Okay. I have been plagued by this issue for too long now. I've replaced almost everything to do with fuel, bar the injector loom and the injectors.

 

BKD 2.0, cold. Runs fine.

 

Warms up within normal operation temperatures. No over heating, car splutters under load, slow down for say a round about and it dies on its arse. Never to be started again. No error codes within the ECU.

 

I've missed two MOTs dates, I need it for work, can't really afford to keep running mums petrol car to and from Gatwick.

 

Please help me before I burn it to the ground.

 

I've ordered another loom, but I've not taken things apart yet to look and see how things look inside...

Please, while reading this, bear in mind the newest diesel I've worked on was a Perkins in a crappy old Range Rover.

 

Electrically I think there's quite a lot of things that could cause this. As you've replaced everything up to the injectors and injector wiring I think it is safe to say that the whole thing is mechanically and electrically sound, at least up to those components. I'm also assuming you've checked there are no leaks, blockages or damage anywhere else.

 

I'd start with checking the injector signals before replacing anything. Injectors themselves, at least in older systems, should be visually checked for spray pattern and volume, not an easy DIY task. Before messing with that I'd perhaps lean towards checking easy stuff, like, the correct functioning of whatever kind of coolant temperature sensor and engine speed sensor this car has.

I've replaced almost all sensors, bar crank position sensor.

 

New injector loom on the way, should be Tuesday. I've taken the injectors out and checked one by one for anything obvious and checked the holes they sit in for any cracks. It all looks okay to me.

 

What's annoying me is that when it dies, there are no codes to go by. At first I thought it was a fuel issue (probably still is) But it doesn't really explain why it runs from cold fine, up until it's warm, unless I've missed something...

 

Friend came around with some kit and we tested the cables for signals to the injectors. Read out showed signals are being sent/detected on cranking, but is there a way I can test the loom whilst it's out of the engine? Simple multi meter?

 

Also tempted to send the injectors away to be looked at as I don't really have the money to spend on a new/used set.

2 hours ago, Volf said:

I've replaced almost all sensors, bar crank position sensor.

Did you make sure that the circuit functioned before doing this? If not there could still be a circuit problem on one or more sensors.

 

2 hours ago, Volf said:

What's annoying me is that when it dies, there are no codes to go by. At first I thought it was a fuel issue (probably still is) But it doesn't really explain why it runs from cold fine, up until it's warm, unless I've missed something...

It could happen that the computer is getting signals that appear to be correct so nothing triggers a code. Or, there could be pending codes being set but cleared after a drive cycle where this doesn't occur. Are you using VCDS or OBD2?

 

2 hours ago, Volf said:

Also tempted to send the injectors away to be looked at as I don't really have the money to spend on a new/used set.

If you suspect the injectors it is probably best to get them checked by someone with the right gear. Unlike with petrol injectors there's more to checking them than the volume of flow. In addition the pressures they operate at are pretty nasty and you don't want to be getting shot by a high pressure jet of diesel. However, it can be done at home, but I'd research that a lot before attempting it, if you were inclined to do so.

 

2 hours ago, Volf said:

Friend came around with some kit and we tested the cables for signals to the injectors. Read out showed signals are being sent/detected on cranking, but is there a way I can test the loom whilst it's out of the engine? Simple multi meter?

What kit did you use, a scope or something else? I'd want to see the signals from the injectors while the engine is running, so a set of breakout wires would be good there, then you can see if there is a good signal under different engine speeds. Even better if you had a long set of cables, route them into the passenger compartment and check what happens when the problem occurs.

 

If you don't have breakout wires and can't get hold of any, you could check the signals to each injector individually while the engine is running by using a sewing pin (commonly T pins are used) to back probe and measure the signal. The pin is stuck in, down where the wire joins the connector this gives you a direct link to the signal without damaging any wire or disturbing the connection. This of course should be done very carefully.

