EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[moley]

We were issued with fuel rationing coupons in 1973 (I think it was 73), but they were never used, at least not in England. The coupons were originally printed for the Suez crisis in the 1950's. I might still have my coupons.

[Ootohere]

The British Isles are not huge but then there are lots of differences across the UK, and also in peoples memories.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/witness/december/15/newsid_4065000/4065969.stm

Edited 15 December, 2016 by Offski

[lol-lol]

Lol-lol, you could interpret a turd as a gold nugget. Obviously you picked a chart, based on the top 50 percent not 100 (see my previous comment on greatest difference between the have and have nots), that suited your argument, failed to read the rest to draw a conclusion which was actually spelled out for you at the end:

"Several factors are responsible for falling wages – not just in the UK, but across the developed world. Most convincing are poor productivity and changes to labour markets leading to greater wage flexibility. Also, growing inequality is a major issue, making low wage growth more problematic as the low paid see others in society gaining an increasing share.  Unfortunately, many of the structural factors behind low wage growth show no sign of immediate change – meaning low wage growth could continue for a significant time. This low wage growth is also more problematic when combined with rising living costs – especially housing for young people."

 

Not sure you were paying attention when you did your A level, Graduate or O level maths, the graph takes in to account all the people's earning but use in this case uses the median average rather than the mean or mode average.  I have linked a little ditty for you...  

 

I do agree with you on much of what you say but only that 1997 to 2007 most of the UK was going along quite nicely as wages kept paced with or actually went ahead of RPI (which includes housing), and the UK national debt was relatively low then but since then the governments have failed to deal with the financial issues and adopting very low interest rates, I agree with what you say, has allowed Landlord to build up massive empires of strings of properties to rent and priced young people out of the market.  Calls for rent control and increasing measures to halt the transition from predominately individuals owning their home to most houses being own by non-residence has continued at an alarming rate ie several percent per year moving over from owner occupier to landlord but then that is the return to a social model some want.  Productivity is much lower in the UK than in Germany or France due to investment and training which again is a UK trait.  Hopefully Sadiq Khan can make some impact as well as other large city majors but it is becoming clear that it is the lead is not going to come from laissez-faire government so needs to come from companies and more local government.     

[lol-lol]

We were issued with fuel rationing coupons in 1973 (I think it was 73), but they were never used, at least not in England. The coupons were originally printed for the Suez crisis in the 1950's. I might still have my coupons.

 

 

Who remembers schedule of blackouts when you would not have power that was delivered through the letter box during the Heath era?  Buying candles, makinbg sure your dinner was cooked before power off.

 

Having just moved back from Canada it was hard to take the changing in living standards.  Great decade though for music metal, punk etc.  

[The PM]

Yes I can, lol-lol, we then followed that with 5 years of chaos under Labour... I remember talking to our union rep in the late 70s saying how I supported Sunny Jim's attempt to control wages and inflation and him laughing at me and saying what they would do... No wonder there was  change of Gov in '79, by then most people had had enough.

 

'73 and '74 wasn't fuel rationing as such, it was shortage of fuel due to the Sheikhs playing silly beggars, petrol station just ran out and sometimes restricted what you could put in... I remember Dad had problems as he was a Commercial Traveller (as Reps were known in those days!) during that time...

[Ootohere]

Just Travellers as we knew them. I remember plenty that got upset if you called them a traveller when they thought of them selves as reps. 

(Changed now where Travellers have an encampment with nice Tin Homes to live in, one as a toilet, Vans & Pickups & some very nice Private Vehicles.)

 

The School Closures because of no School Busses and power cuts etc will again be a location location type thing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6729683.stm

Edited 15 December, 2016 by Offski

[lol-lol]

Yes I can, lol-lol, we then followed that with 5 years of chaos under Labour... I remember talking to our union rep in the late 70s saying how I supported Sunny Jim's attempt to control wages and inflation and him laughing at me and saying what they would do... No wonder there was  change of Gov in '79, by then most people had had enough.

 

'73 and '74 wasn't fuel rationing as such, it was shortage of fuel due to the Sheikhs playing silly beggars, petrol station just ran out and sometimes restricted what you could put in... I remember Dad had problems as he was a Commercial Traveller (as Reps were known in those days!) during that time...

 

I remember it coming to a head in 1979 but the other years were not so bad but the car strikes were a sad situation of bosses and workers not being able to find a Third Way and pretty much everyone losing eventually.

 

Yep the oil crisis in 73 I think plus the Three Day Week in 74.  If i had a Audi A4 then and it 1,000 mile range but then when you do that week it does not take long to get thru it and carrying 20 litre Jerry cans in the car is a bit scary.  One reason I want an EV is to diversify my fuel source to avoid such relieve on burning dinosaur remains and use clean energy from solar and wind, or nuclear from far away.    

