2 hours ago, Sad555 said:

Perhaps in the near future batt vehicles at realistic prices and distance coverage will be the norm but will all the present issues of cost and distance/charging etc it's not going to be a practical option for many for a while.

 

It only takes a few parameters to change and moving to EV becomes a lot more attractive.

 

There are several factors on the horizon that are making EVs more attractive than ICE cars.   OPEC is trying to get the balance of oil production at the right level to get crude back over $50, which they have just about done, electricity is increasingly produced from sources where once the capital expenditure is made for the wind turbine and solar farms then electricity can, and is, sold at a nominal price.  Hence at some times some electricity companies will let you use electricity for free ie 8 hours during the day at weekends when there is a surplus of base load.

 With car prices quite possibly going to soar after BREXIT, exchange rates might go more south again and the price of hyro-carbon fuel spike up again.  Fuel at £1.50 a litre would sharpen many people's focus on their expenditure in this area.   

21 minutes ago, mac11irl said:

Paris actually has a public transport system that works though... so most people day to day done need to own a vehicle, but may opt to have one for when they need or want it.

Where as certainly in Ireland public transport is generally carp. And i work for one of them... nothing is integrated properly with train/luas/bus services so most people here have no option but car ownership.

And if you think charge points are rare in the uk... its alot worse here so EV makes little sense for most of the people who have to drive cars.

 

Dublin's pollution, and even Cork can be quite bad at times and as with London in the UK these roll outs start in the big cities and then to medium cities and places like airports, railway stations and supermarkets are the places where the charge points make much more sense and logistically/practically with the more likely availability of high amperage electrical power.      

7 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

My point is that Parisians have opted to pay a few Euros when need a car rather than commit thousands of pounds to a car that sits for 95% on their drive.  This allows them to take control of their finances.

Some us have several vehicles (cars and motorcycles) as it is a tool for our jobs and hobby , plus we get thousands of pounds a year as a vehicles allowance, but I do question, as more people are doing, whether it makes sense to follow the normal of having a shiny Germanesque car on the drive.  Increasing young people are not even learning to drive.  The days of spending thousands a year on owning a car are numbered.

My company have a billion pound a year business in electric years, at the moment not core to our tens of billions transport business but it is good to be in at the ground floor at a society changing, for the better we think, consumers are and will make their choices directed by government taxation and access to cities policy.

 

 

A few Euros... Every. Single. Time.

OK, so what's 365 x A Few Euros, plus (I assume) the fuel and delivery costs?

Add to that the numerous taxes that WILL be invented to levy upon people and you're back to Square One.

 

And yes, consumers will decide based on taxation and access to cities... The government WILL tax the living **** out of EVs and cities are increasingly less worth going to anyway.

 

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

electricity is increasingly produced from sources where once the capital expenditure is made for the wind turbine and solar farms then electricity can, and is, sold at a nominal price. 

 

How do they make this capital expenditure when they're busy paying people either to NOT run the turbines, or to fix the ones that keep breaking down?

It only takes one parameter to switch to nigh-on free nuclear energy, yet it's been over 50 years and we still haven't done that...

And as for fuel at £1.50 - No. Wages will go up to cover the increased cost of living and people will keep on buying, just as they did when they swore blind they'd boycott fuel if it went over £1 per litre.... and promptly broke that oath the very day it did.

18 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

 

A few Euros... Every. Single. Time.  OK, so what's 365 x A Few Euros, plus (I assume) the fuel and delivery costs?    Add to that the numerous taxes that WILL be invented to levy upon people and you're back to Square One.

 

And yes, consumers will decide based on taxation and access to cities... The government WILL tax the living **** out of EVs and cities are increasingly less worth going to anyway. How do they make this capital expenditure when they're busy paying people either to NOT run the turbines, or to fix the ones that keep breaking down?  It only takes one parameter to switch to nigh-on free nuclear energy, yet it's been over 50 years and we still haven't done that...

