PROPOSED 20 BLANKET LIMIT ON SCOTTISH ROADS

[skomaz]

10 hours ago, stever750 said:

I know I'm being pedantic, but on what basis can you make this claim? What evidence? 

 

Try this - Department for Transport Design Manual for Roads and Bridges Volume 11 HA 207/07:

 

Vehicle Emmission vs Speed (OK it specifically notes previous EU standards but the shape of the graphs hasn't changed.

 

 

[stever750]

OK, but  doesn't necessarily mean that the vehicle was designed to achieve this, it is possibly just the measurement, and not a target?

[mrgf]

Do you mean the claim that cars will be built with a lower speed fuel efficiency or that the usual fuel efficiency is usually around 40-50 MPH?

 

While you may have been being pedantic, you were not too clear what part you were asking about!

 

I did mention fuel efficiency but it seems to have been converted to emissions efficiency somehow. These could (And should) Have been cleaned up years ago and WILL improve with technology... Also, cleaner emissions and higher MPG have always followed, hand in glove, so to speak.

 

Oil companies have not really wanted lower fuel usage as its in their interest to use more, sell more. Same for Governments and taxation. There was a documented  Government leak which kind of stated that lower speed limits was a win-win situation as it slowed down traffic, burned more fuel and made more money in taxation for said fuel! However, it created more pollution from exhaust emissions so this itself needed addressing to keep a level playing field. Now though, we need better MPG as the oil rich nations have us dangling by the short and curlies and no-one likes that!

Think about this though... If everyone has an electric car, where do we all charge them up? I live in a block of 40 flats, on a small street with three similar sized blocks and a row of houses the opposite side. Parking restricted to one side as its too narrow. so we can't all park right out side and throw an extension lead out the window to plug in!

 

Petrol stations will need to be converted to plug in facilities and we will need to be able to charge within around 15 mins and cover around 200 miles per charge, in order to be worth going down that route. Now think of how we produce that vast extra amount of electricity to power the cars...  My guess is it will need to be nuclear power as we cannot get enough of any other fuel unless we still burn fossil fuel to provide it and that will still mean fumes and heat, on a colossal scale! The nuclear route will be heavily opposed as we will need to upgrade and clean up any nuclear power plant within around a hundred years and don't have the technology to do that yet... In the hundred year lifetime, we MAY just have it but if not, our children's children's children are still gonna grow an extra head and be covered in scales!

 

Edited 22 September, 2017 by mrgf

[mrgf]

"Only the OP's title is Blanket Limit.   not even Blanket Ban". 

 

True... Just a typo really but can't correct it. Sounds more fluent though! A blanket limit will still, arguably BE a blanket ban as you will be banned from going faster then the legal limit and if found to repeat offend, be banned from driving per-se!

Edited 22 September, 2017 by mrgf

[Ootohere]

Blanket limit or Default Limit if you wish, which can then be changed to a Max Limit to suit the location.

As happens now where the Default is 30 mph and this can be then changed by the local authority to 20 or 40 mph.

 

Scotland has different laws like the Drink Limits, like speed limits for different weights / lengths of vehicles on certain carriageways.

 

Local Authorities UK wide were supposed to do studies on different roads / locations and variations of speed limits and restrictions, 

some have and many have never got around to it.

 

'no current plans to lower speed limits', according to a Transport Scotland Spokesperson, maybe the Transport Ministers needs to bump his gums and then we can hear it from the Organ Grinder. (the one that forgot driving without insurance was illegal. 'Just an oversight'!

 So the Greens will need to get the bill passed and then the change in law. Maybe they will get that from the SNP, they need Greens on side.

http://stv.tv/news/politics/1397777-20mph-speed-limit-a-golden-opportunity-to-save-lives 

 

 

Edited 22 September, 2017 by Headinawayoffski

[stever750]

Maybe I misread your post, I took the inference that cars are currently designed to be most efficient at the speeds you mention, whereas it could be that's just where it is now. As far as I know (and I've worked in auto powertrain for must of the last 25 years) this is not a deliberate target, bear in mind there are differing roads and speed limits across Europe, let alone globally. 

[Ootohere]

I though up to the 1st September 2017 that EU Type Approved vehicles were designed to use least fuel going no place but in a Temperature Controlled Building on a rolling road being driven to meet a programme that did not represent real world, and had nothing to do with the outside world carrying passengers 

or goods / luggage and a vehicle with no extras just the most basic and maybe with over inflated tyres and diesel oil in the engine oil type thing.

http://skoda.co.uk/pages/fuel-consumption-statement.aspx 

 

New testing in place now for New Vehicles, but this will still be for a driver only, might be using Stop / Start,

Then those buying vehicles which might have a Light Hybrid or Full Fat Hybrid might just drive in built up areas using the Diesel or Petrol engine as many do now.

but might just be driving on Petrol or Diesel with with the Stop / Start switched off because they do not like it, find it dangerous, 

or the car decides it should be off, battery low, electric demand too high, ambient temp too low, or temp between heating setting in car and actual temp to different.

Edited 22 September, 2017 by Headinawayoffski

[stever750]

Pretty much George. Car manufacturers make to pass recognised ISO or regional / national standards, type approval. Nowhere does it state to my knowledge that a car should be most efficient at 40-50 mph, in fact the standard testing will involve an element of slow urban driving already, hence the three speeds traditionally quoted. There is indeed however a likely huge gap between tested emissions and actual... Oh wait.... 

[Ootohere]

 

Edited 22 September, 2017 by Headinawayoffski

[Ootohere]

Spot Channel 4 News Report deliberate mistake, or is there really a VW Golf 1.6 GTI Petrol or Diesel available.

