Wireless heating controls

[skinnyman]

I'm looking for some advice from folks who know more than me and who might have done what I'd like to.

 

We have a Worcester Bosch combi boiler and an old style Honeywell thermostat.  The timer is on the boiler (the old pin system) and has a switch to turn it off, onto timer or permanently on.

 

I'd like to have a system such as the Netamo,

https://www.netatmo.com/en-GB/product/energy/thermostat

 

This would bring us a bit more up to date and give me a bit more control over the temperatures in the house.

 

Anyway, I need some advice on a couple of things.

 

1.  Can I put the receiver for such a system where the old thermostat is?  The location is wrong for a thermostat as it's behind an open door and is exposed to draughts (old house).  In my naivety I am thinking that the receiver can be located there and then the wireless thermostat can be put somewhere more suitable.

 

2.   As far as I'm aware the old thermostat is simply an ON/OFF switch that sends a signal to the boiler.  The receiver is also a switch that does the same job when it gets a signal from the thermostat, wherever it may be.  Is my understanding of this too simplistic and will it be more complex than a simple swap over?

 

I would appreciate any advice on this as I'm happy to do this myself if it's a case of turning the power off and swapping the thermostat for the new receiver.  If it's not then I'd prefer to get someone in to sort it for me.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Andrew.

 

edit : I've attached a poor quality photo of the current thermostat to show what wiring is there.

[VWD]

Skinnyman- I'm not a boiler specialist, but I took advice from experts. When I moved into present place, it had no stat, and boiler ( Baxi bermuda back boiler situated in kitchen ) had pump and etc upstairs ( directly above) in the airing cupboard. The heating control unit lived up there ,in one of the kids bedrooms, so want to put the heating on / adjust the temperature- it was go into kids room/wake them up ,which was not something we needed. First step was to find the Stat link- ( you've got a stat, so one problem removed). A stat ( from my limited understanding of CH) is an on/off thermal switch which makes contact when the temperature drops . Theory is not important . MOST send MAINS volts to the stat to complete the circuit- so if not happy working with 250V AC - FIND SOMEONE WHO IS . My stat ended up where I thought was best - lounge wall. I checked out the wiring from the CH control unit and drew a sketch/ ran the cables and did the work.

Stat ended up in lounge ( where it still sits, despite an ancient gas fitter trying to move it) ,and CH control unit was sited in kitchen.

BUT- BEWARE- most of the control systems operate a 250V AC  system. I'm happy/trained and comfortable with safe working up to over 4.5KV. If you are not happy working with 250V AC, then find a pro .

If you feel happy to carry on-then first buy a neon screwdriver ,and before ASSUMING that a wire carries no voltage- TEST the screwdriver on a known LIVE circuit.

Edited 6 November, 2017 by VWD

[KenONeill]

@skinnyman - I'm no expert, but rather than having a central thermostat (one size fits all rooms except it clearly doesn't) when my parents had their boiler updated (~1910 stone-built house) they had individual thermostatic supply valves fitted to all the radiators on the CHS. These have no electrical parts, and rely on a supply of hot water.

[SWBoy]

13 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

@skinnyman - I'm no expert, but rather than having a central thermostat (one size fits all rooms except it clearly doesn't) when my parents had their boiler updated (~1910 stone-built house) they had individual thermostatic supply valves fitted to all the radiators on the CHS. These have no electrical parts, and rely on a supply of hot water.

When we moved into a new (to us) house in March it had thermostatic valves on every radiator but no thermostat - the gas bills were horrendous as the boiler would run whenever the timer was set to on. So I got a Honeywell Lyric T6R Wifi thermostat fitted by a professional, and that has halved our gas bills while still keeping us warm. IMHO you need both a thermostat AND thermostatic valves for an energy efficient system.

[Warrior193]

46 minutes ago, SWBoy said:

When we moved into a new (to us) house in March it had thermostatic valves on every radiator but no thermostat - the gas bills were horrendous as the boiler would run whenever the timer was set to on. So I got a Honeywell Lyric T6R Wifi thermostat fitted by a professional, and that has halved our gas bills while still keeping us warm. IMHO you need both a thermostat AND thermostatic valves for an energy efficient system.

Agree with the thermostatic radiator valve (TRV) and thermostat combination - important, one radiator should be left WITHOUT a TRV fitted, preferably in the coldest part of the house.

One of the wireless thermostats (with the receiver fitted to the boiler) will allow you to place it in the best position to allow proper control. 

[skinnyman]

44 minutes ago, SWBoy said:

IMHO you need both a thermostat AND thermostatic valves for an energy efficient system.

 

Thanks for the replies.  All the points have been noted and I'll look into the Honeywell system as well as the Netamo.  I plan to get some newer valves on some of the radiators but at the last count, we have 15 radiators. 

 

In theory the wireless systems allow you to program them individually so that certain parts of the house don't need to be heated at certain times of the day.  I watched the film The Money Pit back in the 80s and then ended up buying one myself. 

 

The boiler is okay & most of the radiators have thermostatic valves but the location of the thermostat itself is wrong.  I'm looking for a simple fix where the wireless receiver can be put in place of the thermostat.  

 

 

[SWBoy]

1 hour ago, Warrior193 said:

important, one radiator should be left WITHOUT a TRV fitted, preferably in the coldest part of the house.

Either that or have a pressure operated bypass valve fitted - our boiler has one built-in so we have TRVs on every radiator.

[SWBoy]

8 minutes ago, skinnyman said:

The boiler is okay & most of the radiators have thermostatic valves but the location of the thermostat itself is wrong.  I'm looking for a simple fix where the wireless receiver can be put in place of the thermostat. 

