Diesel days are numbered according to Renault, Peugeot & VW

[lol-lol]

17 minutes ago, Awayoffski said:

lol-lol Love the video if that was tax payer funded.

Showing hooning and ant-social driving, irresponsible driving and lack of concern for driving to the conditions offroad or on with ECO tyres that lack grip even in the dry.

 

It is a bit odd and show hybrids as well as pure EVs, fair crack for each of the major manufacturers though I suppose Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi can be a bit chuffed to see so much of their exposure but I suppose the Leaf is a British screwed together car.

 

The link was from the UK government VCA site so fully UK government endorsed etc one would think.

 

If my Zoe comes with the Michelins and they are A rated for wet grip and can be bought in 15, 16s or 17 inch diameter.  Bigger and wider tyres reduce range on diesels, petrol and EV cars as we know.   

http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/michelin-energy-saver-plus?fromTyreSelector=true&brand=renault&selectorMode=byCar&model=zoe&range=zoe&engine=electric&year=2012&zp=false&fromTyreSegment=1&carId=4W228579&dimensionId=energy-saver-plus-05982-455876-85233&originalFitment=185-65-15-88-Q  

[moley]

11 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

What an odd report.  (It is in a Murdoch outlet though).

It does mention PSA or Renault which are two of the three largest car produces in Europe.  

 

Let us hope Ford can improve its act as it might be another nail in the coffin for jobs at Ford Bridgend if they need to redesign and Ford decide to

move the jobs to Germany or Spain and the UK is selling less cars post BREXIT and Europe needs more petrol and EVs as Angel Merkel is professing ie 1 million EV in Germany in the next 3 years.   

 

Also this: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-paris-engines-exclusive-idUSKBN12E11K

In real-driving conditions, the French carmaker's 0.9-litre gasoline H4Bt injects excess fuel to prevent overheating, resulting in high emissions of unburned hydrocarbons, fine particles and carbon monoxide.

[lol-lol]

19 minutes ago, moley said:

Also this: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-paris-engines-exclusive-idUSKBN12E11K

In real-driving conditions, the French carmaker's 0.9-litre gasoline H4Bt injects excess fuel to prevent overheating, resulting in high emissions of unburned hydrocarbons, fine particles and carbon monoxide.

 

That could explain some of my driving experience yesterday when it was quite hot weather.  With the TCE 0.9 engine (H4Bt) engine I am quite often switching on and off eco button feature which affects all sorts of engine mapping details I gather.  

 

Middle of the days did lots of A road driving, eco button on, 60 mpg all quite sweet.  Down to Devon, load up the car with patio set and 600 litre of gear from the caravan, goes on rental from today, bomb back up to Worcester, speeds which I will take the Fifth Amendment on but 2 hours to do the journey, and much of the time without the eco button depressed and only 45 mpg and I think the eco button does reduce the boost pressure and absolute, probably, enriches the mixture when asking for all 90 hp from this little 898 cc engine.  It is relaxed to drive ie only 3K to 3.5K revs on the tacho and its 3 cylinder hum but I do and should feel a pang of guilt when not using the eco function.  I should chill out, set the cruise control a eco 60 mph, take another half hour to get there but that is easier said than done when one is hungry and tired.  

 

Ultimately governments form the policies to affect our choices.  The 0.9 TCE engine benefits from very low road tax, very good fuel economy so I get a nice low BIK figure for fuel supplied and to be declared on my annual tax Self Assessment.  Government policy has changed and now those cars pay a hundred quid a year more road tax, hence dealership pre-registered tens of thousands of them to avoid the VED tax hike.  Zoe just seems to make more and more sense as it each month goes by.  Diesel and petrol are looking like being consigned to the history books.  Tax on hydro-carbon fuel is just so easy to collect, it is the most efficient tax collect I recall from my HMRC days.  It will be good to have the choice of of taking EV or ICE depending on the journey, weather and current cost of gas.  

Edited 26 May, 2017 by lol-lol

[KenONeill]

Tax - That which is extracted from the workers.

[Ootohere]

Those that have never done a days work in their life but get tax payers money also pay tax / duties and VAT when they buy certain goods or fuels.

[skomaz]

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

From all the variety of sources of information, including the World Health Organisation, government policy is formulated at local and national level and that is resulting in taxation policy being implemented that affects us hence the UK introducing last month that only electric cars get no road tax and all other road cars will pay around £1K per 7 year, or more if it get escalated over the next budgets whereas EV pay nothing and in fact get a £5K grant from the government for purchase and installing a home charger.

