EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[trundlenut]

1 minute ago, CWARD said:

 

Is this like a game of Top Trumps?  China has more SEO's than the whole of the EU. I win. 

My turn and I pick population. I think I might win again with China. 

 

BTW. I think North Korea wins for highest percentage of state owned companies. 

China's not in the oecd, so your use of very specific definitions suppers you. 

 

If the comparison is between the number of state owned/controlled entities in the UK versus Germany then based on number, employees and money Germany massively outstrips the UK. This suggests that the most successful economy in mainland Europe has somehow managed to do this despite the massive burden of a large publicly controlled sector, that the UK has spent years trying to rid itself of. 

[lol-lol]

Nicely put.

 

Some would rather fail in splendid isolation rather than learn from those who show how to be successful.

 

Much of what Germany does is mirrored in the Labour manifest published today.

Edited 16 May, 2017 by lol-lol

[CWARD]

6 minutes ago, trundlenut said:

China's not in the oecd, so your use of very specific definitions suppers you. 

 

And still a key partner

 

Key partners

In May 2007, the Council, meeting at ministerial level, invited the Secretariat to strengthen OECD cooperation with Brazil, India, Indonesia, the People's Republic of China and South Africa through "Enhanced Engagement" programmes. These Key Partners contribute to the OECD's work in a sustained and comprehensive manner. 

A central element of this cooperation is the promotion of direct and active participation of the Key Partners in the work of substantive bodies of the Organisation. 

[trundlenut]

1 minute ago, CWARD said:

 

And still a key partner

 

Key partners

In May 2007, the Council, meeting at ministerial level, invited the Secretariat to strengthen OECD cooperation with Brazil, India, Indonesia, the People's Republic of China and South Africa through "Enhanced Engagement" programmes. These Key Partners contribute to the OECD's work in a sustained and comprehensive manner. 

A central element of this cooperation is the promotion of direct and active participation of the Key Partners in the work of substantive bodies of the Organisation. 

For someone who went on a semantic deep dive over the exact definition of nationalised companies versus state owned versus state owned stakes to claim that difference between not in the oecd and in the oecd doesn't matter is funny. Carry on Sir Francis.

[CWARD]

The OECD definition of an State Owned Enterprise was the one in the PWC report posted on here by someone talking about nationalised companies, even though they are too different things. 

The definition is exactly that. A definition. You don't have to be a member of the OECD to have SEO's. They existed prior to organisation been formed and many countries that weren't and still not part of it. 

You have the internet or possibly a dictionary, use it to understand the meaning of a term before using it. 

You may also wish to see what many of these SEO's are as the vast majority are at local government level performing tasks that a council department over here would perform from adult social care to refuse. I would welcome the efficiencies of such SEO's without the bureaucracy and waste of local councils. I don't think council workers would be as welcoming though. 

[CWARD]

BTW, most of the information is in the PWC report, you just need to read it instead of just making quotes. 

[Ootohere]

I was reading a couple of days ago about an investigation into Senior Union Officials on the Workers Board at VW over how much they are being paid more than they should be which is as a worker and nothing more because the position on the board is an honour.

 

I think that was what it was.

The German Authorities seem to be investigating a lot with the VW Group but then even non nationalised companies seem to be the tail that wags the dog...

[trundlenut]

17 minutes ago, CWARD said:

The OECD definition of an State Owned Enterprise was the one in the PWC report posted on here by someone talking about nationalised companies, even though they are too different things. 

The definition is exactly that. A definition. You don't have to be a member of the OECD to have SEO's. They existed prior to organisation been formed and many countries that weren't and still not part of it. 

You have the internet or possibly a dictionary, use it to understand the meaning of a term before using it. 

You may also wish to see what many of these SEO's are as the vast majority are at local government level performing tasks that a council department over here would perform from adult social care to refuse. I would welcome the efficiencies of such SEO's without the bureaucracy and waste of local councils. I don't think council workers would be as welcoming though. 

You were very critical of lol-lol's terminology and made very specific semantic points to try and demonstrate he was wrong. Then when you took a fast and loose approach you complain others are being too pedantic. It's make your mind up time. 

[lol-lol]

10 minutes ago, CWARD said:

BTW, most of the information is in the PWC report, you just need to read it instead of just making quotes. 

