Timing Belt –yet again! (1.4tsi petrol)

[retiredbri]

I have been trying to make sense of the inspection, maintenance and replacement intervals for the Timing Belt/Cam Belt used in the EA211 engine that I have in my Petrol, 1.4TSi, 140PS with DSG Skoda Octavia Mk3. At 30,00 miles, I changed from Fixed to Variable Servicing.

I wanted to get the data from the “horses-mouth” so got onto the Skoda Live Chat Line. Because my wife Barbara owns the car she started the chat with agent Mathew. She gave details of the car, and then let me “assist” her.

I have to say, this guy had the patience of a saint and was always polite – Thank you Skoda UK.

 

This is an edited transcript of the chat that followed Get yourselves a cup of tea, relax and be prepared to be “enlightened”.

 

ME:  My name is Barbara. My husband Brian is here to help me. My query relates to the "Check/adjust tension of all drive belts". Are you able to help me please?

 

SKODA CHAT: Hi Barbara, you're through to Matthew at ŠKODA UK. How can I help you today regarding your query?

 

ME:  My car is a Petrol, 1.4 TSI (103 kW, 140 PS, 138 hp ) Code CHPA, Engine Code EA211, 7-speed DSG Octavia registration xxxxxx.  It was purchased new 19 Sep 2014 (slightly less than 3 years old). It has done 44,000 miles.

It has just had a 20000 mile service under the fixed price "Skoda Service" using an accredited Skoda dealer priced at £269. The Skoda fixed price service says "A major service is carried out every 24 months or 20,000 miles, whichever comes sooner." Part of this service says "Check/adjust tension of all drive belts" I authorise you to look at the Skoda data for this car.

 

SKODA CHAT: Just to clarify, are you wanting to know what is involved in the Check/adjust tension of all drive belts process?

 

ME:  In the service for £269 that has just been done, there is no mention on the any checks of the toothed belt. Should there have been?

 

SKODA CHAT: Thanks for the clarification Barbara. I'll just check with my Technical Team now. 

 

ME:  I have a further question. I also need clarification about the engine Timing Belt. My understanding is " ....... that this toothed belt’s service life reliably spans the life of the entire vehicle". Is this correct FOR MY ENGINE?

 

SKODA CHAT:  Thanks for waiting Barbara. I've spoken with my Technical Team and they have confirmed that the toothed belt/timing belt is not checked at a major service. It is generally replaced every 5 years or 140,000 miles, whichever arrives first. Regarding the timing belt lasting the life span of your vehicle, it is not possible to give a life expectancy on any component. There is always a possibility that a component may fail during its lifetime. It is for this reason that all new UK ŠKODA vehicles are supplied with a comprehensive 3 years or 60,000 miles warranty, whichever arrives first.

 

SKODA CHAT:  Is there anything else that I can look into for you today?

 

ME:  So there is a discrepancy here. Your UK web site says it is part of the fixed price service. It makes sense therefor that the Inspection of the toothed belt is essential.. If it breaks before 5 years, who will pay for the damage?

 

SKODA CHAT:  I apologise for the confusion Barbara. In the event that your timing belt fails before the 5 year mark, you would need to visit your nearest ŠKODA Retailer and have one of our Approved Technicians diagnose the fault. In the event that it is deemed to be a manufacturing fault, the cost will be covered by ŠKODA UK.

 

ME: Thank you. I need more information please. Warranty normally excludes timing belts. Are you saying that this belt in this engine is covered up to 140000 mile/5 years

 

SKODA CHAT: Unfortunately it is not. Manufacturers warranty covers up to 3 years or 60,000 miles whichever arrives first. The 5 years/140,000 miles parameter is the recommendation for the replacing of the timing belt.

 

ME: Can I insist on an inspection? After all, it is part of the £269 service on your website?

 

SKODA CHAT: I'll just check that for you now Barbara.

 

SKODA CHAT:  Thanks for waiting again. I have looked into this for you and have been advised that you can enquire about this with your local Retailer, however as the timing belt is not included in the major service, it may incur an extra cost.

