EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[The PM]

An awful lot of speculation and no facts, together with a lot of wishful thinking, same as previous posts, I can't be bothered any more...

 

 

 

 

 

 I take it you mean 'happy to let Scotland go', 

 

 

No I didn't, despite the attempts of Fishwoman and Fishman to change my view on the Union I still feel that we are all better of as the UK, just not part of the EU except as a trading partner, I voted for a Common Market, not to be ruled by the EU where I have no voice.

Edited 20 November, 2016 by The PM

[gadgetman]

Austerity failed. It racked up more debt faster. The deficit hasn't really dropped at all.

Now we have brexit and the fall out post Article 50 to deal with too.

That rosy utopia Boris etc promised is looking more and more distant. And if the area you live in is already struggling and less well off, it's only going to get worse.

[gadgetman]

I voted for a Common Market, not to be ruled by the EU where I have no voice.[/font][/color]

That's what our MEPs are for. They give our voice, the same way our MPs do.

Trouble is people think/thought electing MEPs who do sweet FA except moan about Europe, didn't protect your/our interests. They were never there to, or didn't bother to vote whilst all this 'bureaucracy' was being pushed through.

So if you really want to get angry at anyone, go after Farage/UKIP/Aaron Banks. Because they essentially handed Europe all this power in order to get their way to leave.

It's the greatest hoodwink of the people ever, and far too few have actually noticed yet. Why do you think so many prominent UKIP figures were so keen to distance themselves from the party after the win?

[@Lee]

That's what our MEPs are for. They give our voice, the same way our MPs do.

Trouble is people think/thought electing MEPs who do sweet FA except moan about Europe, didn't protect your/our interests. They were never there to, or didn't bother to vote whilst all this 'bureaucracy' was being pushed through.

So if you really want to get angry at anyone, go after Farage/UKIP/Aaron Banks. Because they essentially handed Europe all this power in order to get their way to leave.

It's the greatest hoodwink of the people ever, and far too few have actually noticed yet. Why do you think so many prominent UKIP figures were so keen to distance themselves from the party after the win?

Trouble is most people never engaged in politics let alone the politics of the EU; they just voted the way they always have 'cos that's who my dad voted for'. A lot of people probably couldn't even name their local MP let alone the MEP's for their region. (I'm lucky enough to have Farage and Hannan amongst others lol)

[Ootohere]

The PM.

Is Fishwoman & Fishman supposed to be about Nicola Sturgeon MSP & Alex Salmond MP or do you mean something else?

[gadgetman]

Trouble is most people never engaged in politics let alone the politics of the EU; they just voted the way they always have 'cos that's who my dad voted for'. A lot of people probably couldn't even name their local MP let alone the MEP's for their region. (I'm lucky enough to have Farage and Hannan amongst others lol)

Roger Helmer & Margot Parker here.

[Ootohere]

I not only know the MEP's names but also the Golden Handshakes they are inline for.

 

This delay in BREXIT must be stopping them getting off this Gravy TRain and climbing onto the next one, and also collecting on favours previously given.

At least Nige is making the most of the opportunity and filling his boots even more right now.

Sir Nigel Farage in the not too near future.  Services to her Majesty & her wealthy Ex Serviceman partner.

[trundlenut]

Austerity failed. It racked up more debt faster. The deficit hasn't really dropped at all.

Now we have brexit and the fall out post Article 50 to deal with too.

That rosy utopia Boris etc promised is looking more and more distant. And if the area you live in is already struggling and less well off, it's only going to get worse.

 

And having voted for something we all get to sit around whilst a small group of people decide what it is we actually voted for and what it will mean.  It could vary from the Norway model all the way to the end of manufacturing in the UK, get rid of the NHS and a whole basket of other fun things.  And the good bit is you'll get what you're given and like it, after all it is what we voted for!

[gadgetman]

And having voted for something we all get to sit around whilst a small group of people decide what it is we actually voted for and what it will mean. It could vary from the Norway model all the way to the end of manufacturing in the UK, get rid of the NHS and a whole basket of other fun things. And the good bit is you'll get what you're given and like it, after all it is what we voted for!

Which again is why the much slated high court case & ruling is so important which ever side you voted for.

[The PM]

That's what our MEPs are for. They give our voice, the same way our MPs do.

 

 

Err no they don't. There are 751 MEPs and only 73 are from the UK. Even if they all voted the same way they couldn't get anything through the European Parliament on their own. So whilst they can have opinions on things they can't change anything without help from other MEPs from other countries who also have their own country's interests to think about.

 

That is a totally different scenario to the UK/Scottish/Welsh Governments where there is a clear leading party who are able to get things done, even if we don't agree with them...

 

 

 

(Yes, Offski, I was referring to them, nicknames I picked up when I was in Scotland a few years ago which I thought apt for them!)

[Ootohere]

Their party was voted into govern Scotland and then 56 out of 59 MP's for Scottish Constituencies went off to Westminster from the General Election vote, so they have supporters.

(some no longer members while enquiries continue.....)

 

So basically the SNP does have a mandate to carry on with things that many in Scotland and elsewhere that voted want.

Just not to oppose BREXIT.

[gadgetman]

Err no they don't. There are 751 MEPs and only 73 are from the UK.

