3 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

On 26/07/2017 at 08:39, CWARD said:

 

What, like they would never try and make up the loss on cigarette tax by charging a nicotine tax on things like electrical devices, batteries, neoprene mats and anything else that doesn't contain any nicotine, simply because you buy it from a vape shop?

 

They could ramp up the electric costs but that would increase the cost of many goods in the UK as well as inflation. Much easier and less likely to end in riots to charge for road usage. Whilst they bring it in no doubt they will still be an element of ICE vehicles in use so no doubt they'll get to charge them as the pump and on the road at the same time.

 

5 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Ja - Twenty-Four frikkin' GRAND!!!

It'll take me at least 16 years to pay that off...

 

£28k for a Nissan Leaf and £22k for a Renault Zoe and it starts to look a lot more attractive when it can compete with a family size car. 

The Nuclear Tariff for the Future electricity generated was going to allow the French plenty profit and the Chinese building and putting in the money, 

and even then they know that they can mess around, hold off and still get more kelly.

 

The building is one major expense and so is the running of the nuclear, but then cleaning up the mess from the last lot and the places that have just had the life extended and as it turns out might need closing down very soon is just something to pass on to future generations to pay for, or never pay for actually, not even clear the 'Minimum Monthly Payments' on.

 

The Carbon Capture Schemes need to go ahead, Tidal Barges, the Floating Turbines as are moving from Norway to Scotland today will need more of, 

and then the Millions being paid to have Diesel Farms on Standby and Coal Fired stations, and wind farms standing idle not generating while Land Owners rake it in needs sorting out.

Sam Cams Step Father & other relatives,

Baron Nicol Stephen (Liberal Democrat  Peer and snouter) & other peers need looking at for just how much the UK tax payers are filling their bank accounts by.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicol_Stephen 

http://telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10410291/Lord-Stephen-attacked-over-wind-farm-law-change.html 

Edited 27 July, 20178 yr by Awayoffski

35 minutes ago, CWARD said:

They could ramp up the electric costs but that would increase the cost of many goods in the UK as well as inflation. Much easier and less likely to end in riots to charge for road usage. Whilst they bring it in no doubt they will still be an element of ICE vehicles in use so no doubt they'll get to charge them as the pump and on the road at the same time.

Certainly 'vehicle-grade electricity' will be more expensive than 'domiciliary-grade electricity', at least until people figure out that they're the exact same thing... but they'll probably still pay it, like they do with that mineral water that "certainly isn't just tap water, gov..."

Plus there'll be loads of other taxes they can invent, needing only some random statistical report to fully justify it. Heck, if they can "prove" that 60% of bikers are untaxed, they can do anything they like!

 

35 minutes ago, CWARD said:

£28k for a Nissan Leaf and £22k for a Renault Zoe and it starts to look a lot more attractive when it can compete with a family size car. 

 

I'm told the Leaf is only £17k, brand new, by the EV-fanboy at work that just bought one. But it's still not attractive in any way that my wallet finds agreeable... There's a reason I drive a busted-up MkI Octavia...!!

That's it without separate metered electric supply they would need to find another method of taxation. They had tried the pay per mile before but it got shot down then immediately the work started in the smart motorways, call me a cynic but the huge amount of surveillance and gantries for more equipment I think they are still desperate to go down that road.

 

I just did a quick search on Google for the prices so could be wrong. CarWow suggests I wasn't far off  though. They is a government grant but I think that is only up to around £4-5000 so maybe the EV-Fanboy is stretching the truth and including saving in fuel costs too. Like yourself I prefer to buy second hand and get the maximum use out of a car, unfortunately my Octavia Mk2 was a bad buy and only had it for less than a year as that was supposed to follow on from the Mondeo I had for 10 years. 

2 hours ago, CWARD said:

I just did a quick search on Google for the prices so could be wrong. CarWow suggests I wasn't far off  though. They is a government grant but I think that is only up to around £4-5000 so maybe the EV-Fanboy is stretching the truth and including saving in fuel costs too.

Nissan's UK website says " £16,680" OTR, incl VAT 20% and £4500 incentive... but seems to be a RRP.

Nissan LEAF Tekna Flex is from £21,190, plus £745 if you want the Pearl White paint.

Nissan LEAF Acenta 24kWh is £24,190.

 

I buy second hand because £2,000 is quite a lot of money for me...