 

ME:  BUT your Skoda web site says IT IS INCLUDED in the £269. Please check your own website!

 

SKODA CHAT: Again, I apologise for the confusion. However, as you may know, there are many belts used in the operation of a vehicle, and while it does state that the drive belts are inspected this unfortunately does not include the timing belt as that has its own separate interval which we have already discussed.

 

ME:  The car is almost 3 year old. By July 2018, the car will have done 60,000 miles. I have just paid for an extended 1 years warranty (up to 100,000 mile) with Skoda. Will the belt be covered?

 

SKODA CHAT: I'll check that for you now. I'll be just a few moments.

SKODA CHAT:Thanks again for waiting. In order for me to confirm whether or not the timing belt would be covered by warranty in the event of a fault, I would need a diagnosis from an Approved ŠKODA Technician.

 

ME: Thank you for your time today. I have all the information I need for now.

 

SKODA CHAT:  It was my pleasure Barbara; enjoy the rest of your day!

 

+++++++++++++++++++++

After the chat, I contacted a Skoda Service garage and asked then for the price of “just an inspection of the timing belt”?

They said they don’t do it because the cost of the labour is so much that when all the covers are off, they would change the belts (and water pump as well if required) at the same time, Fixed price £385/£485

 

They said the recommended replacement was at 87,500miles or 5 years.

 

I explained that the car was less than 3 years old, 45000 miles (did 800 more miles in 3 days since chatting to Matthew) and that I make long motorway journeys and was worried about the belt failing.

 

The interesting reply was since it had only done half of the 87,500 miles and was well under 5 years old, there “wouldn’t be a problem”

 

 

I called a second Skoda Service garage and they said 140,000 miles or 5 years.

 

I suspect the first answer of 87,500 miles was the wrong conversion of km & miles.

In times before calculators, 1 km was 5/8 mile. It is very easy to multiply 140,000 x 5/8 to get 87,500.

The correct calculation should be 140,000 multiplied by 8/5 to get = 224,000 km.

 

I’m inclined to go with 140,000 miles or 5 years.

 

I know that if it doesn’t break, I will have to pay the money when it’s 5 years or has 140,000 miles the clock.

For me, (I’m old and worry about things) to spend the money earlier at 4years and have peace of mind would be worthwhile.

 

Regards, Retiredbri

Edited 1 September, 2017 by retiredbri
typo

[fabdavrav]

Old news, VAG had problems with the AUB 1.4 16v engines which supposedly had "fro life" or 6yrs100,000..I think..then when cars were hitting 5yrs old they were failing like mad..so swapped to 4yrs 60K I think...

 

I personally swap at the earliest time that VAG state..but the belts are each under less stress than th older design as the components & loads are spread across the belts on both ends on the engine instead on all at one end of the engine...

[Gaz]

I thought the only way to check a toothed belt properly is to take it off, invert it and check for any cracking at the bottom of the teeth.  I wouldn't put a belt back on after that anyway.  If you're worried, get it changed and be done with it.

 

Gaz

[retiredbri]

59 minutes ago, V6TDI said:

I thought the only way to check a toothed belt properly is to take it off, invert it and check for any cracking at the bottom of the teeth.  I wouldn't put a belt back on after that anyway.  If you're worried, get it changed and be done with it.

 

Gaz

 

Thanks Gaz,  I'm learning all the time.

I got waylaid by the Skoda website saying that,  at a Major Service, the Timing Belt could be inspected.

If only the first Skoda garage had explained it as you did, there would't have been any confusion.

[mobil531]

The timing/cam belt for the CHPA 1.4 tsi engine needs to be inspected at 240000 kms and thereafter every 30000 kms. Source Erwinskoda. As has the water pump belt. To inspect the timing belt involves releasing 2 clips and one fastener, removing the cover, and rotating the engine via the crank pulley. The water pump belt is a little more involved but doable.

The lack of product knowledge at the dealers is astounding. Here in Australia they want to change the belt at 105000 kms, a good earner for them I think.

My 2015 103 tsi wagon now has 64000 kms and has been and still is faultless. Very pleased. Will service it myself from now on as will be out of warranty in 4 months, intend to keep for 10 years or more.