And as for fuel at £1.50 - No. Wages will go up to cover the increased cost of living and people will keep on buying, just as they did when they swore blind they'd boycott fuel if it went over £1 per litre.... and promptly broke that oath the very day it did.

 

Hire of EVs in ciities are subsidized to get the NOX pollution down.  Infrastructure is quite expensive with the charge points being many thousands of Euros/Pounds each.   Flexibility of fuel type and where one has meetings/production leaves the consumer in the driving seat and not so much the government/city.

Renewable power continues to grow http://www.renewableuk.com/page/UKWEDhome and what is increasingly needed is to store more power and whilst the government has storage in places like Dinorwig it is increasingly possible for users to store their own electricity and therefore put then in the driving seat. If one has multiple sources of transport ie petrol and EV one can use the vehicle that uses the cheapest fuel. If the weather is nice I can use the bike that does 70 mpg and yest still does 0-60 in 5 seconds and is cheap to run in road tax etc !   

  

Dinorwig doesn't store electric power but the means to generate it for a short period. This only increases the capacity of the grid for a short period of time. The means of storing electric that has already been generated is very expensive,  no good for the environment and usually a lot of area to do so. 

Its already been estimated that to power 9 million cars we would need the capacity of Hinckley Point C and we've not even built that yet for our current requirements. To cover all the cars, trucks, buses and trains would be 10x that which is huge step up in demand in a very short time. 

EV powered by rechargeable batteries isn't the future and a lot of work needs to be done into self generated space such as hydrogen. 

 

39 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Hire of EVs in ciities are subsidized to get the NOX pollution down.  Infrastructure is quite expensive with the charge points being many thousands of Euros/Pounds each.   Flexibility of fuel type and where one has meetings/production leaves the consumer in the driving seat and not so much the government/city.

Renewable power continues to grow http://www.renewableuk.com/page/UKWEDhome and what is increasingly needed is to store more power and whilst the government has storage in places like Dinorwig it is increasingly possible for users to store their own electricity and therefore put then in the driving seat. If one has multiple sources of transport ie petrol and EV one can use the vehicle that uses the cheapest fuel. If the weather is nice I can use the bike that does 70 mpg and yest still does 0-60 in 5 seconds and is cheap to run in road tax etc !   

  

 

>Hire of EVs in ciities are subsidized to get the NOX pollution down.  

And once it's down, BOHICA, because someone will be making money from it...

 

>Infrastructure is quite expensive with the charge points being many thousands of Euros/Pounds each.  

Ex-ACK-erly.... and who pays for the infrastructure?

 

>Flexibility of fuel type and where one has meetings/production leaves the consumer in the driving seat and not so much the government/city.

I'm sure it sounds that way right now and looks great as a quote in your company's glossy marketing magazine... but the reality is the consumer is at the mercy of the business world and will be shafted by it any way it can.

Plus, you seem to be assuming that everyone can afford to live in "The Cities", some magical green and verdant land of no pollution... You say nothing of rural areas or anything in between, let alone commercial and military vehicles .

 

>it is increasingly possible for users to store their own electricity

And that brings an increasing number of tax opportunities and marketing in-roads, to make even more money off the consumer. How joyous..

 

>and therefore put then in the driving seat.

Oh, do stop saying that - We are about to get autonymous vehicles anyway, so there isn't going to BE a driving seat.

 

>If one has multiple sources of transport ie petrol and EV one can use the vehicle that uses the cheapest fuel.

And thanks to various schemes and subsidies and taxes... which one do you think you will be forced to choose?

 

>If the weather is nice I can use the bike that does 70 mpg and yest still does 0-60 in 5 seconds and is cheap to run in road tax etc !   

AH-hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

Yeah, kiss goodbye to motorcycles.

They'll be off the road first chance the government gets and these new technologies are only making it easier for them.

 

Available car have available at the moment (among'st other makes), 65....................yes, sixty five Vauxhall Insignia 2.0CDTi

(or Insignificants as someone else called it).