 

If there are good signals at the injectors, then it really isn't likely to be a loom issue. If there aren't good signals there then you'd have to step back up the circuit and check the signal nearer the computer (injector loom/engine loom interconnect maybe?). But, as you have seen some signals, I'm inclined to say the the loom is fine. You can check it for resistance/continuity out of the car with a regular meter, but that doesn't add much value once you have seen healthy signals anyway, but no harm in the belt and braces approach.

If it's ok when cold but getting issues when hot could it not be some circuit breaking with components or connectors heating up?

 

You can get a similar thing on computer motherboards. They run fine until they heat up then something expands and causes an open circuit somewhere. It's called creep.

 

18 hours ago, LightRain said:

Did you make sure that the circuit functioned before doing this? If not there could still be a circuit problem on one or more sensors.

 

I unplugged the temp sensors one by one and each time the fans started up, so I assumed they where working. Also as the temp gauge reads normal I thought at least one of them was working to be reading out on the gauge.

 

18 hours ago, LightRain said:

It could happen that the computer is getting signals that appear to be correct so nothing triggers a code. Or, there could be pending codes being set but cleared after a drive cycle where this doesn't occur. Are you using VCDS or OBD2?

 

Sadly I don't have either, Have a bluetooth OBD2 reader and Torque Pro on the phone. I should really get my own VCDS/RossTech.

 

18 hours ago, LightRain said:

If you suspect the injectors it is probably best to get them checked by someone with the right gear. Unlike with petrol injectors there's more to checking them than the volume of flow. In addition the pressures they operate at are pretty nasty and you don't want to be getting shot by a high pressure jet of diesel. However, it can be done at home, but I'd research that a lot before attempting it, if you were inclined to do so.

 

Yeah there's a place down my way in the industrial estate which deal with them. Already contacted them and was quoted £30+vat for each injector and get print outs from the tests. Thought this would be the better way as I can't really afford another set. They also mentioned a two day turn around time.

 

18 hours ago, LightRain said:

What kit did you use, a scope or something else? I'd want to see the signals from the injectors while the engine is running, so a set of breakout wires would be good there, then you can see if there is a good signal under different engine speeds. Even better if you had a long set of cables, route them into the passenger compartment and check what happens when the problem occurs.

 

If you don't have breakout wires and can't get hold of any, you could check the signals to each injector individually while the engine is running by using a sewing pin (commonly T pins are used) to back probe and measure the signal. The pin is stuck in, down where the wire joins the connector this gives you a direct link to the signal without damaging any wire or disturbing the connection. This of course should be done very carefully.

 

If there are good signals at the injectors, then it really isn't likely to be a loom issue. If there aren't good signals there then you'd have to step back up the circuit and check the signal nearer the computer (injector loom/engine loom interconnect maybe?). But, as you have seen some signals, I'm inclined to say the the loom is fine. You can check it for resistance/continuity out of the car with a regular meter, but that doesn't add much value once you have seen healthy signals anyway, but no harm in the belt and braces approach.

 

I'm not sure what it was. It was quite a large unit, big screen, bright yellow... (I know, that really narrows it down!) Just at the time of testing the cables, the engine wouldn't fire. Had ran before, but each time it stalls, it's almost impossible to get started again. I've not be able to work out a time frame from when it stalls, to when it can start again. But when we were cranking it over, he told me signals are being sent. But that's only the wiring loom on the outside of the block. That's not a bad idea at all, get it running again and have something logging the info as it drives, Will have to work something out for that one.

 

The new injector loom should be here Tuesday, But hopefully I'll be sending the injectors away that day too (Day off) and then get back on it for Thursday with any luck. Failing that, always the weekend.

 

9 hours ago, FatblokeVRS said:

If it's ok when cold but getting issues when hot could it not be some circuit breaking with components or connectors heating up?

 

You can get a similar thing on computer motherboards. They run fine until they heat up then something expands and causes an open circuit somewhere. It's called creep.

 

 

This is what I was thinking with the internal injector loom, or something else some where which I've not found yet.

 

Didn't know it was called 'creep', Learn something new every day 

I'm reading up on relays and such. Could that be an issue? Heat causing a relay to stay open/shut?