Regards

Roger

[retiredbri]

Thanks for this Roger. The 240,000 km is about 140,000 miles (UK recommended Timing belt change)  and the 30,000 km is about 20,000 miles (the UK "major service). We have max 5 years on the Timing Belt and 2 years max on the Service.

 

If you do it yourself, you can make a decision. If I ask a garage to do the inspection, they would have to report. With our "fault/liability" mentality, I believe the garages don't want any hasstle  so just do not do inspections. By fitting a new belt regardless of the condition of the old belt, the garages can rely on the Skoda warranty when fitting new parts. 

 

Retiredbri

[silver1011]

More importantly Matthew at Skoda UK completely fails to acknowledge the website is extremely misleading.

 

Skoda UK are claiming ALL drive belts are inspected which has now been confirmed as incorrect.

 

Their website must be updated accordingly...

 

[match14]

Do the drive belts not refer to the drive belt for the alternator not the timing belt?

[silver1011]

Yes, I believe so, however as this thread demonstrates that isn't clear and it really ought to be given the importance of the cambelt.

[Gaz]

To be fair that checklist Silver's put up seems more to make reference to checking and adjusting the tension, rather than inspecting the belt itself.

 

So the belt could be shoite and about to pop, but as long as the tension's alright or adjusted correctly.... 

 

Gaz

Edited 3 September, 2017 by V6TDI

[bigjohn]

On 9/1/2017 at 22:31, fabdavrav said:

Old news, VAG had problems with the AUB 1.4 16v engines which supposedly had "fro life" or 6yrs100,000..I think..then when cars were hitting 5yrs old they were failing like mad..so swapped to 4yrs 60K I think...

 

I personally swap at the earliest time that VAG state..but the belts are each under less stress than th older design as the components & loads are spread across the belts on both ends on the engine instead on all at one end of the engine...

 

I had (er still have) the 1.4 16v engine in my old Octavia - Owners manual sad 110k miles , plastic pulley wheels/tensioners failed at about 56k - fortunately no damage to the engine and sorted under warranty

 

Since cambelt replacement for this age of engine revised to 40k 4 years

   

[threadbear]

19 hours ago, match14 said:

Do the drive belts not refer to the drive belt for the alternator not the timing belt?

 

I agree. Drive belts are the external belts such as alternator and power steering pump etc. Cambelt changes seem to be a continual subject of confusion. The service books state some 5 years or 87000 miles or whatever, yet the dealers state 4 years or 60000 miles. Obviously you could take that as a money spinning exercise on the part of the dealerships? 

 

But we are, as owners, are between a rock and a hard place, do we knowingly leave it or go and replace? Unfortunately the cambelt is an item we can't keep an eye, like other consumables like brake pads and tyres? I imagine there are many car owners who are unaware of the necessity of a belt change? 

 

I experienced a failed cambelt on a hired Transit minibus 30 years ago and it spun like a sewing machine due to lack of compression! 

 

I have also also gone with "sooner rather than later" with a cambelt going for a 4 year old change. Better than a wrecked engine. Go for peace of mind. 

Edited 4 September, 2017 by threadbear

[Ootohere]

Simples,  one set of numbers (miles / period of time) are for Fleet / Rental / Not private owners or just those handing vehicles back after 3 years with not a care in the world, Long Service Interval periods, ie not much gets done...

and those buying these used cars that will be out of manufacturers warranty need to think of it going pear shaped and some failure, so should maybe play safe and have belts / water pumps replaced sooner rather than later.

[silver1011]

13 hours ago, threadbear said:

 

I agree. Drive belts are the external belts such as alternator and power steering pump etc. Cambelt changes seem to be a continual subject of confusion. The service books state some 5 years or 87000 miles or whatever, yet the dealers state 4 years or 60000 miles. Obviously you could take that as a money spinning exercise on the part of the dealerships? 

 

I'm no mechanic but this thread alone would suggest that most of us would assume a 'drive belt' includes the cambelt. The cambelt on my car is external.

 

There is no time stipulation in the owners manual / service book, only mileage - this is the biggest cause of Skoda's rather embarrassing confusion over cambelt intervals.