 

I know it is a car supermarket, but this possibly goes to show the way things are going re diesels.

The 90s German diesel cartel -

http://www.carshowroom.com.au/news/german-automakers-formed-secret-diesel-cartel-in-90s-report/?utm_source=CSR+Newsletter&utm_campaign=744929408a-CSR+Weekly+Wrap+-+July+28th+2017&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f85b6ed6b3-744929408a-57838697

2 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

>Hire of EVs in ciities are subsidized to get the NOX pollution down.  

And once it's down, BOHICA, because someone will be making money from it...

>Infrastructure is quite expensive with the charge points being many thousands of Euros/Pounds each.  

Ex-ACK-erly.... and who pays for the infrastructure?

>Flexibility of fuel type and where one has meetings/production leaves the consumer in the driving seat and not so much the government/city.

I'm sure it sounds that way right now and looks great as a quote in your company's glossy marketing magazine... but the reality is the consumer is at the mercy of the business world and will be shafted by it any way it can. Plus, you seem to be assuming that everyone can afford to live in "The Cities", some magical green and verdant land of no pollution... You say nothing of rural areas or anything in between, let alone commercial and military vehicles .

>it is increasingly possible for users to store their own electricity

And that brings an increasing number of tax opportunities and marketing in-roads, to make even more money off the consumer. How joyous..

>and therefore put then in the driving seat. 

Oh, do stop saying that - We are about to get autonymous vehicles anyway, so there isn't going to BE a driving seat.

>If one has multiple sources of transport ie petrol and EV one can use the vehicle that uses the cheapest fuel.

And thanks to various schemes and subsidies and taxes... which one do you think you will be forced to choose?

>If the weather is nice I can use the bike that does 70 mpg and yest still does 0-60 in 5 seconds and is cheap to run in road tax etc !   

AH-hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!   Yeah, kiss goodbye to motorcycles.    They'll be off the road first chance the government gets and these new technologies are only making it easier for them.

 

As the Duke of Westminster said “Every man is entitled if he can to arrange his affairs so that the tax attaching under the appropriate Acts is less than it otherwise would be. If he succeeds in ordering them so as to secure that result, then, however unappreciative the Commissioners of Inland Revenue or his fellow taxpayers may be of his ingenuity, he cannot be compelled to pay an increased tax” 

 

There are a world of choices, including where one lives for many, either cities or countryside, either the UK or another country and therefore what lifestyle and taxes one pays.  Personally would not live in a country which limited my choice of transport, as long as that choice does not harm others as diesels do to such an extent.  Some of the changes need partnerships between private industry and public support ie the rollout of EVs to cities. Volkswagen got caught out and highlighted the issue of NOX and many other diesel manufacturers are similarly bad hence the banding system to ban dirty cars from cities is taking off. 

 

So a future in the UK, or Ireland or Spain and/or bouncing between the three seems a go way to do what one wants and live the way one wants!     

 

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

As the Duke of Westminster said “Every man is entitled if he can to arrange his affairs so that the tax attaching under the appropriate Acts is less than it otherwise would be. If he succeeds in ordering them so as to secure that result, then, however unappreciative the Commissioners of Inland Revenue or his fellow taxpayers may be of his ingenuity, he cannot be compelled to pay an increased tax” 

 

There are a world of choices, including where one lives for many, either cities or countryside, either the UK or another country and therefore what lifestyle and taxes one pays.  Personally would not live in a country which limited my choice of transport, as long as that choice does not harm others as diesels do to such an extent.  Some of the changes need partnerships between private industry and public support ie the rollout of EVs to cities. Volkswagen got caught out and highlighted the issue of NOX and many other diesel manufacturers are similarly bad hence the banding system to ban dirty cars from cities is taking off. 

 

So a future in the UK, or Ireland or Spain and/or bouncing between the three seems a go way to do what one wants and live the way one wants!     