The Sun Newspaper also showed a White VW Golf that was part of the Diesel Scandal, oddly it was a petrol Golf.

Edited 22 September, 2017 by Headinawayoffski

[Ootohere]

The Scottish Greens are going to vote with the SNP so that they get through their Budget for Scotland.

So it will be interesting to see just how soon there is a vote on introducing the 20 MPH default speed limit with the SNP MSP's voting with the Greens to get that through.

[Ootohere]

So the Scottish Government could not get the Budget passed without the votes of the Scottish Greens.

 

The deal they needed to do was that there will be Powers for Councils to set a Levy on 'Workplace Parking Places' in Scotland, so more taxation' in Scotland. 

& other various things like Legislation to allow a 'Tourist tax'. 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47056844

 

Shanks Pony, or get on your bike, bus, tram, train etc or just pay more for taking a car to work with parking places.  Well some will, likely not MSP's.

[Ootohere]

'Plan for standard 20 mph limits rejected.'

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48465941

 

[KenONeill]

Based on where I normally drive, a blanket 20mph limit would be the single surest way of getting most drivers to ignore speed limits.

[Aspman]

1 hour ago, KenONeill said:

Based on where I normally drive, a blanket 20mph limit would be the single surest way of getting most drivers to ignore speed limits.

 

I dunno. an inappropriate 20mph limit + lots of cameras = a pretty good income for the treasury.

[shyVRS245]

1 minute ago, Aspman said:

 

I dunno. an inappropriate 20mph limit + lots of cameras = a pretty good income for the treasury.

Good plan if you want to discourage tourists. Visit our town/city, collect fines and points on your licence. Not very attractive advertising is it?

[Aspman]

1 minute ago, shyVRS245 said:

Good plan if you want to discourage tourists. Visit our town/city, collect fines and points on your licence. Not very attractive advertising is it?

 

It's been a long time since I've seen any level of government give a **** about that sort of thing.

 

My local town scrapped parking charges to encourage visitors back into the town. They ran out of money and have brough charges back. It's wiped out the parking numbers so badly that after paying the meters and attendent it won't break even never mind produce an income.

[Ootohere]

The 20 mph was just to be the default speed then it would have required to be varied by councils. 

[shyVRS245]

33 minutes ago, Aspman said:

 

It's been a long time since I've seen any level of government give a **** about that sort of thing.

 

My local town scrapped parking charges to encourage visitors back into the town. They ran out of money and have brough charges back. It's wiped out the parking numbers so badly that after paying the meters and attendent it won't break even never mind produce an income.

We took advantage of FREE parking in our town last Bank Holiday Monday to collect a new lawnmower from Argos as I didn't fancy carrying it the half mile back to our house. Encourages shopping if they drop the usual charges. Shame hospitals don't think the same way as some councils.

[bspman]

A lot of roads locally are now 20mph.

 

Quite frankly it makes owning my car a PITA to drive around these parts and I can only imagine it's been done to make the roads more "hybrid friendly" (lower speeds - more likely to be using the electrics.

 

I miss twisty NSLs of the country 😞

[mac11irl]

On 31/05/2019 at 11:40, Skoffski said:

The 20 mph was just to be the default speed then it would have required to be varied by councils. 

Yeah... we were told that when our roads were swapped to metric.. all the R (Regional routes, think B road) were defaulted to 80kph, and National Primary/Secondary Roads (single carriage Aroad and "important" B roads) to 100kph to then be "individually assessed for speed alteration by LA". In... 10yrs since.. ive never seen an R road get bumped up to 100kph, even though we were told this would happen, when a section of road was shown to be suitable. Instead.. the Nat Pri/Sec routes are being down graded to 80kph... my cynical hat says this is councils playing the funding game for motorway extensions...("look at how the N24 has become a slower average journey.. we need the Motorway from Limerick to Waterford..". Same story on the Mitchelstown to Mallow road. Let get terrible, enforce a lower limit, beg for improvement money ..

Edited 6 June, 2019 by mac11irl

[Ootohere]

The difference was that it was to be the default instead of 30 mph limits, and the councils for that areas would need to then vary that to what ever speed.

As it is there are Local Authorities in Scotland and the RoUK that have not done the changes to road outwith the town limits that they were supposed to have done for a few years back now.

Edited 6 June, 2019 by Skoffski

[Ootohere]

Across the Scottish Borders there is going to be a trial starting of a 20mph limit in 91 communities where there is currently a 30 mph limit.

 

Here it says 80 towns and villages.

Yet it was on the BBC Scotland this morning i heard 91 'communities'. 

(Ceefax on the Red Button says "A region-wide rollout of a 20mph speed limit to more than 90 towns and villages across the Borders has began.")

http://bbc.co.uk/new/uk-scotland-south-scotland-53945560

Today.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-54373224

 

https://www.itv.com/news/border/2020-08-21/30mph-speed-limits-in-the-borders-set-to-be-reduced-to-20mph

 

 

 

 

Edited 5 October, 2020 by e-Roottoot

[PetrolDave]

2 hours ago, e-Roottoot said:

Across the Scottish Borders there is going to be a trial starting of a 20mph limit in 91 communities where there is currently a 30 mph limit.

20mph zones don't have a good record at reducing accidents:

Accidents in 20mph zones rise nearly 150% in three years

 

Plus most ICE vehicles have to run in a lower gear producing higher emissions than running at 30mph in a higher gear - so all round the benefit of 20mph zones is very questionable.

Edited 5 October, 2020 by PetrolDave

[shyVRS245]

The revenue from fines will increase along with the pollution from non EV's so a win the local authority/Police Force.