[The PM]

Just Travellers as we knew them. I remember plenty that got upset if you called them a traveller when they thought of them selves as reps. 

(Changed now where Travellers have an encampment with nice Tin Homes to live in, one as a toilet, Vans & Pickups & some very nice Private Vehicles.)

 

 

Ooo! "Commercial" Traveller if you please, he retired in '75 after 50 years so was old school I suppose! How the meaning of words change over time, eh!

 

I remember it coming to a head in 1979 but the other years were not so bad.    

 

As said it's surprising how memory plays tricks... Maybe no 3 days weeks and fuel shortages but it was chaotic... I remember getting my letter saying I was starting on £800pa  (mid 70s) and then getting another letter, before i had started work, telling me it was now £1200pa! For another view of the late 70s and the winter of discontent '78/9 version:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent

 

http://www.ipa.org.au/publications/2185/when-everything-was-going-wrong-britain-in-the-seventies

Edited 15 December, 2016 by The PM

[skomaz]

Well im pretty confident your personal circumstances will be ok by the time you decide to go to Spain etc. But there is one sure fire way of improving your chances and thats injecting some positivity into the situation. Nothing ever got done by being negative and its actually easier to be positive i find than negative. We the public have been groomed for so long to believe we are reliant on external influences and that money is the only factor in happiness. Its difficult for some to even think positively about the future. The fact that things are already looking positive (from my perspective) in the face of this relentless doom and gloom negative forecasting is very reassuring. I still expect things to get worse before they get better but im prepared for it and looking forward to the separation. Although i will still be holidaying in France twice a year don't forget we are still European and connected by locality. Its only a separation in terms of governance.

 

Lol-Lol will be all doom and gloom until Brexit is dumped and Corbyn is in power...  God help us all if that ever happens!

[theezenutz]

"…..holding positive ideas (as important a step as this is) is not sufficient by itself to change the world. We still need direct communication between individuals, we need to translate our ideas into action, and we need to recognize the freedom of choice of those who choose alternatives different from our own." - Elaine Myers

 

Any person or civilization that does not learn from their past is doomed to repeat it. Control Paradigm interests are, however, served by mass ignorance. Ignorance is disempowering to the masses. This is rather obvious and has been used as a tactic by many tyrants across our history.

 

Borrowed yet very relevant it's well and good talking about the 70's and I'm sure that's very nostalgic for many, but the real issues exist today and only in the now can we actually look at and address the problems rather than comparing them to hardships of yesteryear but what have we actually learned? Massive portions of civilization are living today in conditions far, far worse than most in this country have ever witnessed. Why? Why have we put a man on the Moon 50 years ago yet still are unable to eradicate poverty or care for the most basic of Human needs?

 

Why aren't people asking the real questions? Why have People giving their Power over to a tiny, tiny portion of the total population of the Planet and then treat them as if they are biblicalesque miracle workers ready and waiting to walk on water for their loyal, devoted following of voters?

 

"Well schooled people are irrelevant. They can sell film and razor blades, push paper and talk on telephones, or sit mindlessly before a flickering computer terminal, but as human beings they are useless. " -- John Gatto

[Ootohere]

The thing is they felt like hardships at the time.

But people got a free education and grants, and mortgages and insurance with tax breaks, and married person allowance and lots of chances to have fun.

Good old bad old days.  People earned and got benefits and smoked and drunk and went out and life was fun.

People were mis-sold insurance but it worked out for many, and the Government sold off houses that were not yet paid for.

 

Good old days coming back, probably not. 

The Banks mis-sold PPI & skint the country good style.

[moley]

Who remembers schedule of blackouts when you would not have power that was delivered through the letter box during the Heath era? Buying candles, makinbg sure your dinner was cooked before power

The power cuts were scheduled. Our factory had power on Thur/Fri/Sat as an apprentice I went to college on Tuesday and still got 2 days Subsistence' pay for the days that we had no power. Happy days as I was better off. The miners strike was the root of the problem, but it transpired years later that Heath had plenty of coal for the power stations, but wanted to turn the country against the miners.

[theezenutz]

That's all well and good I often reflect back to my childhood with some very fond memories and some not so fond memories, it's natural yet unproductive unless it serves a greater purpose.

 

I can help but to refer to two of Einsteins "alleged" quotes which on the surface will seem hypocritical given the content of my last post, yet entirely relevant given what is continuing to reoccur throughout history if only dressed up and served in slightly different way.

 

"The definition of Insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result"

 

"You cannot solve a problem using the same level of consciousness that created it."