 

The official line from Skoda UK and (the few) knowledgeable dealers is:

 

Vehicles registered before September 2010 - 4 years.

Vehicles registered after September 2010 - 5 years.

 

Mileage is as per the service book, or in the absence of a service book (now omitted from the latest models) a call to Skoda UK is required.

 

Either way, what is clear is that Skoda appear to be actively going out of their way to make life as difficult as possible for those of us wanting to properly understand the service requirements and intervals for our cars.

 

To claim all drive belts are checked on a major service on their website at the same time as telling customers over email that this isn't the case is wrong.

[classic]

It's amazing that with all the technology advances that make modern cars so good, they still have a rubber belt at their heart. 

Those that don't have traditional timing belts, have chains or even belts that run in oil. They supposedly last the life of the car which a manufacturer would probably say is 10 years.

I am convinced it's a deliberate perceived weak link to encourage people to change car when or before the warranty runs out. 

Cars run by lease/fleets will drive the car to the full 140k miles without a care in the world.

 

Edited 5 September, 2017 by classic
Grammar

[Alunakis]

From Maintenance Manual Skoda Octavia 2017 an image. Question: Do we believe the dealers or those who build the car?

[Ootohere]

Believe neither seeing as the VW Group Engineers are pleading guilty to being lying cheating barstewards while the Senior Management claim to be Deaf Dumb & Blind.

The VW Group policy is 'Three Monkeys' and treat not only Customers but Official Dealerships like Mushrooms.

 

So use your common sense and look at the 'Cautious' service intervals that VW give their engines when first produced rather than revised longer ones that are given once they find out how few 'Warranty Claims' they get away with in the first 3 or 4 years.

 

Compare the Servicing Schedules / Guidelines for the same engines when in a VW, Audi, SEAT or Skoda and how they are not 'All the same', 

then think, Location location location and how the vehicle might have been or is being used, maintained or serviced, 

& do you have a Valid Warranty or do you pay for Major Failures from your own pocket.

[Alunakis]

@Headinawayoffski It seems you're right. I found in my old downloads this:

(but what are market B and market C I didn't know very well)

Edited 5 September, 2017 by Alunakis

[indars]

Problem started when marketing guys came to engineers ;-) As usual.

When they expect that 1st owner will change car after 3 years / 100'000 km then it's nonsense to write (almost) any replacement schedules- to not scare VIP clients when they asks for full calculation for service till 200'000 km. Company cars, taxi's etc = big fleet of cars, I mean.

 

So, engine oil replacement interval is far enough nowadays, with that ^^ stupid tendency :-)

 

Just my personal old-school opinion: every rubber belt (or some rubber/poliamide maybe?) olden after 4...6 years and should be replaced anyway.

I don't really trust that "oval" cam gears, "progressive" construction and another stuff, written in Self-Study Programs can make them last MUCH MORE than 120'000km / 4...6 years.

Yes, construction/materials nowadays is much better than in '80...'90- but not two times better.

And don't forget rollers; think, exactly they last less than belts (ok, ok- maybe +/- same).

 

Asked local Škoda dealer about cambelt interval for 1.4TSI CHPA; answer was 120'000km; but I felt that it was just based on local experience and common sense :-)

 

Out of exact topic but anyway:

From user manual of my Mk1 Furby 1.4L 16v BBZ: (...) 1st check belt after 90'000km; then check if after every 30'000km (...) Replace in case of doubt (...)

1. Nothing can be normally checked before you dismantle whole front of engine (incl.dismounting of belts to feel roller's play).

2. When whole front is dismantled (and it's not 1H job)- it's not clever to place old good stuff back (and it's much more than 1H job).

 

So, am replacing good aftermarket belts, coolant pump and rollers every 90'000km/4 years (+coolant change at same time)- and that's it.

 

Took a look into info how that should be done for 1.4TSI CHPA- agree, it's more complicated that for my old Furby, hmm:

http://www.vwgolf.org/4_cylinder_injection_engine_1_4_1_direct_inction_turbocharger_-1591.html