 

Truth of the matter is that Renault & Nissan dealers sitting with Used EV Cars & Vans have a 'Wish and a Dream Asking Price', and then will snap off your hand to get the 'stock' shifted.

The Nissan / Renault Light Goods EV's being a particularly slow seller as Used Vehicle and can be had for much cheapness.

10 hours ago, moley said:

If pollution from Petrol a diesel cars is such an issue running costs and fuel cards should not enter the discussion.

EV cars are still poor value and the range is still the major problem. If you buy the car in the spring so you get better range in the summer are you not going to use the car in the winter? What effect is there on the range of an EV when your running climate control in the summer? 

 

Renault's TCE engine is very good on pollution very low NOX and quite low CO2.  I get around 50 mpg.

 

I reckon I could run an EV for about 25 pence per mile, all in, which is effectively just about as low as any car is on the UK market, even rivaling my Dacia which is down in that area where most cars, even the city cars, as usually 30 ppm.  As I am reclaiming mileage allowance from HMRC, I do not get any mileage so claim,  45ppm tax relief on the first 10k miles and thereafter 25 ppm tax relief so I try to get as close to the 18ppm/10ppm as I can.

 

 The use of AC only affect by a few percent, unlike external ambient which can affect by some 40%.   

https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/zoe-250/driving range.html  

 

There are all sorts of tricks to get the Zoe to have more range.  If you can store it the garage then great but that is rare these days as we tend to keep over stuff in garages.   I think I will keep a Dacia or Clio (hopefully an RS) and a Zoe RS if they do launch one....    

https://electrek.co/2017/07/11/renault-hot-all-electric-zoe-rs/  

 

8 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

I'm told the Leaf is only £17k, brand new, by the EV-fanboy at work that just bought one. But it's still not attractive in any way that my wallet finds agreeable... There's a reason I drive a busted-up MkI Octavia...!!

If you get  leaf for £17k you will probably be renting the batteries for around £70 a month.

2 hours ago, moley said:

If you get  leaf for £17k you will probably be renting the batteries for around £70 a month.

But if I stay with my Škoda, I will save myself £17k and I still spend only £64 a month on diesel, while still getting more mileage and don't have to find suitable charging points...!

5 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

But if I stay with my Škoda, I will save myself £17k and I still spend only £64 a month on diesel, while still getting more mileage and don't have to find suitable charging points...!

Exactly.

When I bought the Wife her 1.2 TSI  Fabia earlier this year I considered an EV. The EV is much more expensive and the range is poor, so it is still not a viable option.

On the "Acceptable range from a Lezoe" argument, when one of those can do better than 400 miles without "range anxiety" and without requiring a mid-trip recharge then it might start to make sense!

3 hours ago, KenONeill said:

On the "Acceptable range from a Lezoe" argument, when one of those can do better than 400 miles without "range anxiety" and without requiring a mid-trip recharge then it might start to make sense!

I tend to drive 125 to 175 miles to an airport or port, work there for 4 to 8 hours and then drive home. Most workers do the same but only travel 50 miles or so a day.  On the weekend do something similar. Only when driving to NE England or Scotland do I drive more than 200 miles and then I would probably have a 20 minute break.

 

Charge points are being added every week, fuel stations are closing, movement of internal combustion machines are being limited. It is just a choice of when driver will move over and not if.  Energy costs of 2ppm against 10ppm will help users change over and the differential rising will spur the change.

4 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 It is just a choice of when driver will move over and not if.  Energy costs of 2ppm against 10ppm will help users change over and the differential rising will spur the change.

But once more people drive EV than ICE, there will be mechanisms by which someone else makes a frak-ton of money off them... and only when someone has such mechanisms in place will the average driver be 'allowed' to move over to EV. Pretty much nothing gets released to market until someone can get rich off it.

4 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

But once more people drive EV than ICE, there will be mechanisms by which someone else makes a frak-ton of money off them... and only when someone has such mechanisms in place will the average driver be 'allowed' to move over to EV. Pretty much nothing gets released to market until someone can get rich off it.

 

The UK has not run a budget surplus since the 1999 to 2002 years and hence especially since the Financial Crisis nearly a decade ago the outgoings have exceeded incomes.  It is as if the UK industry and populous have been in intensive care, but in a private health care system rather than a free national health care sort of way.   Fuel duty on hydro-carbons has nowhere near kept up with the inflation of other items although VAT has been raised from 15 to 20% of course which added about 6p a litre for many consumers.  VAT on electricity is on 5% and reclaimable for businesses.