 

Also going to remove the EGR pipe and shudder valve to see how it looks and give a clean if needed. If the shudder valve shut whilst driving, wouldn't that make the engine stall at low RPM? Or would it be more sudden at any RPM?

Then again, shouldn't that make the CEL come on if it was failing?

As mentioned before, when the engine stalls, there are no codes to go by. But as I don't have VCDS, Would that show more info?

Have contacted a few people on here about VCDS and beer money 

With proper VCDS you can see exactly what each injector is doing in real time. I have an injector issue that was picked up by a friend with VCDS. It showed that one injector was being "throttled" right back as it was leaking and supplying too much per duty cycle. This affected the other injectors as they tried to compensate leading to very lumpy idle.

 

This is not something that is picked up by code readers as no code is stored. You need to get someone in to read the output as the car warms from cold to see what is changing. You also need that someone to know what they are doing and what to look at. To the untrained eye a lot of the numbers and outputs are meaningless.

 

Good luck - I have the same engine!

1 hour ago, Golf-Fiend said:

Good luck - I have the same engine!

 

Do you fancy a swap? Got a bag of chocolate buttons to seal the deal... 

43 minutes ago, Volf said:

 

Do you fancy a swap? Got a bag of chocolate buttons to seal the deal... 

 

Well I'm still waiting for my injector swap. Got a used one from fleabay plus new seals and set of bolts for the injector and finger rocker strip as they are use once bolts. A trusted car guru told me it's quite unusual for PD injectors to fail hence taking a gamble on a used one. New they are £700 from a dealer. EACH!!!! Yikes! 

1 hour ago, Golf-Fiend said:

 

Well I'm still waiting for my injector swap. Got a used one from fleabay plus new seals and set of bolts for the injector and finger rocker strip as they are use once bolts. A trusted car guru told me it's quite unusual for PD injectors to fail hence taking a gamble on a used one. New they are £700 from a dealer. EACH!!!! Yikes! 

 

*Urk*

 

Yeah... I think I'll stick to used for now! Will be removing mine tomorrow and dropping them off to a shop to work on/clean ect

I found Darkside Develoment the cheapest place to get OEM bolts and seals to refit them. You need new stuff to do it as the bolts are specified torque then turn 270 degree etc. 

How are things going?

Ah, Forgot to update here.

Changed the injector loom to no effect. Gave up after that, it's been about two months now of head scratching and doing what I can do, but booked it into Vass-tech for the 8th. See what they can find...

On 16/10/2017 at 09:11, Volf said:

I unplugged the temp sensors one by one and each time the fans started up, so I assumed they where working. Also as the temp gauge reads normal I thought at least one of them was working to be reading out on the gauge.

It seems you only have the pre and post radiator sensors. So one of them should at least feed the gauge. If the fans come on when you unplug each of them then I'd assume the computer can tell something is not right with the circuit and puts them on for safety. An unplugged sensor should make the computer think that the temperature is colder than it is, if it didn't sense the unplugging.

 

On 16/10/2017 at 09:11, Volf said:

I should really get my own VCDS/RossTech.

It certainly helps to see exactly what is happening at the time. This is very useful when hunting for a cause to a problem.

 

On 16/10/2017 at 09:11, Volf said:

But when we were cranking it over, he told me signals are being sent. But that's only the wiring loom on the outside of the block. That's not a bad idea at all, get it running again and have something logging the info as it drives, Will have to work something out for that one.

I guess he had some sort of scope or graphing multimeter. They're pretty much the only tools (without VCDS) that will allow you to see waveforms and signals with timing in real time. I hope you measured current, this would really let you know if the injector is actually firing properly. However, getting the right signal through is a good sign.

 

 

2 hours ago, Volf said:

Changed the injector loom to no effect. Gave up after that, it's been about two months now of head scratching and doing what I can do, but booked it into Vass-tech for the 8th. See what they can find.

Well that's a shame.

 

Did you get your injectors tested/cleaned?

Anyway, I hope those guys can help you with your problem. Electrical problems that require more than a meter and test light are pretty hard to sort out and the cost of time and equipment may just not be worth it when you can get a professional to do the diagnosis for you.

Keep us posted