 

In addition to this UK national policy there is local policy such as the London congestion charge which now applies to all cars except zero emission EVs and it is these types of policies which are pushing us to EVs because our electric officials are implementing the measures what ever the evidence is and us as consumers have the choice to go EV or stay on ICE.  VAT on fuel 20%, VAT on electricity, 5%.  At almost every point we are being pushed towards EV.  Embrace it or resist it and feel it in your pocket.  

 

   

 

£1k over 7 years is pretty much what I pay at the moment, if not less, so a non issue...

 

£5k grant is actually £4,500 IIRC and doesn't generally redress the premium that EV's cost over ICE...   yes there may be some savings in "fuel" but on an all-in cost per mile basis including depreciation and battery rental etc. on something like a Zoe is still significantly more expensive to run than any of my ICE cars have been.

 

You are right on Government policy though - it is being made on the basis of supposed 'evidence' that is, at best flawed and, at worst incorrect.

 

At some stage we will embrace EV but it'll be interesting to see how and when the 'crisis' or flaws associated with EV's are identified and recognised and what the Government reaction is.

[lol-lol]

On 5/26/2017 at 11:06, skomaz said:

 

£1k over 7 years is pretty much what I pay at the moment, if not less, so a non issue...

£5k grant is actually £4,500 IIRC and doesn't generally redress the premium that EV's cost over ICE...   yes there may be some savings in "fuel" but on an all-in cost per mile basis including depreciation and battery rental etc. on something like a Zoe is still significantly more expensive to run than any of my ICE cars have been.

You are right on Government policy though - it is being made on the basis of supposed 'evidence' that is, at best flawed and, at worst incorrect.

At some stage we will embrace EV but it'll be interesting to see how and when the 'crisis' or flaws associated with EV's are identified and recognised and what the Government reaction is.

 

As of last month, if/when one wants a new car, the non-pure EV has at least a £1K per 7 year advantage and this is only likely to increase.

 

I tend to look at the Fleet News figures and the Fabia 1.4 TDI DSG sits between the 22Kw and 41 Kw Zoe for running cost.  Such gaps have been closing month on month and depending on where fuel goes will change the maths. 

http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/costs/car-running-costs/compare-list/9426755,9426782,9703347 

 

Government grant is £4.5K for the car and £500 for the wall box which I suppose some might think that could b e a plus selling point for a house like and other features?  

 

National Governments (perhaps with the exception of the US which feels able to go its own way, even though states like California will go another direction under its state laws) feel compelled to go with WHO, Paris accord or other groups like the EU, which of course the will be able to be free of in 21 months time though if it does reject the EU regulation that may taint future trade deal possibilities.    

 

[Ootohere]

Not long until the 9th June when a Government is elected in the UK and then until the Transport Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the Prime Minister chooses have to get on with the Pollution Reduction strategy for the UK and whatever scheme for scrappage of the highest polluters and encouragement to low polluters & possibly EV's if the Government can sort out the appropriate Electricity Supply to the South of the UK if the demands were high other than off peak.

Edited 28 May, 2017 by Awayoffski

[Ryeman]

I wonder how many older Londoners hanker for the good old days of pea-souper fogs from codensation nuclei brought about by the coal burning home fires.

You actually needed fog lights then.

Sometimes good comes from clean air.

[Ootohere]

I have to smile at some posts recently by members with Stop / Start on new cars & wanting it disabled as switching it off just when the situation requires it is too much trouble.

They appear to be more mature members (older) that are obviously still alive through the decades of polluting cars & other sources and they want their vehicles while stationary to continue emitting emissions unnecessarily.

No idea if they give any thought to their grand children's health & life expectancy if they have any grandchildren.

Edited 28 May, 2017 by Awayoffski

[Gizmo]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

Government grant is £4.5K for the car and £500 for the wall box which I suppose some might think that could b e a plus selling point for a house like and other features?  

 

I wasn’t aware of this grant (for the home charger), but notice it is ‘only’ 75% so you would need a home charger to cost around £670 (fully installed) to get the full grant, still better than nothing though.

 

Will the dealer apply for all these grants when you order a car or does the owner have to do it?

1.  

   The key features of the Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme are as follows:  The grant is a 75% contribution towards the cost of one chargepoint and its installation up to a maximum of £500 (including VAT

   •  

[Gizmo]

21 minutes ago, Awayoffski said:

I have to smile at some posts recently by members with Stop / Start on new cars & wanting it disabled as switching it off just when the situation requires it is too much trouble.

They appear to be more mature members (older) that are obviously still alive through the decades of polluting cars & other sources and they want their vehicles while stationary to continue emitting emissions unnecessarily.

No idea if they give any thought to their grand children's health & life expectancy if they have any grandchildren.

 

It’s not quite that black and white though, for the driving I do (rarely in towns or stop start traffic) it would actually use more fuel by constantly cutting in.

