21 months and 27,000 miles in and it looks as if the vehicle battery has failed.  The car was completely dead yesterday morning - and I mean completely dead as nothing at all worked - no idea why as it was fine the evening before.

 

I have run a CTEK 10A conditioner/charger overnight last night on its AGM charge cycle and this morning just 3 of the 8 LEDs were lit.  That immediately rang a warning bell as a flat battery will recover in about 8 hours.  Not this one.

 

Just got in from work and the battery terminal voltage is 10.94 which to my electrical engineer's brain says a cell has gone short.  I've now got it on a recon cycle to see if that does anything however my suspicion is that the vehicle battery has just packed up.  It happens I know - and has happened to me about 20 years ago which in that occasion took the alternator regular pack out too!  I also know that these AGM cells are far less reliable than the wet batteries of old, as well as needing a special charging cycle/voltage too.

 

The question for the learned assembly (before I ring a Dealer) is whether this is a warranty issue or a 'fair wear and tear guv, sorry' issue?

4 minutes ago, FelisBengalensis said:

21 months and 27,000 miles in and it looks as if the vehicle battery has failed.  The car was completely dead yesterday morning - and I mean completely dead as nothing at all worked - no idea why as it was fine the evening before.

 

I have run a CTEK 10A conditioner/charger overnight last night on its AGM charge cycle and this morning just 3 of the 8 LEDs were lit.  That immediately rang a warning bell as a flat battery will recover in about 8 hours.  Not this one.

 

Just got in from work and the battery terminal voltage is 10.94 which to my electrical engineer's brain says a cell has gone short.  I've now got it on a recon cycle to see if that does anything however my suspicion is that the vehicle battery has just packed up.  It happens I know - and has happened to me about 20 years ago which in that occasion took the alternator regular pack out too!  I also know that these AGM cells are far less reliable than the wet batteries of old, as well as needing a special charging cycle/voltage too.

 

The question for the learned assembly (before I ring a Dealer) is whether this is a warranty issue or a 'fair wear and tear guv, sorry' issue?

 

The battery should be covered under Skoda warranty, or at least have its own warranty from Varta which i think from memory is 5 years

I had a similar failure on a honda with a varta battery, died completely at one year old, car was left for 2 days and then wouldn't even power the clock.

The warranty booklet does NOT mention the car battery in the list of exclusions; it mentions key fob batteries but not the car battery. So, I would say go for a warranty claim. I am not sure about the length of any battery supply warranty as some have been reducing warranty periods (ha, wonder why!). However, if Skoda won't play then there should be at least 2 years warranty from Varta or whoever.

 

Good luck.

try calling Skoda Assist - they will come out and do a thorough check on the battery and give you a report. This happened on my Mk2 Superb and it was replaced as the car was less than 3 yrs old.

Just trying a recon cycle again and if that still goes nowhere then Assist can come out.  They'll have to bring a battery with them as I suspect it won't get to a Dealer without stopping and then failing to start again....

I had a battery fail on a 2 year old Avensis about 15 years ago. It was replaced under warranty. 

Well that was fun.......not!

 

04:28 and the car alarm goes off!  The battery volts had fallen to a point where the car thought the battery had been nicked and because the car was locked it was therefore being stolen!  It's still dark and absolutely weeing down....

 

Of course with the voltage being so low the locks don't work!  It's got KESSY so no key holes!!  Aaargggh!!

 

If (like me) you keep the handbooks in the car then now would be a really good time to either read page 231, or (like me) make sure you have the ebook version, so you know how to get into the car in an emergency when the locks don't work.

 

Having finally got in, I disconnected the battery......silence .  Well actually no ........  it continued to be very noisy .  Turns out the alarm system has its own power.  Once triggered it will not shut off until the siren battery goes flat!  No 30 sec shut off!!

 

The only way to shut the alarm system down is to leave the vehicle battery connected, and get power on the car from a spare battery, booster pack or in my case a CTEK 10A charger with a constant supply mode.  My 4A charger is not powerful enough to do this as various electrical systems try to wake up and draw the charger capacity.  

 

Once the 10A supply was connected then it was as simple as unlocking the car on the KESSY.  Silence.....

 

Now disconnect the battery and go back to bed praying that the time taken to sort everything on a dark (light by the time I had it sorted) morning whilst it is weeing  down has not alienated all of the neighbours and made you enemy No1 with the family too.

