Coolant temp sensor - wrong size replacement

[Santa2512]

Picked up a replacement temp sensor for the project car.

 

It's a HAAS part  - Equivalent to 1331294  shown my my local motorfactor to fit the felicia

 

I removed the original part..   and initial inspection it apeared to be broken ..

 

just a small blade that sat in the block, with an O ring and yellow lock ring on top

 

The replacement is a flat circular affair more akin to a rad sensor, but 4 pin

 

well no matter which sequence of  yellow ring, O ring, no  O ring  placement on the sensor, i cant get the snap clip over the yellow ring.

 

It will not sit low enough into the housing.

 

I could file the  housing slightly to allow the snap clup to sit higher, but i'm loath to do that due to potentially cocking up the oring seal.

 

Dont ask me about getting an oem part from the main stealer ...  see my other thread for that ...

 

any ideas?  

 

 

Mart

 

 

[RicardoM]

Since you bought a totally different sensor (from VW?) don't expect to have any success both dimensional and functional. CT sensors are color coded. If the two thermistors inside have not the right characteristic, the gauge will not show the correct temperature and the ECU will get erroneous temp. data with direct consequences on engine performance.

 

The vast majority of Felicia owners didn't bother to try buying it from Skoda or VW dealers. They bought the thermostat, its housing and the CT sensor as a whole from eBay. Job done.

[Santa2512]

2 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

Since you bought a totally different sensor (from VW?) don't expect to have any success both dimensional and functional. CT sensors are color coded. If the two thermistors inside have not the right characteristic, the gauge will not show the correct temperature and the ECU will get erroneous temp. data with direct consequences on engine performance.

 

The vast majority of Felicia owners didn't bother to try buying it from Skoda or VW dealers. They bought the thermostat, its housing and the CT sensor as a whole from eBay. Job done.

Ricardo, please think about what you type before you type!

 

I didnt buy the part from VW or Skoda.   It was bought from a motorfactors.  who supply pattern parts.   ie parts made by tier 2 or 3 suppliers to meet OEM specifications .

 

Looking at OEM PC, it lists the correct part for the Felicia as 6U0919501B.  

 

This part fits  - 34 other vehicles from the Seat,  Skoda, VW Group from 1994 to 2009  - conservativley thats over 36 million vehicles all using the same sensor! 

 

Black box changes to parts from tier 1 suppliers happen , but these are reflected in part number or AI number changes.  no other part number is given for this sensor.  

 

if you do a search for part number 6U0919501B you will find it returns a 4 pin flat bottomed sensor with a yellow id ring ...   Haas, Febi, etc.

 

The part i removed is a 4 pin sensor with a yellow id ring, the only difference is the sensor case is a smaller T shape.

 

In terms of diameter is the same,  its the same size O ring,   what is different is the height of the clip face to the yellow snap ring.

 

What would be helpfull is if you have encountered this, and what did you do,  as per my original request!

 

[Santa2512]

Right,

 

i had to swap the cars around, so decided to revisit this.  

 

Looking at a video on youtube, it was just in / out  and no leaks.. so i thought lets give it a go. 

 

so i unclipped the origianal sensor, and teased it out ..   no spurt of coolant this time,  ( i released the header tank cap last time )

 

I assembled the new sensor as per the pics online and popped it in ...  

 

Ok instant change.   instead of a quick burst of rpm (1100 or so), then dropping back,  the RPM stayed constant ...   and no leak from the sensor housing ...

 

The temp gauge.  then started to move  result  ... as soon as it hit 70,  the rpm dropped to tickover 900 or so .... 

 

No leaks ....  

 

I let the engine get up to temp and waited for the fan to kick in, watching for leaks ..

 

the fan kicked in just as it hit the lower red bar,   and cycled to drop the temp ... 

 

i turned it off then as no leaks were evident .. 

 

Now here is a simple question .....

 

What  is the  normal operating temperature  / where should the temperature gauge in normal  day to day driving .??

 

(Ricardo! if you come back with another sarcastic answer, you will be officially be on the naughty list for a very, very long time!) 

 

 

[RicardoM]

12 hours ago, Santa2512 said:

(Ricardo! if you come back with another sarcastic answer, you will be officially be on the naughty list for a very, very long time!) 

I think you need anger management classes because you have lots of frustrations. I tried to help and you continue to behave like a jerk. Many other members benefit almost daily from my free knowledge that comes on my valuable time. It is clear now that you don't deserve my help. I recommend you to change your attitude otherwise you will be silenced for a very long time and you will not be missed.

[Breezy_Pete]

90°C approx.

[Santa2512]

22 minutes ago, Wino said:

90°C approx.

 

Cheers, exactly what i was after ... 

 

does it fluctuate much from there? do you know ?

[Breezy_Pete]

Should be pretty solid there if the thermostat is in good condition.