I even did a trip through London yesterday and in reality it would have only been beneficial not being turned off maybe once or twice, the rest of the time it would again have used more fuel.

 

I am far from start stop systems but you need to pair it up with the type of driving done.

We are even considering an EV for the replacement of the Yeti, but most just do not ‘cut it’ I will not own anything tiny or nasty to drive over a long distance (so obviously anything with a range less than 200 miles is a non starter also) 

I certainly will not be buying a French car either!

Looks and build quality are important to me.

 

For us a hybrid would not really be an option either as the electric motor would rarely be used and lets be totally honest here if I am going to pay a premium for a low polluting vehicle then petrol is not exactly that great either! 

[Ootohere]

?

Do you mean use more fuel because it was stopped and then had to start again.

I was talking pollution and emissions, so is the whole thing a con, and not only does restarting use more fuel but produces more emissions while stopped and starting than if the engine was just running each few minutes it might be stopped?

[lol-lol]

15 minutes ago, Gizmo68 said:

 

I wasn’t aware of this grant (for the home charger), but notice it is ‘only’ 75% so you would need a home charger to cost around £670 (fully installed) to get the full grant, still better than nothing though.

 

Will the dealer apply for all these grants when you order a car or does the owner have to do it?

1.  

   The key features of the Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme are as follows:  The grant is a 75% contribution towards the cost of one chargepoint and its installation up to a maximum of £500 (including VAT

   •  

 

Renault just do the free home fit and use the £500. They actually get British Gas to do the fitting.  You have to have a suitable position etc.

[Gizmo]

2 minutes ago, Awayoffski said:

?

Do you mean use more fuel because it was stopped and then had to start again.

I was talking pollution and emissions, so is the whole thing a con, and not only does restarting use more fuel but produces more emissions while stopped and starting than if the engine was just running each few minutes it might be stopped?

 

Yes, before I disabled it then it would cut in at least twice and unto 5 times in my 32 mile commute, all of which were for a handful of seconds, yes I could have adapted my driving by using less pressure on the brake pedal to stop it cutting in but at 3am it isn’t really going to happen...

 

As I see it I am ‘doing my bit’ by using the latest EU6 engine anyway (c/w adblue) yes I could have bought a Fabia etc which will do slightly better mpg but are also much more tiring to drive than a big comfortable car loaded with safety features which is important to me when doing 20K PA. 

[Ootohere]

I have been monitoring fuel used for 6 months now in journeys through Aberdeen, Perth & Edinburgh in similar weather in similar gridlock traffic with Stop / Start functioning or disabled in a Euro 6 TDI DSG / SCR and stop start uses less fuel.

1,500 miles plus a month as well in the Dirty Diesel.

Horses for courses i suppose and location location location.

 

http://rbgrant.co.uk/renewables/ev-charging-points 

Edited 28 May, 2017 by Awayoffski

[kenfowler3966]

17 minutes ago, Gizmo68 said:

 

Yes, before I disabled it then it would cut in at least twice and unto 5 times in my 32 mile commute, all of which were for a handful of seconds, yes I could have adapted my driving by using less pressure on the brake pedal to stop it cutting in but at 3am it isn’t really going to 

I understand the engine stops at exactly the right crankshaft position for a restart with a cylinder ready to go under pressure ready to start instantly?

On the dsg cars between taking foot of brake and moving to accelerator the engine has restarted instantly and is ready to pull away!

Even if only stopped at idle for a few seconds this would use more fuel.

In the old carburettor days you would get a squirt of fuel to get the engine going, that is not needed now with fuel injected petrol cars and never applied to diesels?

 

[Ootohere]

On cars with DSG with  'Auto hold' your foot is not even on the brake, you just touch the accelerator.  Simples.

[KenONeill]

@kenfowler3966 - Big wow! I can't say for sure which they'll be, but pretty much any 4 cylinder IC engine will stop with one cylinder at TDC exhaust to intake strokes and another at TDC compression to power anyway. You don't need "stop-start", just basic mechanical engineering!

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, KenONeill said:

@kenfowler3966 - Big wow! I can't say for sure which they'll be, but pretty much any 4 cylinder IC engine will stop with one cylinder at TDC exhaust to intake strokes and another at TDC compression to power anyway. You don't need "stop-start", just basic mechanical engineering!

 

One of the biggest changes to Start-Stop, I gather, is getting rid of hideously heavy lead acid batteries for Lithium ion and Super Capacitors to make restarts much faster.    

[KenONeill]

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

One of the biggest changes to Start-Stop, I gather, is getting rid of hideously heavy lead acid batteries for Lithium ion and Super Capacitors to make restarts much faster.    

So now I need to have a device capable of administering a lethal electric shock in my car as well, to make a trace reduction in "pollution". Are you actually a mole working for "big oil"?