 

So again and I will keep repeating it hoping that at some point a seed may hatch into your sub-conscience. We will not make any kind of real, lasting, positive change until we first change the way we perceive and think about the issues. We will not get anywhere imo, by propping up and re-enforcing the same self defeating, destructive ritual practices. To quote KRS-ONE if I may.

 

The age of the ignorant rapper is done
Knowledge Reigns Supreme Over Nearly Everyone
The stereotype must be lost
That love and peace and knowledge is soft
Do away with that and understand one fact
For love, peace must attack
And attack real strong, stronger than war
To conquer it and its law
Mental pictures, stereotypes and fake history
Reinforces mystery
And when mystery is reinforced
That only means that knowledge has been lost   

 

And to quote on of my favorite comedians Bill Hicks the legend that he was.

 

[The PM]

The problem, though, is that when "the people" finally get fed up of the "ruling elite" and throw them out they then just get a new "ruling elite" who in many (most?) cases prove far worse than the previous lot... Show me one revolution that has not ended up that way...

 

"Socialism" as a concept is wonderful, trouble is that is doesn't take into account human nature and so has never worked in practice...

 

It's easy to say what we all should do, trouble is it never pans out that way...

 

So many people just look at History and decide that the status quo is perhaps the lesser of two evils...

Edited 15 December, 2016 by The PM

[@Lee]

Is this the EU referendum/ Brexit discussion thread or the 'ahhhh it's not like the old days though, is it?' thread?

[moley]

Is this the EU referendum/ Brexit discussion thread or the 'ahhhh it's not like the old days though, is it?' thread?

What it does show is that the problems of today are nothing new and a slight drop in the value of Stirling is nothing to get too excited about.

[@Lee]

What it does show is that the problems of today are nothing new and a slight drop in the value of Stirling is nothing to get too excited about.

We weren't tied into the EU then though. Now we have to renegotiate evrey single deal we have with TROTW.

 

Still, Ruuuuuuuule Britannia, Britannia rules the wavessss and all that. :wait:

 

Oh yeah,,,,,,,, we don't even have a fully functioning RN now do we!

[theezenutz]

The problem, though, is that when "the people" finally get fed up of the "ruling elite" and throw them out they then just get a new "ruling elite" who in many (most?) cases prove far worse than the previous lot... Show me one revolution that has not ended up that way...

 

"Socialism" as a concept is wonderful, trouble is that is doesn't take into account human nature and so has never worked in practice...

 

It's easy to say what we all should do, trouble is it never pans out that way...

 

So many people just look at History and decide that the status quo is perhaps the lesser of two evils...

Which is exactly why we "The People" need to change not just or necessarily the "ruling elite". We are to blame ultimately because we have let it get this point despite the simple fact that we "The People" outnumber those the "ruling elite" by such a huge number. So then the question arises. How do the few control the many? What methods and means to they use in order to convince billions of people that we need a few corrupt, selfish individuals to provide us with the necessary tools for seemingly unacknowledged self enslavement? "The prison without the bars"

 

We need a ®evolution, but not in the sense of chaos and bloodshed. It's a internal ®evolution and it begins now, with us. It begins with the latest generation of parents and children to show them the error of our ways, to point them in the right direction rather than conditioning them to follow in our dysfunctional footsteps.

 

 

 

Sometimes the most complicated questions have the most simple answers. Sometimes the biggest impact can come from places and people who you would least expect. Sometimes you may only need to realize that in order to change the World you only need to change yourself. Sometimes you also realize that one of the biggest and most important revolutions of recent history came from one man and his sandals, his name being the one they called Gandhi and he achieved this monumental feat using peaceful, non violent means.

 

And as he said " Be the change that you want to see in the World" I think you may begin to understand especially after recent events including Brexit and the American presidential campaign..... People are craving and needing a change. The question we must ask is do we want a change for the many or a change for the few????

 

Some food for thought perhaps?

[theezenutz]

For those who maybe interested in something a little different to the status quo, those who may or may not recognize the need for change may I leave you with one more short but sweet paragraph that sums it up rather well.

 

So, how does one manifest a change in the collective when there is a deeply rooted control paradigm in place and those in control are dedicated to maintaining their power at all cost? The control paradigm is heirarchial in nature with complete power and access to information restricted to the very top of the organizational pyramid. Such individuals are driven by greed and selfishness and care nothing for the well being of those whom they depend on for their wealth and power. The institutions that they have created have a consciousness and energy of their own and there are lower ranking minions who would gladly and cheerfully replace them if they were be removed from their position of power. Nothing can really change until the consciousness of the players changes. http://www.1paradigm.org/change.html

 

 

For those who don't or those who want to continue the perpetual cycle of pointless arguing then just take what you need and discard the rest or perhaps just scroll on past No offense to be taken and no offense ever meant

 

Sorry I did say short and sweet but I feel this adds to the overall message rather well.