 

 

 

>As the Duke of Westminster said “Every man is entitled if he can

If he can... Much is being done to ensure than one cannot, however entitled the law may regard them... You are 'entitled' to do a great many things, if you can...

Moreover, a great many companies attract the hatred of the population for doing this exact thing, as per their entitlement - Your Duke of Westminster is basically endorsing Tax Avoidance.

 

>Personally would not live in a country which limited my choice of transport, as long as that choice does not harm others as diesels do to such an extent.

And how much harmful pollution is created by the industry that produces electric products, I wonder...

If it were all about not harming others, you'd be riding a bicycle or walking.

 

 

>" It only takes a few parameters to change and moving to EV becomes a lot more attractive. "

 

Like a weekly lottery win ?

Just now, punyXpress said:

>" It only takes a few parameters to change and moving to EV becomes a lot more attractive. "     Like a weekly lottery win ?

 

Is it not more likley to be struck by lightening than win a/the big lottery? 

3 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

>As the Duke of Westminster said “Every man is entitled if he can

If he can... Much is being done to ensure than one cannot, however entitled the law may regard them... You are 'entitled' to do a great many things, if you can...   Moreover, a great many companies attract the hatred of the population for doing this exact thing, as per their entitlement - Your Duke of Westminster is basically endorsing Tax Avoidance.

>Personally would not live in a country which limited my choice of transport, as long as that choice does not harm others as diesels do to such an extent.

And how much harmful pollution is created by the industry that produces electric products, I wonder...  If it were all about not harming others, you'd be riding a bicycle or walking.

 

We should be pleased that the all this focus on VW's diesels has highlighted the pollution issue and the lives it will hopefully save by providing impetus to move over to EVs.  VW is a massive business which is now rapidly restructuring to hopefully emerge a more eco-friendly company.  

 

Tax Avoidance, which nearly all companies and many people undertake, takes many forms. Buying an EV, rather than a diesel/petrol, gets you £4.5K subsidy from the Uk gov, £500 for a wall-box home charger and paying 5% on the energy you put in the car, rather than 20% there is on diesel and petrol the government introduced in 2011. Tax avoidance that is also eco-friendly.  We voted back in a government that is fully of millionaires, Cameron had offshore accounts with tens of thousands of pound in it, Theres May's husband is an investment manager, do you think he is not carrying out tax planning for him and his clients that minimizes his tax liability?  When one looks at moneys that change hand barely half if it is taxed, paying cash for items and we actually know the solutions yet governments refused to enact the solutions, why?

Tax policy can be used for good. IMO fuel duty should have at least kept up with inflation, VAT should not be so high and a new scrappage scheme should be in place to get the worst NOX polluters out of our cities.  

 

In Logistics and Transport we know which are the efficient modes of transport, and that includes electric trains, which the UK has lagged behind on and just can three projects of electrification.   Batteries, particularly the LMP ones we use, last many years and after their transport life are put in to battery banks for community use either here or in Africa where power is much more of an issue than here, but their lifetime can easily equal and ICE and is looking like exceeding that number of years.       

       

Edited 30 July, 20178 yr by lol-lol

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

We should be pleased that the all this focus on VW's diesels has highlighted the pollution issue and the lives it will hopefully save by providing impetus to move over to EVs.  VW is a massive business which is now rapidly restructuring to hopefully emerge a more eco-friendly company.  

 

Tax Avoidance, which nearly all companies and many people undertake, takes many forms. Buying an EV, rather than a diesel/petrol, gets you £4.5K subsidy from the Uk gov, £500 for a wall-box home charger and paying 5% on the energy you put in the car, rather than 20% there is on diesel and petrol the government introduced in 2011. Tax avoidance that is also eco-friendly.  We voted back in a government that is fully of millionaires, Cameron had offshore accounts with tens of thousands of pound in it, Theres May's husband is an investment manager, do you think he is not carrying out tax planning for him and his clients that minimizes his tax liability?  When one looks at moneys that change hand barely half if it is taxed, paying cash for items and we actually know the solutions yet governments refused to enact the solutions, why?