 

Many items, including cars, are likely to increase considerably in price post the UK leaving the EU and the UK government will have the opportunity to collect many billions of pounds in import duties, as much to respond to other countries which are charging import duties on any UK cars sent to those countries.  The UK gov can try and collect more money from various sources, it will always try and appear the electorates friend and perhaps blame others for the lack of trade deals, the weakness in the UK pound and maybe do a little something to aid consumers, scrappage, reduce VAT etc.  Ultimately it has to balance the books and with a national debt approaching 90% of GDP and the re-emergence of inflation which further increased the UK debt interest payments the piper has to be paid eventually.   In a nutshell the UK consumer will pay in all manner of ways, not just most cars but on just about everything else too.

 

Edited 28 July, 20178 yr by lol-lol

I had no idea that the VW Group were not the largest car manufacturers in the world & it is Nissan - Renault.

 

As for the VW Group 'small problem' in Germany, that seems to be growing as they do more offers of voluntary sorting out of Porsche & VW's/ Audi's  and in no way is it a Recall etc etc.

Just 'voluntary' remember, no Porsche SUV's were cheating anything anytime anywhere in Europe

. No nae never, no nae never no more.

Edited 28 July, 20178 yr by Awayoffski

12 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

The UK gov can try and collect more money from various sources, it will always try and appear the electorates friend and perhaps blame others for the lack of trade deals, the weakness in the UK pound and maybe do a little something to aid consumers, scrappage, reduce VAT etc. 

I wasn't just talking about government.

We could have amazing technology by now, but companies make more money selling incremental improvements to us over the years than if they just release the amazing stuff straight away. We generally only progress when a rival company finds a way to release something two or three increments better for a relatively agreeable price.

Graphics cards and mobile phones are good examples.

3 minutes ago, Awayoffski said:

I had no idea that the VW Group were not the largest car manufacturers in the world & it is Nissan - Renault.

 

As for the VW Group 'small problem' in Germany, that seems to be growing as they do more offers of voluntary sorting out of Porsche & VW's/ Audi's  and in no way is it a Recall etc etc.

Just 'voluntary' remember, no Porsche SUV's were cheating anything anytime anywhere in Europe

. No nae never, no nae never no more.

 

Quite right too.     Family members buying the excellent Qashqai, 1.2 DIG petrol engine plus so many other good cars in the range and Dacia have got a waiting list whilst many other car companies have tens of thousands of unsold cars at several dock areas round the UK.   

 

Absolutely  delighted in my switch, after 20 years of Audis, SEATs and Skoda to move to the Dacia-Nissan-Renault camp, just one family member holding out with their Fabia, get them in the new Clio and they will change their mind I expect.  

 

Yesterday spotted a Dealer Demonstrator 'Mackie Motors' and thought that is nice Renault & wondered what it was and was surprised to see it was the New Micra.

4 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

I wasn't just talking about government.  We could have amazing technology by now, but companies make more money selling incremental improvements to us over the years than if they just release the amazing stuff straight away. We generally only progress when a rival company finds a way to release something two or three increments better for a relatively agreeable price.  Graphics cards and mobile phones are good examples.

 

My company is trying to change the model completely with cars ie do not own them just short hire them when you want one.  Our Paris scheme, Autolib, presents the model that travellers just hire, in 6 minute slots, cars to get to where they want to go.  We have almost 5,000 in Paris and similar scheme rolling out in other cities.  Lots of reasons, capital cost for users being one, that it is a game changer, works for many of the young generation who think differently.  BBC did a bit of radio program on this and other schemes..     http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07v0fty  

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

My company is trying to change the model completely with cars ie do not own them just short hire them when you want one.  Our Paris scheme, Autolib, presents the model that travellers just hire, in 6 minute slots, cars to get to where they want to go.  We have almost 5,000 in Paris and similar scheme rolling out in other cities.  Lots of reasons, capital cost for users being one, that it is a game changer, works for many of the young generation who think differently.  BBC did a bit of radio program on this and other schemes..     http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07v0fty  

Doesn't change my point - Hire them, rent them, borrow then, group buy, whatever... they will not become mainstream for the majority of the population until some big company can make enough money from them. If you're renting them, you are renting them from someone, and that someone is the money maker. Whoever buys in and then rents out the next increment is then the newer moneymaker, unless the current ones upgrade.