So we hold over 10% of the Parliament so have a much greater say than many of the other 27 member states so should easily have a greater influence. But sadly thanks to UKIP our actual say is less than 4%. Even the Tories & Labour put party aside for the interests of the UK. UKIP only care about UKIP.

If people want europe to work for them and for the UK to have had a greater influence then they'd take more of an interest in what UKIP are actually up to instead of the stupid practice of voting for them in protest at the local & national representatives from the UK parties. It ultimately had achieved nothing and left us in the perceived mess we're in with Europe.

The European democratic system only works if people take an interest in what they do, rather than complain about it.

Far too many people are apologists for UKIP and their complete disregard for the interests of the UK people. Rather than a peerage, I'd much rather see Farage & Co were tried for treason.

[lol-lol]

Austerity failed. It racked up more debt faster. The deficit hasn't really dropped at all.  Now we have brexit and the fall out post Article 50 to deal with too.

That rosy utopia Boris etc promised is looking more and more distant. And if the area you live in is already struggling and less well off, it's only going to get worse.

 

Austerity has prolonged the economic recovery by several more years and whilst narrowing the gap between receipts and spending has slowly happened, from a £150B in 2009 to £75B annual gap in 2015/16, the UK national debt has grown from £800B to £1.6T now.

 

Sadly the BREXIT vote and the consequence on the UK trade imbalance is now adding and extra 1 to 2 Billion to that £6 Billion a month figure causing the UK Government plan to eliminate the receipts/spending gap by 2020.

 

Plenty of figures available to those who want to look them up but what will Hammond do redress the UK government imbalance in the books?  Who will be asked to pay the piper since public servants have been squeezed so much?   Apparently even the Triple lock pension promise may be "reviewed".

[Huwcymru]

I think the Parliamentary guideline printed here are fundamental and seem to be reugularly forgotten. Allied to this, 46 million not voting, unable to vote or voting against the referendum, how can 17 million decide the fate of 65 million in a parliamentary representative  democracy which is what our sovereign government is - we do not run the country by mob rule.

Edited 20 November, 2016 by Huwcymru

[@Lee]

Who reads the papers..........?

 

[The PM]

So basically the SNP does have a mandate to carry on with things that many in Scotland and elsewhere that voted want.

 

 

NOT to vote on English and Welsh only matters at Westminster, though, which was the point I made!

 

So we hold over 10% of the Parliament so have a much greater say than many of the other 27 member states so should easily have a greater influence.Even with 10% 

 

Even with 10% our influence is minimal. You discount UKIP, though they also have links with other parties in the EU so do have some influence, just the same as Labour and the Tories and their links, though as i said those links also look after their own country's interests... The fact remains that compared to Westminter, Holyrood and the Senedd the elected MEPs have very little say in what the EU as a whole decide to do.

 

I think the Parliamentary guideline printed here are fundamental and seem to be reugularly forgotten. Allied to this, 46 million not voting, unable to vote or voting against the referendum, how can 17 million decide the fate of 65 million in a parliamentary representative  democracy which is what our sovereign government is - we do not run the country by mob rule.

 

Where do you get 46 million "not voting" from? If you are including children in that figure then that is really clutching at straws.

 

There's "Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics" so to put another slant on it...

 

17.4m voted out

16.1m voted in.

12.9m didn't vote, though they had the chance to.

 

If you didn't take the opportunity to vote then, by default, you accept the decision of the majority vote of the rest, after all if you felt that strongly you should have voted...

 

That then gives a much higher percentage in favour of leaving, just as it would have if the vote had gone the other way!

 

As I said statistics can be made to say anything you want!!

 

As for the Bill, that's not what it said in the leaflet which said that the Government would implement the will of the people... Or was that one of Remain's lies as opposed to those of Leave's?

[@Lee]

 

As for the Bill, that's not what it said in the leaflet which said that the Government would implement the will of the people... Or was that one of Remain's lies as opposed to those of Leave's?

 

This leaflet? https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

 

 

This is your decision. The

Government will implement

what you decide.

The thing they neglected to mention in that is that the referendum was only advisory. They didn't bank on a court case either. Because sovereignty.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35990076

[SkodaVRS1963]

Looks like Andrew Neil has torn up and spat out a leading Remainer's claims and exposed he and his ilk as, well, liars.

 

Parental guidance warning though: on a scale of 0 to 10, this is 11 on the cringeworthy reading:

 

HERE

[trundlenut]

Looks like Andrew Neil has torn up and spat out a leading Remainer's claims and exposed he and his ilk as, well, liars.

Parental guidance warning though: on a scale of 0 to 10, this is 11 on the cringeworthy reading:

Just goes to show that leave had better liars.

[SkodaVRS1963]

Just goes to show that leave had better liars.

 

Did you even view the interview?

 

It was embarrassing.

[trundlenut]

Did you even view the interview?

It was embarrassing.

It goes to show leave had better liars.

[SkodaVRS1963]

It goes to show leave had better liars.

 

Um, it doesn't but shall we leave it there?

 

:yawn:

[Ootohere]

People might not know the well paid job James McGrory had.

Deputy Communications Director to the fabulous but hopeless Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg MP.   

Liberal Democrats are without doubt the ones that rode the gravy train the longest and are still on it.

[@Lee]

Who was he constantly looking at?

[trundlenut]

Um, it doesn't but shall we leave it there?

:yawn:

Where we are now says it does.