 

This morning shows the battery volts down to 5.6V, so the AA (Škoda Assist) will be here in the next couple of hours.

Edited 5 August, 20178 yr by FelisBengalensis

Hello FB - I'm just guessing here, you are owned by at least one Bengall cat?

Your battery should be covered by the warranty by at least a proportion. The AGM on my Octavia failed in it's first year - this was after the dealer had already replaced the alternator (I was having issues with stop-start being unavailable due to low battery voltage) Interestingly, I noticed only recently that the replacement is now an EFB type. I have done a little research on the AGMs and I have a bit of a theory that this type of battery chemistry may not be particularly well suited to these micro-hybrids when they only allow the battery to charge to a maximum of 80% - to allow capacity, I believe, for re-generative charging when coasting.  Part of my reasoning for this theory, is my suspicion that this was the reason Skoda disabled the battery condition meter some time around MY15.

Good luck with the warranty claim, if the dealer will not play fair, get SUK involved.   

Edited 5 August, 20178 yr by Warrior193
Clarification

Good guess about the cat.....and yes I provide full 24/7 support to 4 of them.  Two Darks and 2 Snows....bless.  Those puzzled will need to understand that whilst dogs have Owners, Cats however have Staff  

 

The AA duly turned out, no they don't carry any AGM batteries (despite being told by a Dealer and Škoda Assistance they did) and they are seeing more and more failures, particularly on Start/Stop equipped cars.

 

Huge thanks to Progress Škoda in Letchworth where two Technicians stayed behind to keep the workshop open past noon and fitted a new battery.  Even after a 20- mile run the car would not switch on again.  One advantage of a diesel.  Once started they keep going.

Hi FB, was the battery changed under warranty without too much hassle?

Are your mogs the typical "hooligan" type of the breed? We have been blessed with Burmese, Asian and Maine Coons.

Quote

 

 

No hassle at all.  It was go and gave a seat, have a coffee, sign here for the warranty claim, we'll be back when the car is ready - 25 minutes. 

 

And yes they are intelligent, devious, funny and interactive.  Typical of the breed.  Here are two with one of our house rabbits...

 

I'm so glad I disabled stop/start. 

11 hours ago, daveo138 said:

I'm so glad I disabled stop/start. 

Hi Daveo, I don't think it's actually the stop-start technology that's killing the AGMs prematurely, but rather not allowing the battery ever to fully charge. In my experience, lead-acid batteries like being exercised - but really hate being left discharged.   I believe that VW need to take another look at the on-board battery charging strategy on their micro-hybrids. The EFB that was fitted my car as a warranty replacement appears to be a little better suited to this type of vehicle - but I still bought myself a smart charger. Perhaps Skoda could start providing one with every car sold?

Without the stop-start fitted, the 1.4 TSI, at least, would almost certainly fall into a higher VED bracket.

Having also now read up a bit I think you are right.  EFB are better for this type of use.  Perhaps a Gen 3 AGM design is on the way from the industry.  Gen 1 types were failing within a few weeks and Gen 2 came out in 2013 to reduce this issue.   The BMW Forum I also frequent reports similar premature failures with AGM cells, particularly on cars that don't see a lot of use where the battery discharges regularly even if not actually flat.  That definitely points at this technology being intolerant if either deep discharge or inadequate charging.

 

A conditioner/charger designed for AGM batteries (because of the special cycle they need) seems to be a wise precaution so I am glad I now have a couple.

 

An identical AGM was fitted by Škoda so we'll see how long that lasts - 27,000 miles/21 months for the 1st one.

I've just been searching for what an EFB battery is and found these two opinions that muddy the water:

From http://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/agm-efb-explained/#efb

Q. What are the differences between EFB and AGM batteries?
A. EFB batteries have been introduced as a lower tier option to AGM batteries in terms of performance and durability. EFB technology relies on improvements to existing flooded technology through the addition of Carbon additives in the plate manufacturing process. AGM batteries benefit from the inclusion of unique design features not found in wet-flooded batteries. These include glass mat separators, recombinant lid technology and higher pack pressures to facilitate improved cyclic lifespan. AGM batteries are better suited to meeting the demands of higher specification vehicles that include one or more of the following technologies: Start Stop, Regenerative Braking and Passive Boost.