Tax policy can be used for good. IMO fuel duty should have at least kept up with inflation, VAT should not be so high and a new scrappage scheme should be in place to get the worst NOX polluters out of our cities.  

 

In Logistics and Transport we know which are the efficient modes of transport, and that includes electric trains, which the UK has lagged behind on and just can three projects of electrification.   Batteries, particularly the LMP ones we use, last many years and after their transport life are put in to battery banks for community use either here or in Africa where power is much more of an issue than here, but their lifetime can easily equal and ICE and is looking like exceeding that number of years.       

       

 

>We should be pleased that the all this focus on VW's diesels has highlighted the pollution issue and the lives it will hopefully save by providing impetus to move over to EVs.

Yes, and you shall be similarly pleased when you find out how bad for you all the other aspects of your life are, forcing you to spend lots more money replacing things, right?

 

>Tax Avoidance, which nearly all companies and many people undertake, takes many forms.

And your Duke of Westminster has asserted that they have every right to avoid them... so why are people so upset when companies do this, eh?

 

>Buying an EV, rather than a diesel/petrol, gets you £4.5K subsidy from the Uk gov, £500 for a wall-box home charger and paying 5% on the energy you put in the car

Oh, is that a 100% guaranteed permanent thing, then?

No?

Oh well. Scrub that idea, then.

 

>Tax avoidance that is also eco-friendly.

Paying a different level of tax is not avoidance.........

 

>In Logistics and Transport we know which are the efficient modes of transport

 

That's nice.

In the real world, we choose what we can afford, not the most wonderfully shiny statistically efficient solution. People currently cannot afford the green solution and having them pay "a few Euros every day" does not make it any more affordable.

Heck, storage heating is supposed to be one of the most energy efficient form of heating, depending on who's doing the analysis, but it's an absolute bitch to live with.

 

>Batteries, particularly the LMP ones we use, last many years

But they need charging far too often.

My co-worker with his Nissan Leaf cannot get over to our second office and back without having to put it on charge for over an hour, before the return journey... every single day. Even if I drive like a loon, I can still get an easy 5.7 round trips on a single tank.

Plus you need EV charging points EVERYWHERE, which will be insanely expensive in terraced housing, likely ignored in rural areas and a massive undertaking that no-one is interested in paying for.

Right now EVs are a city-slicker's tech demo dream. Nothing more.

 

There is more,illegal £400 mill Euro grant to develop fix-fail engines

Gove, Hammond, Grayling & May must really have thought stuff that for a game of soldiers as British Gas announced an increase in the cost of Electricity by 12.5% from September.

 BG gives as the reason, their owner Centrica 'needs to do it because of the result of transmission and distribution costs and the costs of government policy'.

 

Edited 1 August, 20178 yr by Awayoffski

Civil actions could go on for years unless VW settles all of them quickly.

VW, Daimler and BMW to Upgrade 5 Million Diesels in Rescue Pact

By 

Elisabeth Behrmann   and   Birgit Jennen    August 2, 2017, 2:15 PM GMT+1 August 2, 2017, 5:36 PM GMT+1

• Recalls include 2.5 million VW cars that are already fixed
• Automakers will contribute to fund for cleaner urban transport

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2017-08-02/german-automakers-summit-seeks-diesel-solution-video

 

Volkswagen AG, Daimler AG and BMW AG agreed to upgrade more than 5 million newer diesel cars in Germany and offer trade-in rebates on older models, avoiding more costly remedies in a bid to salvage diesel technology and avoid driving bans in cities.  The recalls, hashed out at an emergency summit in Berlin on Wednesday, will cost about 500 million euros ($593 million) and largely sticks to commitments that the automakers had already made. The deal allows them to dodge expensive hardwarerecalls, which would have ballooned costs. Meanwhile, about half the fixes have already been carried out as part of Volkswagen’s response to its cheating scandal.  “What the agreement doesn’t do is restore consumer confidence in diesel engines,” said Arndt Ellinghorst, a London-based analyst with Evercore ISI. “Two years into the VW diesel scandal, having learned about the shortcomings of bench emission testing and ways to trick the system, consumers rightly demand new technologies.”   Click here to read why it seems like open season on car companies    Top executives from the German auto industry were summoned to face off with ministers and state leaders amid a steady drumbeat of negative news about diesel pollution, dialing up concerns over the technology’s impact on urban air quality. The manufacturers agreed to absorb the costs of the upgrades, which they said wouldn’t diminish performance, fuel usage or durability.    Recall breakdown by automaker:

• Volkswagen - 3.8 million vehicles
• Daimler - 900,000
• BMW - 300,000

well as we all know the last FIX was a disaster for many owners,not that VAG are ready to admit it yet, even to our government lies,lies.lies. So a couple of years down the line a new UPGRADE promised somewhere in the future (didn't the last one work VAG ?)  but most owners just want to get rid or be compensated for this fiasco.the only real solution for the owners is for the EU lawmakers to do the same as the USA and make them offer owners a buyback,this is totally down to VAG, the owners and public are the victims in all this.

BMW Scrappage scheme for older diesels.

 

One way to shift high stocks of unsold new cars. While sales are down in UK ?

But is it enough?

 

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/100374/bmw-announces-scrappage-scheme-for-older-diesels

Edited 4 August, 20178 yr by vrskeith

On 04/08/2017 at 00:02, Sad555 said:

well as we all know the last FIX was a disaster for many owners,not that VAG are ready to admit it yet, even to our government lies,lies.lies. So a couple of years down the line a new UPGRADE promised somewhere in the future (didn't the last one work VAG ?)  but most owners just want to get rid or be compensated for this fiasco.the only real solution for the owners is for the EU lawmakers to do the same as the USA and make them offer owners a buyback,this is totally down to VAG, the owners and public are the victims in all this.

The trouble is the sheer numbers involved in the EU compared to the U.S.   That's why it won't happen......and the German government won't have a bar of it either, they are committed to diesel -

http://www.carshowroom.com.au/news/diesel-being-kept-alive-in-germany/?utm_source=CSR+Newsletter&utm_campaign=9173bff9e1-CSR+Weekly+Wrap+-+August+4th+2017&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f85b6ed6b3-9173bff9e1-57838697

 

Perhaps Britain could just fine VAG a nominal amount to scrap all diesel and compensate the owners......................................................let's say £36 BILLION

30 minutes ago, Sad555 said:

Perhaps Britain could just fine VAG a nominal amount to scrap all diesel and compensate the owners......................................................let's say £36 BILLION

I feel sure our Brexit leader David Davies can negotiate that, as all politician are so good and doing that, as well as getting the £350M a week for the NHS in return.

Edited 7 August, 20178 yr by vrskeith

David Davis MP.

 lets not mix him up with anyone who might be Welsh.

She chose the right Minister for BREXIT, one that really seems not to give a sh!te about what Continental European Politicians want.

On 30/07/2017 at 10:28, Tilt said:

Available car have available at the moment (among'st other makes), 65....................yes, sixty five Vauxhall Insignia 2.0CDTi

(or Insignificants as someone else called it).

 

I know it is a car supermarket, but this possibly goes to show the way things are going re diesels.

Ive just traded in my Volvo V60 diesel after i couldnt sell it,i had no interest in it at all,those that did enquire all asked if it was petrol(despite the advert saying diesel)i took a big hit on the price i paid for it 9 months ago,i offered it at a grand more than the trade in value & that was a bargain price but nobody wants diesels now,in hindsight i should have kept my Octavia for another year then traded that in for the Golf,i even went back to the Volvo dealer i bought it from to see if they wanted to buy it back for stock as it was a great car & wouldnt need anything doing to it to retail it but they said they didnt want it as they cant shift the V60 diesels they have in stock at the moment despite dropping the prices.