 

It is PwC or pwc not PWC.

 

Alumni.

[CWARD]

Would you prefer PriceWaterhouseCoopers as well as they were formerly referred to too or should we just deflect from the fact that you know jack **** of what you're talking about. 

6 minutes ago, trundlenut said:

You were very critical of lol-lol's terminology and made very specific semantic points to try and demonstrate he was wrong. Then when you took a fast and loose approach you complain others are being too pedantic. It's make your mind up time. 

 

Critical because he went on to arrogantly ridicule others on this subject when he doesn't even understand what the question was or what he quoted in reply and not for the first time either. 

[trundlenut]

7 minutes ago, CWARD said:

Would you prefer PriceWaterhouseCoopers as well as they were formerly referred to too or should we just deflect from the fact that you know jack **** of what you're talking about. 

 

Critical because he went on to arrogantly ridicule others on this subject when he doesn't even understand what the question was or what he quoted in reply and not for the first time either. 

Misunderstanding the question and sailing off in a different direction seems to be catching. 

[CWARD]

So I've seen

 

[lol-lol]

7 hours ago, CWARD said:

Would you prefer PriceWaterhouseCoopers as well as they were formerly referred to too or should we just deflect from the fact that you know jack **** of what you're talking about. 

 

Critical because he went on to arrogantly ridicule others on this subject when he doesn't even understand what the question was or what he quoted in reply and not for the first time either. 

 

Wrong again.

 

Small "w" not big "W".

 

I was recruited by Price Waterhouse in 1997 so was there for the merger in 1998 with Coopers & Lybrand and it was a very interesting time and one recalls in the processes of deciding what name to use going forward.  The three issues I recall which were high on the agenda were:-

1. The best name to use going forward and as can be seen the Lybrand was dropped and it was decided Price Waterhouse had the stronger brand identity hence it led in the new name concatenation.
2. Also of great interest was which font to use ie Arial (C&L) or Times New Roman (PwC).  Big issue which surprised me.
3. Which Credit card to use as the we in PW used AmEx and C&L used Visa.  We went with AmEx      

 

Even after all these years I remember the logo when it first came out and how the secretaries groaned with having to incorporate in letter heads and documents.       http://www.pwc.com/         (All rights recognised)

Ah Nostalgia....

 

Edited 17 May, 2017 by lol-lol

[CWARD]

PwC (sorry wrong font and colour), pwc it's a logo. It has nothing to do with the debate only a pathetic attempt in deflecting from you knowing jack all. Not for the first time as you've been found to a be Walter Mitty in other threads. 

You may have been at PwC (happy with the logo) but you could have been their window cleaner for all I know as you certainly know nothing about you've copy and paste. It would be like me bragging about having being in the HM Forces and trying make out like I know about Nuclear Submarines. 

Go and cut something from a website to paste. Please don't talk about CocaCola. I've no chance of getting their logo right, a bit like your quoting. 

Edited 17 May, 2017 by CWARD

[Ootohere]

PricewaterhouseCoopers or should that be Pricewaterhouse Coopers now regularly under investigation over audits they do like with BHS.

Being sued for billions, have employees that can not hand over the correct envelope at the Oscars.

PwC maybe need someone to audit them and do a report on just how good they really are.

[lol-lol]

Dear Mr CWARD

 

The points made by others, and by me, above is that the German State makes a huge success of having large ownership interests in thousands of German, and companies of other countries like the UK too, so that it has influence and reaps rewards of such ownerships.

 

Why would PwC recruit me from HM C&E, as we were then before the merger with Inland Revenue, to clean windows?  As they do they recruit the brightest and the finest, offered me a near doubling of my Customs Officer salary plus a growth path, international travel to visit Multi National Corporations and work with some of the very brightest people.  It does not matter, to me, if you accepted what I say it is for the wider audience to consider points that they may not have been aware of.

 

You can support a hard BREXIT agenda as is your democratic right.  The Cons, I am sure, wil look after me on a personal level as they have already committed to raising the starting rate for the higher rate of taxation, which they moved from £43K standard to £45K pa last month and have said they want to move it £50K by 2020 but I do not agree with their policies on BREXIT or the UK National Health Service or education as I believe it is socially unfair and I think the UK can learn from how other countries do economics better than we in the UK currently do.  The important matters are how the election goes and then BREXIT which I fear could be very adverse for the UK bringing about a downturn of several percentage points and I hope points mentioned above spur some to vote accordingly.  