 

And from the Battery University at http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/new_lead_acid_systems

Enhanced Flooded Battery (EFB)

Car manufacturers are aware of the added stress when a regular starter battery is in start-stop mode. AGM (absorbent glass mat) batteries can withstand the repeat start function, but car manufacturers looking for a lower cost solution came up with the enhanced flooded battery (EFB). Tests reveal that the EFB performs better than the regular flooded version, but it is not as good as AGM. Performance appears to be directly related with battery cost.

 

Quote

Of course with the voltage being so low the locks don't work!  It's got KESSY so no key holes!!  Aaargggh!!

 

On my previous Passat CC, you could pop off the caps over the door locks to use a hidden plastic key in the key fob. Except you couldn't if the car had been deadlocked... and it deadlocked by default. You used the plastic key to easily get the cover/cap off the keyhole.

 

I have the Audi A3 1.4 TFSI ACT at the moment and that has been fine with stop-start. After over 22,000 miles it's still got a way to go before it needs new front tyres. It might not get those changed before I send it back.

On 8/6/2017 at 21:39, peter_k said:

I've just been searching for what an EFB battery is and found these two opinions that muddy the water:

From http://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/agm-efb-explained/#efb

Q. What are the differences between EFB and AGM batteries?
A. EFB batteries have been introduced as a lower tier option to AGM batteries in terms of performance and durability. EFB technology relies on improvements to existing flooded technology through the addition of Carbon additives in the plate manufacturing process. AGM batteries benefit from the inclusion of unique design features not found in wet-flooded batteries. These include glass mat separators, recombinant lid technology and higher pack pressures to facilitate improved cyclic lifespan. AGM batteries are better suited to meeting the demands of higher specification vehicles that include one or more of the following technologies: Start Stop, Regenerative Braking and Passive Boost.

 

And from the Battery University at http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/new_lead_acid_systems

Enhanced Flooded Battery (EFB)

Car manufacturers are aware of the added stress when a regular starter battery is in start-stop mode. AGM (absorbent glass mat) batteries can withstand the repeat start function, but car manufacturers looking for a lower cost solution came up with the enhanced flooded battery (EFB). Tests reveal that the EFB performs better than the regular flooded version, but it is not as good as AGM. Performance appears to be directly related with battery cost.

 

Hi Peter, while I agree with what you are saying about AGMs (and their claimed superiority over LA & EF batteries) possibly not enough attention has been  given to how Skoda, at least, appear to have set up the Mk3 to only allow the battery ever to charge to around 80% - my theory is that they did this to allow battery capacity for regenerative charging.

The charging voltage for AGMs is a bit higher than LA or EF batteries, so possibly my (now fitted) EFB is getting a bit more of a charge over a shorter period. Only time will tell if the higher charging voltage is going to harm the new battery. The EFB presently in the car was fitted by the supplying dealer under warranty. I rather suspect VAG, or at least Skoda, need to take another look at the charging strategy of these micro hybrids.  

Interesting wrinkle from a phone call this morning with the Dealer.  The car needs to go back in because they did not have time to tell the charging system that the battery has been replaced.  It seems (allegedly) that the S3 at least has IBS - Intelligent Battery System - fitted which monitors the battery condition and alters the charging regime over time.  You can't simply change the battery when you want.

 

I have seen this on BMWs for about 7 years.  Changing the battery on my X6 requires the on board system to be told the type and Ah rating in order to avoid either over or undercharging.  The charging system then uses some algorithm to determine the alternator charge rate to the battery and alters it as the battery ages.  Going from a 6-yr old battery to a new one and not coding it results in battery damage.

 

Is IBS common on Škoda, or is this something relatively new?

3 hours ago, Warrior193 said:

The charging voltage for AGMs is a bit higher than LA or EF batteries, so possibly my (now fitted) EFB is getting a bit more of a charge over a shorter period.

There's a thread on the VCDS forum about the ECU monitoring the battery at http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthread.php?7339-Battery-VCDS-data-block-detailed-explanation-request&highlight=battery+coding (later posts more informative).   I was hoping to find out the difference in charging between the battery types having seen that "battery technology" is referenced in this thread at https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/353688-replacing-main-car-battery-might-require-can-gateway-coding/ :

Just a heads up as I found the following four channels under the [CAN Gateway 19], [Adaptions-10] using VCDS. 

(1)-Battery adaptation-Rated battery capacity,59 Ah

(2)-Battery adaptation-Battery technology,EFB
(3)-Battery adaptation-Battery manufacturer,JCB
(4)-Battery adaptation-Battery Serial Number,1111111111