the cost of the planet. I worked 4 year's for a fishery board, trying to catch salmon in traps before they reach the hydro dam. 3 % of hatchlings ( fry ) actually make it through the dam. Fact.

As it's too early to be giving support to electric cars I am undecided on which vehicle would be better. Evidence is key, and EC have not been around long enough to see there true impacts of a nation running them, straining the eco system.

Which ever way has the least impact on the planet I am for. It's the only option as we cannot change our use of transport.

Let's see the evidence. Either way I think the planet will suffer some how. Especially as an anti global warming supporter is about to become president in America. Slip a scientist ££££££££££ and EC all of sudden be amazing, or all of a sudden terrible. depends where the profit is.

G

As for hydro power. It destroy's the ECO system. Again power at the cost of the planet. I worked 4 year's for a fishery board, trying to catch salmon in traps before they reach the hydro dam. 3 % of hatchlings ( fry ) actually make it through the dam. Fact.

 

I don't have the evidence because it was pre-interweb, but I had a Summer job with the then NofSHEB. One of the things we did was count salmon and measure their ranges up-river.

 

We had significant populations of wild fish getting further up-river than they ever managed before the hydro dams were built. Your 3% is the proportion of smolts that survive a trip through a running turbine, not the proportion that make it from the dam loch into the river downstream of the dam.