[john999boy]

Briskoda prides itself that its members act with respect to fellow members and, if necessary, action will be taken to ensure that this is paramount. 

 

Hopefully self moderation will prevail over staff intervention........

[Santa2512]

4 hours ago, Wino said:

Should be pretty solid there if the thermostat is in good condition.

Just been and given it a bleed,

 

Seems ok,  lots of air comming out as it got near max heat, but got too clse to the top before the fan kicked in 

 

( i think its slightly overfilled) 

 

capped it and let it go on,   the temp and the expansion bottle level have both dropped dropped. 

 

Ill let him loose and see what happens

 

mart

[RainbowFire]

23 hours ago, RicardoM said:

I think you need anger management classes

 

That's the funniest thing I think I've ever seen you write: you, of all people, suggesting someone gets anger management classes.

[RainbowFire]

To be honest, when I needed a new sensor and thermostat, I got OE straight from the dealer, as they were only a couple of quid dearer than 3rd party. However, my dealer (why does it sound like we're doing drugs here) was very very good and exceptionally helpful, which appears to be the opposite of your experience.

[RainbowFire]

22 hours ago, john999boy said:

Briskoda prides itself that its members act with respect to fellow members and, if necessary, action will be taken to ensure that this is paramount. 

 

Hopefully self moderation will prevail over staff intervention........

 

I think we've been hopeing for that for so long, some of us have gone grey and given up. I would have thought you'd have got bored of writing this, about the same person after all this time. Or maybe it's just "cut and paste" and hope now?

Edited 19 July, 2017 by RainbowFire

[john999boy]

57 minutes ago, RainbowFire said:

 

I think we've been hopeing for that for so long, some of us have gone grey and given up. I would have thought you'd have got bored of writing this, about the same person after all this time. Or maybe it's just "cut and paste" and hope now?

I'm forever the 'glass half full' person as opposed to the glass half empty one. 

Maybe a prerequisite that comes with the 'badge'? 

[RainbowFire]

11 minutes ago, john999boy said:

I'm forever the 'glass half full' person as opposed to the glass half empty one. 

Maybe a prerequisite that comes with the 'badge'? 

 

Maybe it does. However, there's also a hope (glass half-full?) that at some point, all these "reminders" and "warnings" will eventually result in some sort of action, otherwise they're just words that get ignored (again,and again :( ) It's always the same individual who is at the centre of the "unpleasantness" in this section, and will spa will just about anyone else on here. This time round, the resident angry-man set upon someone within a couple of posts.....not exactly the best welcome that Briskoda would want to extend. Fortunately it would appear that the new member has pretty much sized up angry-man fairly quickly.

[KenONeill]

20 minutes ago, john999boy said:

I'm forever the 'glass half full' person as opposed to the glass half empty one. 

Maybe a prerequisite that comes with the 'badge'? 

That's usually fair enough, but if we're discussing the same Caribbean resident, he's been behaving like this is "his forum" for 3.5 years now.

[Santa2512]

I'm just waiting on an email re a new old stock thermostat housing etc.

 

If its as new condition, i'll take it and do a coolant flush and change next time the car is with me

 

Welding has now been done and the green bug has a 12 month ticket 

[RicardoM]

@RainbowFire

Here we go again. Speaking of old habits, you have never missed an opportunity to stir quarrel whenever you felt there's wind in your sails. Although you are not a regular contributor to this section, you keep a keen eye on it only because you are secretly hoping your time will come to get some revenge on me. Sadly for you, this will never happen. If you want "revenge" then show better knowledge than anyone in here. Take lots of time to guide people using descriptive photos, illustrations, videos, etc. At least share interesting findings about parts, accessories, tools, etc. All members would benefit from such competition. The more the merrier. You'll be a hero. But your cheap, old, sarcastic jokes and your constant bickering will not make you a model to anyone. On the contrary.

 

@KenONeill

This is not my forum. It is our forum. Anyone is free to post so long as he/she takes care to pass correct information and specific to the topic. I understood long ago that you are an avid reader of Wikipedia and Haynes manuals. Sadly, you can't repair specific cars with generic, theoretical or sometimes blatantly wrong guides. If that is your cup of tea, there is a special section for that. Therefore, my constant advice has always been to make an effort in understanding Felicia/Favorit cars and only then offer advice. You'll achieve two things: you'll not put people on wrong paths thus saving them time/money, and you'll not embarrass yourself by sharing technically wrong information.

Edited 19 July, 2017 by RicardoM

[RainbowFire]

18 hours ago, KenONeill said:

.........he's been behaving like this is "his forum" for 3.5 years now.

 

This kinda drives that point home really........

 

On 18/07/2017 at 12:09, RicardoM said:

I recommend you to change your attitude otherwise you will be silenced for a very long time and you will not be missed.