[skomaz]

10 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

As of last month, if/when one wants a new car, the non-pure EV has at least a £1K per 7 year advantage and this is only likely to increase.

 

I tend to look at the Fleet News figures and the Fabia 1.4 TDI DSG sits between the 22Kw and 41 Kw Zoe for running cost.  Such gaps have been closing month on month and depending on where fuel goes will change the maths. 

http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/costs/car-running-costs/compare-list/9426755,9426782,9703347 

 

Government grant is £4.5K for the car and £500 for the wall box which I suppose some might think that could b e a plus selling point for a house like and other features?  

 

National Governments (perhaps with the exception of the US which feels able to go its own way, even though states like California will go another direction under its state laws) feel compelled to go with WHO, Paris accord or other groups like the EU, which of course the will be able to be free of in 21 months time though if it does reject the EU regulation that may taint future trade deal possibilities.    

 

Just looked at that fleet site...   It doesn't seem to include the mandatory £59 per month battery rental...   Indicated on the Renault site in small print...???

 

Or are the prices quoted all in outright purchase prices???

Edited 28 May, 2017 by skomaz

[amwphotos]

1 hour ago, skomaz said:

Just looked at that fleet site...   It doesn't seem to include the mandatory £59 per month battery rental...   Indicated on the Renault site in small print...???

 

Or are the prices quoted all in outright purchase prices???

£19845 is the cheapest Zoe, which is buying the battery, so no monthly battery rental.

 

So their costs are wrong unless getting some discount. Adds about 2p per mile to running cost.

 

Also, this was based on 20,000 miles per year, which is high and serves to reduce the comparative cost per mile in electrics favour.

 

Also they specd up for a fabia that is much better than the Zoe! So not really a fair comparison.

 

Basically an economical diesel is still cheaper to run per mile than an EV, which is a shame really.

[Dr Zoidberg]

6 hours ago, amwphotos said:

£19845 is the cheapest Zoe, which is buying the battery, so no monthly battery rental.

 

So their costs are wrong unless getting some discount. Adds about 2p per mile to running cost.

 

Also, this was based on 20,000 miles per year, which is high and serves to reduce the comparative cost per mile in electrics favour.

 

Also they specd up for a fabia that is much better than the Zoe! So not really a fair comparison.

 

Basically an economical diesel is still cheaper to run per mile than an EV, which is a shame really.

 

The Zoe doesn't seem to be the cheapest EV to run once you factor in buying or leasing the batteries. A nearly new Leaf for many thousands less is more likely to save you money but you really need to have a fairly long commute that lets you maximise your mileage - either work and back on most of a full charge or even better to work, charge fully, then home again and charge overnight.

 

Either way, as EVs become mainstream expect taxation and economies of scale to stabilise costs at similar levels to HC fuelled cars.
No government could stand the loss of revenue from all aspects of motoring without huge cuts in public services, let alone encourage the investment required in generation and charging infrastructure.

[lol-lol]

10 hours ago, KenONeill said:

So now I need to have a device capable of administering a lethal electric shock in my car as well, to make a trace reduction in "pollution". Are you actually a mole working for "big oil"?

 

I admit it, I do work for one of the largest distributors in Europe of fuel, but then we do make electric cars as well, we also make LMP batteries and Super-capacitors so covering all angles.  Also one of the ten largest transport companies in the world so we are working to change the world's generation and usage of energy.

 

https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/international/negotiations/paris_en

At the Paris climate conference (COP21) in December 2015, 195 countries adopted the first-ever universal, legally binding global climate deal.  The agreement sets out a global action plan to put the world on track to avoid dangerous climate change by limiting global warming to well below 2°C.

Key elements

The Paris Agreement is a bridge between today's policies and climate-neutrality before the end of the century.

Mitigation: reducing emissions

Governments agreed

• a long-term goal of keeping the increase in global average temperature to well below 2°C above pre-industrial levels;
• to aim to limit the increase to 1.5°C, since this would significantly reduce risks and the impacts of climate change;
• on the need for global emissions to peak as soon as possible, recognising that this will take longer for developing countries;
• to undertake rapid reductions thereafter in accordance with the best available science........

Transparency and global stocktake

 

Governments agreed to

• come together every 5 years to set more ambitious targets as required by science;
• report to each other and the public on how well they are doing to implement their targets;
• track progress towards the long-term goal through a robust transparency and accountability system.

Role of cities, regions and local authorities

The agreement recognises the role of non-Party stakeholders in addressing climate change, including cities, other subnational authorities, civil society, the private sector and others.  They are invited to

• scale up their efforts and support actions to reduce emissions;............

Edited 29 May, 2017 by lol-lol