 

Worth considering private health, making sure children and grandchildren are supported though good education considering the way these things are being driven currently.

 

 

PS - Before I was Customs I was an Officer in the Merchant Navy (twice an Officer) and my branch was Engineering so do know a bit about nuclear powered submarines and have been on many of them whilst clearing them in to Plymouth, including the Submarine pens.  Sadly never got to look around the engine room, the actual reactor to propulsion would be particular interesting from my background.  Hunt for Red October is one of my favourite films, except for Sean Connery Scottish accent as the Commander and Tim Curry as the Political Officer as I keep expecting him to break in to song as Frankfurter from Rock Horror Picture show.

 

You have a nice day and be safe on those bikes in this slippy weather.       

 

 

 

[lol-lol]

35 minutes ago, Awayoffski said:

PricewaterhouseCoopers or should that be Pricewaterhouse Coopers now regularly under investigation over audits they do like with BHS.

Being sued for billions, have employees that can not hand over the correct envelope at the Oscars.

PwC maybe need someone to audit them and do a report on just how good they really are.

 

They do have some issue sometimes.   Being massive ie about 150k employees (?) and 25 Billion USD turnover, bound to be a few slips.

Even Elton John sued PwC, but then he did lose.    

 

Maybe, a thought I have had for some while, Audit firms should not be allowed to red-audit a firm successively ie one must change ones audit firm every so often so firms effectively audit each other's work?   PwC's audit statement guide....

https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/services/audit-assurance/publications/understanding-financial-audit.html    

 

When I was with Her Majesties Customs & Excise we did think long and hard about even using the terms Audit as we did not give an audit statement.  Terms like " Health Check" or verification visit seem to be more vogue.

 

"to err is human; to forgive, divine" (Alexander Pope, "Essay on Criticism").

 

Errare humanum est, sed ut sit nobis clades adhibendum est computatrum.      

 

 

Edited 17 May, 2017 by lol-lol

[CWARD]

On 2017-5-14 at 18:57, lol-lol said:

 

I have provided the report from the world's largest consultancy firm, you have the word of a travelling mechanic and an ex-NCO, got anything else? 

 

You reported the wrong facts and then went onto to insult the people who asked you a simply question that you hadn't answered correctly as you were talking about state owned enterprise rather than nationalised companies as asked. A very distinct difference that as someone who was headhunted PWC " As they do they recruit the brightest and the finest" would have known as much.

I have plenty of friends who work for PWC and KPMG, both headhunted and direct from Uni, who I can discuss these matters with and understand the meanings quite clearly. Their understanding of economics is also very clear and the basics never confused as you've have done previously.

 

Quote

You can support a hard BREXIT agenda as is your democratic right.  

 

I can't say that I've ever wanted that. I would rather have a workable agreement than one forced on us.  

 

Quote

I do not agree with their policies on BREXIT or the UK National Health Service or education as I believe it is socially unfair and I think the UK can learn from how other countries do economics better than we in the UK currently do

 

Nor do I and Labour don't have the answer either but as a swing voter I pick the party the that represents my view the most which is mainly centre. As someone who has two brothers with cerebral palsy I am more than aware of the social injustice and talk from first hand experience rather than just quotes. I am more than aware of the huge wastage in the public sector where this money could be going directly to the people who need it.  I have no problem with the UK operating more SEO's to deliver services as they are more efficient with the tax payers money with part of the profits been recycled back into the budget.   

 

When you start to understand what you're quoting then I'll stop thinking of you as a Walter Mitty. 