 

I wasn't aware that Angry-Man had such power over the forum. He's certainly failed to find the "ignore" button for the last few years, so he must be talking about this at an admin level. (And again, advice on attitude from one with such attitude issues.)

[john999boy]

I expect there to be NO further 'public' discussion on this matter as the glass is decidedly getting half empty now. 

 

The 'Report button' or PM route will always be available though. 

[Fio]

Hi,

On the original subject of aftermarket temp sensor:

I also replaced mine with an aftermarket sensor branded "topran" (my temp gauge wasn't working), I managed to buy it with a gsf discount coupon so it only cost me about 15 quid, so I thought id give that a try. Here are some pics of the original t shaped sensor, the aftermarket one and also one of the new sensor fitted to the car.

As you can see they look different, but the diameter of the new sensor is the same as original, so I had no issue with fitting. The rubber o ring slides onto the metal sensor, instead of the groove on the original (see pics) and it does clip in securely, allthough the yellow band sits about 2mm further out.

It did cure the problem of the temp gauge, which now works just fine.

There are some issues I had hoped the new sensor would solve, which is as follows: After a run of short trips and parking up for a few hours, when started again the idle is around 1100, and rich sounding (chug chug chug), for 20 seconds approx, then it settles to 900 and idles fine. This doesn't happen if I'm doing longer trips. Could this be related to the temp sensor? Or is it normal if I'm doing the short trips (I cant avoid it sometimes unfortunately).

Thanks and hopefully some find these pictures useful.

[RicardoM]

6 hours ago, Fio said:

I also replaced mine with an aftermarket sensor branded "topran"

The brand Topran is distributed in Europe by Hans Pries company from Germany. Of course, 'distributed' is not equal with 'manufactured'. They are in fact low cost parts made in China. In case you wonder what is their level of technology and quality, see the videos below. Note: for Felicia 1.6 the part number of the CTS is 6U0919501B.

 

 

6 hours ago, Fio said:

There are some issues I had hoped the new sensor would solve

In case you didn't know, one thermistor inside CTS serves for indicating the coolant temperature on the dashboard. The other thermistor feeds input data to ECU. If the temperature-resistance characteristic of that thermistor is not correct, the engine might behave like you have described. One other possible cause might be the oxygen sensor. But most often cleaning the throttle body and the IAT/MAP sensor solves the issues.

[Fio]

52 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

see the videos

Doesnt look like it will last long then... Might have to bite the bullet and try the main dealer..

I'll see if cleaning throttle body etc helps,

cheers!

[Santa2512]

Hi Fio,

 

Topran  / HP are a german pattern part supplier to most of the car market  EU & Aisa -

 

there parts will meet OEM requirements.  That said, you could have a defective part,  it happens.  

 

If the part has failed,  its either one or the other thermistor  or could be both

 

if its the thermistor that controls the temp gauge,  the temp gauge fails to read the correct temp  - stuck low, stuck high  or is errattic.

 

If its the thermistor  that controls fueling its fails in one  of two states  open or closed 

 

if its failed open,  the  thermistor keeps sending a low temp signal to the ECU which adds more fuel to make the car fueling rich which  increases the idle speed.

 

The downside is the car allways runs rich, and the emisions are high.  Hot restarts  can be a problem, as the car has too much fuel.

 

If the thermistor fails closed, the signal sent to the ECU is engine at temp, and the fuel ratio is leaner. the RPM will drop to tickover, virtually straight after starting . the car will run, hot resarts will be fine, and the

 

emmisions will be normal, as the system is closed loop 

 

Before we relpaced the one in my sons car, it woul start and idle immidiatly, however you had to give it a bit of throttle to get it moving. 

 

With the new sensor  it starts on fast idle ( approx 1100) and stays there until the coolant temp reaches 70c then  drops to 900 or so

 

if i recall from a hot start, it goes to 1100 but drops to 900 idle immidiatly.

 

I would  follow Ricardo's suggestion and clean the throttle body  and MAP sensor. 

 

When i did my MAP sensor on the SAAB, it was full of oily carbon gunk, and would give me a CEL (Check engine light) every couple of month's  

 

cleaning it with brake cleaner or similar  cleared out all the crap.   i never had a problem with it since ..  dont use a cotton bud or anything in the sensor opening , there fragile parts in there.

 

You could also try running some millers octane booster through the tank, it does a good job of cleaning the fuel system, or redex

 

 

 

 

[Fio]

Thanks Santa,

From what you describe I had similar, rarely had fast idle on start up untill I replaced the sensor, and no temp gauge reading.

 

With the new one I have 1100 after starting, which drops to 900 gradually. Hot starts its quickly. So maybe thats ok then, its more the chugging sound while its idling higher, almost like a small misfire which settles when at 900.

 

I'll give the map sensor a clean and try the fuel system cleaner (I tried some redex a few months ago) to see if it helps with the chugging start.

Cheers for the advice!