 

Plus, you will never lose those who want to outright own something, so long as it's possible to get/modify them in different designs, models or colours and thereby express oneself, or it demonstrates wealth. People have been doing that with their stuff for millennia. Young folks' way of thinking won't ever change that.

 

Being realistic ,a quote from an owner (not me)

6 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Doesn't change my point - Hire them, rent them, borrow then, group buy, whatever... they will not become mainstream for the majority of the population until some big company can make enough money from them. If you're renting them, you are renting them from someone, and that someone is the money maker. Whoever buys in and then rents out the next increment is then the newer moneymaker, unless the current ones upgrade.  Plus, you will never lose those who want to outright own something, so long as it's possible to get/modify them in different designs, models or colours and thereby express oneself, or it demonstrates wealth. People have been doing that with their stuff for millennia. Young folks' way of thinking won't ever change that.

 

 

My point is that Parisians have opted to pay a few Euros when need a car rather than commit thousands of pounds to a car that sits for 95% on their drive.  This allows them to take control of their finances.

Some us have several vehicles (cars and motorcycles) as it is a tool for our jobs and hobby , plus we get thousands of pounds a year as a vehicles allowance, but I do question, as more people are doing, whether it makes sense to follow the normal of having a shiny Germanesque car on the drive.  Increasing young people are not even learning to drive.  The days of spending thousands a year on owning a car are numbered.

My company have a billion pound a year business in electric years, at the moment not core to our tens of billions transport business but it is good to be in at the ground floor at a society changing, for the better we think, consumers are and will make their choices directed by government taxation and access to cities policy.

 

Edited 29 July, 20178 yr by lol-lol

6 hours ago, Sad555 said:

Being realistic ,a quote from an owner (not me)

 

Should have bought a Renault Zoe ZE40.    A303 is a bit bad for charge points compared to M5 and south coast road better are for charge points, it will get fixed as more consumer need them or just buy a Zoe that can reach Exeter in one go, lots of charge points in Exeter and Exmouth area I have seen when down there.  

 

Owners and Jornos experiences.............................................

 

  .......  https://speakev.com/threads/real-world-range-of-ze40.51489/

&

http://www.greenmotor.co.uk/2017/03/renault-zoe-40-review.html     - The long ranger: Renault Zoe 40 review

 

From speakev......

Agree 120 miles is a realistic minimum with high speed driving or extreme cold. However, I find the Zoe more responsive to eco driving than a Leaf. Also it's less effected by cold weather. Should mention that I have a battery heater, which I understand is not standard in all markets.When I use some mild eco tricks on my daily commute here in Norway in summer, I get close to the NEDC range of 400 km/250 miles without being an anoyance on the motorway. I start out doing 90km/h and gradually slow down with the rest of traffic as I approach the city center.

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Best I've gotten so far is 328km per charge, in +18 weather, wasn't hypermiling.

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I have done 166 miles out and back in one day on a single charge, and returned home with 20 miles left. This was in ECO mode, taking it steady. We've had the car (a Q90) for 3 months and done about 3500 miles. A better measure in my view is the miles per kWh, which I think is easily 4.3 without having to drive slowly. This means the range is about 175 miles, but of course if your destination doesn't have a charging point, you can't actually achieve this without a lot of worry. If you are going somewhere where you are certain you can recharge (e.g. from a 13A socket using a slow charging cable overnight), then I'd be happy to drive 175 miles.On your final question, 70 mph does use a bit more energy, but speed isn't what seems to eat it up. Acceleration is what wastes energy. You can use the dash display to show you when you are using a lot (I like the graphical blue/green/yellow segments for this). Also the speed limiter is invaluable for saving energy, as it damps the acceleration near to the set speed. So setting this as you enter 30/40/50 limits, and even using it at 70 on the motorway can extend your range.

Edited 29 July, 20178 yr by lol-lol

Perhaps in the near future batt vehicles at realistic prices and distance coverage will be the norm but will all the present issues of cost and distance/charging etc it's not going to be a practical option for many for a while.

Paris actually has a public transport system that works though... so most people day to day done need to own a vehicle, but may opt to have one for when they need or want it.

Where as certainly in Ireland public transport is generally carp. And i work for one of them... nothing is integrated properly with train/luas/bus services so most people here have no option but car ownership.

And if you think charge points are rare in the uk... its alot worse here so EV makes little sense for most of the people who have to drive cars.