 

 

 

 

[lol-lol]

12 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

You reported the wrong facts and then went onto to insult the people who asked you a simply question that you hadn't answered correctly as you were talking about state owned enterprise rather than nationalised companies as asked. A very distinct difference that as someone who was headhunted PWC " As they do they recruit the brightest and the finest" would have known as much. I have plenty of friends who work for PWC and KPMG, both headhunted and direct from Uni, who I can discuss these matters with and understand the meanings quite clearly. Their understanding of economics is also very clear and the basics never confused as you've have done previously.  I can't say that I've ever wanted that. I would rather have a workable agreement than one forced on us.   Nor do I and Labour don't have the answer either but as a swing voter I pick the party the that represents my view the most which is mainly centre. As someone who has two brothers with cerebral palsy I am more than aware of the social injustice and talk from first hand experience rather than just quotes. I am more than aware of the huge wastage in the public sector where this money could be going directly to the people who need it.  I have no problem with the UK operating more SEO's to deliver services as they are more efficient with the tax payers money with part of the profits been recycled back into the budget.   When you start to understand what you're quoting then I'll stop thinking of you as a Walter Mitty. 

 

I think we seem to agree on a lot more than I initially thought, great.  I did not realise that "Walts" was such a UK military term....

Vaguely remember the Danny Kaye film version, have not seen the Ben Stiller version, not my cup to tea prefer more action/adventure.  

 

I am not here to make you understand macro-economics, just promoting a bit of left field, lateral thinking so we do not continue on the disastrous path we are currently heading.  Take some of it on-board, do not, matters not.  

Best wishes for you and yours.   

 

-----------------------------------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Mitty

British military slang[edit]

Individuals who impersonate serving or retired members of the armed forces are known as "Walts" in the British Armed Forces,^[12] a shortened form of the name "Walter Mitty". In the United Kingdom it is an offence under the Armed Forces Act 2006 to wear real or replica military decorations with intent to deceive.^[13]   In his book on selection for the Special Air Service, Andy McNab wrote that soldiers from other units who were applying to join, who give away the fact they were motivated by reasons of personal vanity were labelled as "Walter Mitties"^[14] and quietly sent home.^[15][16][17] 

Such an example of this in a military context is Iain Duncan Smith MP who lied about both his military record and army ranking.

 

 

[KenONeill]

Where's the old popcorn emoticon when you really need it?

 

Or failing that a "handbags at dawn" one?

[CWARD]

16 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

I am not here to make you understand macro-economics

 

Phew! That's a relief, I'd hate for you to embarrass yourself again.

 

17 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

just promoting a bit of left field, lateral thinking so we do not continue on the disastrous path we are currently heading

 

Thank you but I prefer to actually take the views of people who have experienced than a cut and paste champagne socialist.  As they say you can't beat experience. 

 

PS. I like your high lighting of a Tory in the Wikipedia cut and paste to make your political point. Just to add balance I give you the case of Dr David Kelly labelled by the Labour government as a Walter Mitty so we could go to war, which led to his suicide. Have Charmaine Bowers too. Paul Nuttall.  

[CWARD]

12 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

Where's the old popcorn emoticon when you really need it?

 

Or failing that a "handbags at dawn" one?

 

Just no time for bull ****ers. 

 

Would a pack of hob nobs do instead

[skomaz]

14 hours ago, trundlenut said:

If the comparison is between the number of state owned/controlled entities in the UK versus Germany then based on number, employees and money Germany massively outstrips the UK. This suggests that the most successful economy in mainland Europe has somehow managed to do this despite the massive burden of a large publicly controlled sector, that the UK has spent years trying to rid itself of. 

 

I would respectfully suggest that the success of Germany in relation to the state owned / controlled entities is largely because the latter are well organised and well run, in the manner that a private enterprise would be.  Unfortunately that is not the situation in the case of many of the similar publically run  / owned entities in the UK.  I have seen it first hand and, whilst there are examples of good practice and responsibility within such UK entities there is far more of the opposite and vast waste of resources and money that would not be tolerated in the private sector.

[trundlenut]

30 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

I would respectfully suggest that the success of Germany in relation to the state owned / controlled entities is largely because the latter are well organised and well run, in the manner that a private enterprise would be.  Unfortunately that is not the situation in the case of many of the similar publically run  / owned entities in the UK.  I have seen it first hand and, whilst there are examples of good practice and responsibility within such UK entities there is far more of the opposite and vast waste of resources and money that would not be tolerated in the private sector.

Quite likely, but that wasn't the point being made. 

[skomaz]

4 minutes ago, trundlenut said:

Quite likely, but that wasn't the point being made. 

 

Noted - but it was a relevant point in the context of the ongoing discussion and the point you raised with regard to success or otherwise and the interaction with the publicly controlled sector...   and thus a valid one to make.