 

The greatest strength and the greatest weakness of a control paradigm system is its heirarchial structure. With the restriction of information and power to the very top of the structure, everyone else is denied the information and power that is required to challenge or change the structure. It also means that those truly in control are small in number. How does seven thousand (or perhaps seven hundred or even seventy) versus seven billion sound? The real power is in the masses and everyone knows it.

     

If the masses were to suddenly and collectively grasp the big picture and the internal power that they possess, the entire system and dominant paradigm would shift instantaneously. This has not happened because the masses are divided and organized into conflicts against themselves. Wars, religious prejudices, distractions, disinformation and the struggle to survive in a manipulated economy make it difficult to find inner peace and see the bigger picture.

     

The shift is coming because it is necessary. Internal change is the engine of the shift. It is not surprising that greed motivated individuals with the perception of having a lot to loose are disinclined to accept change gracefully. It is worth remembering that one of the greatest revolutions in histoy was accomplished by the non-violent activism of Mahatma Ghandi.

Edited 15 December, 2016 by theezenutz

[trundlenut]

For those who maybe interested in something a little different to the status quo, those who may or may not recognize the need for change may I leave you with one more short but sweet paragraph that sums it up rather well.

 

So, how does one manifest a change in the collective when there is a deeply rooted control paradigm in place and those in control are dedicated to maintaining their power at all cost? The control paradigm is heirarchial in nature with complete power and access to information restricted to the very top of the organizational pyramid. Such individuals are driven by greed and selfishness and care nothing for the well being of those whom they depend on for their wealth and power. The institutions that they have created have a consciousness and energy of their own and there are lower ranking minions who would gladly and cheerfully replace them if they were be removed from their position of power. Nothing can really change until the consciousness of the players changes. http://www.1paradigm.org/change.html

 

 

For those who don't or those who want to continue the perpetual cycle of pointless arguing then just take what you need and discard the rest or perhaps just scroll on past No offense to be taken and no offense ever meant

 

Sorry I did say short and sweet but I feel this adds to the overall message rather well.

 

The greatest strength and the greatest weakness of a control paradigm system is its heirarchial structure. With the restriction of information and power to the very top of the structure, everyone else is denied the information and power that is required to challenge or change the structure. It also means that those truly in control are small in number. How does seven thousand (or perhaps seven hundred or even seventy) versus seven billion sound? The real power is in the masses and everyone knows it.

     

If the masses were to suddenly and collectively grasp the big picture and the internal power that they possess, the entire system and dominant paradigm would shift instantaneously. This has not happened because the masses are divided and organized into conflicts against themselves. Wars, religious prejudices, distractions, disinformation and the struggle to survive in a manipulated economy make it difficult to find inner peace and see the bigger picture.

     

The shift is coming because it is necessary. Internal change is the engine of the shift. It is not surprising that greed motivated individuals with the perception of having a lot to loose are disinclined to accept change gracefully. It is worth remembering that one of the greatest revolutions in histoy was accomplished by the non-violent activism of Mahatma Ghandi.

 

But who's John Hill and what's he doing way out in the woods?

[cheezemonkhai]

Looking for mushrooms whilst avoiding snakes? Maybe he is a badger hunter!

[gadgetman]

The looming Brexit betrayal

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/13/brexit-leave-voters-theresa-may-promise

[moley]

Oh yeah,,,,,,,, we don't even have a fully functioning RN now do we!

Unfortunately we only have the 5th largest navy in the world these days, but we're still in NATO.

[lol-lol]

Unfortunately we only have the 5th largest navy in the world these days, but we're still in NATO.

 

With the decommissioning of the Illustrious a few days ago from the data it looks like about eighth, in fact the RN is now smaller than the US Coast Guard.  With only 19 decent sized surface ships which is almost a halving from 2000.  Alway found it interesting going on these boat, and the subs, as the Customs Officer for the Naval Dockyard at Plymouth.  sad to see it so depleted.

Edited 16 December, 2016 by lol-lol

[lol-lol]

Lol-Lol will be all doom and gloom until Brexit is dumped and Corbyn is in power...  God help us all if that ever happens!

 

Glad to hear you say "until BREXIT is dumped".  

 

Corbyn is in his sixties and I would not be surprised to see him stand aside before the general election.

 

It is like have no government at the moment, or one making decisions based on the a few nationalist with very little knowledge of the subject.

 

I will be so busy implementing BREXIT I will hardly have the time to look up from the PC-terminal.