With any wireless thermostat the receiver can be fitted in the same location as the programmer (and the wiring to any existing wired thermostat removed/disconnected), and the thermostat located wherever makes most sense (assuming it will be within range of the receiver).

[skinnyman]

18 minutes ago, SWBoy said:

With any wireless thermostat the receiver can be fitted in the same location as the programmer (and the wiring to any existing wired thermostat removed/disconnected), and the thermostat located wherever makes most sense (assuming it will be within range of the receiver).

 

That's what was thinking about the location for the receiver.  What I can't seem to get a definitive answer on is can the three wires in the picture above simply be connected to the wireless receiver?  

 

edit : the programmer is on the boiler in the form of the old pin system

Edited 6 November, 2017 by skinnyman

[mac11irl]

1 hour ago, Warrior193 said:

Agree with the thermostatic radiator valve (TRV) and thermostat combination - important, one radiator should be left WITHOUT a TRV fitted, preferably in the coldest part of the house.

One of the wireless thermostats (with the receiver fitted to the boiler) will allow you to place it in the best position to allow proper control. 

I put TRVs everywhere, the open section is the loop that runs through the copper cylinder for hot water, as we dont have a combi boiler. The open loop is to stop any pressure damage to the boiler when all the valves close off.

@fabiamk2SE should be able to advise on this better though

[fabiamk2SE]

Cheers mac11irl

 

In short, yes you can put it where the existing room stat is and use the 2 signal wires. However... take a look at the wiring diagram for that specific one (im not familiar with that one) as most of the wireless receivers require a permanent live as well as the switch wires. 

 

Changing the TRV valve heads is generally a case of just swapping existing with these. However, try and confirm your make of TRV's is one the Netatmo supports.. otherwise you're changing the valve bodies aswel which is a bigger job. 

[KenONeill]

16 hours ago, SWBoy said:

When we moved into a new (to us) house in March it had thermostatic valves on every radiator but no thermostat - the gas bills were horrendous as the boiler would run whenever the timer was set to on. So I got a Honeywell Lyric T6R Wifi thermostat fitted by a professional, and that has halved our gas bills while still keeping us warm. IMHO you need both a thermostat AND thermostatic valves for an energy efficient system.

So you're saying that the boiler storage tank didn't have a thermostat control for the burner!?

[fabiamk2SE]

3 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

So you're saying that the boiler storage tank didn't have a thermostat control for the burner!?

  I think hes on about a room thermostat? 

 

The bills will be alot more without one.. TRV’s will control the individual room temperature but a room stat is needed as a physical switch to turn the boiler off. Otherwise its cycling and using much more gas

[KenONeill]

11 minutes ago, fabiamk2SE said:

  I think hes on about a room thermostat? 

 

The bills will be alot more without one.. TRV’s will control the individual room temperature but a room stat is needed as a physical switch to turn the boiler off. Otherwise its cycling and using much more gas

So you're saying that if $room is at the desired temperature there's no need to run the boiler, regardless of the temperature of the water in the boiler?

[SWBoy]

4 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

So you're saying that if $room is at the desired temperature there's no need to run the boiler, regardless of the temperature of the water in the boiler?

Yes, if the room is at the desired temperature then the room thermostat will turn off the pump, making the boiler water temperature irrelevant.

[KenONeill]

2 minutes ago, SWBoy said:

Yes, if the room is at the desired temperature then the room thermostat will turn off the pump, making the boiler water temperature irrelevant.

OK, you clearly think you know more about this than I do. Explain to me exactly how disabling the burners (and/or pump) because one room is at your desired temperature for that room actually heats the rest of the house! When answering, bear in mind that I am aware that the pump needs to run to make water circulate, and that "cold" water won't make radiators hot.

[Kenny R]

If the central heating system has been fitted with the correct size radiator in each room and is balanced correctly then if the set temp is reached on the thermostat in one room  all other rooms should be at a similar temperature. 

[fabiamk2SE]

1 hour ago, KenONeill said:

So you're saying that if $room is at the desired temperature there's no need to run the boiler, regardless of the temperature of the water in the boiler?

 

Yes mate. 

 

The water temp in the radiators is set with the thermostat on the boiler. The higher thats set, the quicker the room heats up and the quicker the room stat is satisfied and turns off the boiler. 

 

Once the room temp drops a few degrees, the room stat tells the boiler to turn on again, until its satisfied again. 

[fabiamk2SE]

1 hour ago, KenONeill said:

OK, you clearly think you know more about this than I do. Explain to me exactly how disabling the burners (and/or pump) because one room is at your desired temperature for that room actually heats the rest of the house! When answering, bear in mind that I am aware that the pump needs to run to make water circulate, and that "cold" water won't make radiators hot.

 

The room stat should be in the core of the house (hall perhaps. Not a kitchen or a room with another heat source) where there is a control radiator, this radiator should not have a TRV. 

 

The other radiators (except bathrooms) should have TRV’s and these control the air temp in that room depending on what number theyre set to on the valve. 

[KenONeill]

2 hours ago, fabiamk2SE said:

 

The room stat should be in the core of the house (hall perhaps. Not a kitchen or a room with another heat source) where there is a control radiator, this radiator should not have a TRV. 

 

The other radiators (except bathrooms) should have TRV’s and these control the air temp in that room depending on what number theyre set to on the valve. 

And when the hall/stairway has a similar volume (very different dimensions but similar volume) to the domestic rooms?

[VWD]

Just now, fabiamk2SE said:

 

The room stat should be in the core of the house (hall perhaps. Not a kitchen or a room with another heat source) where there is a control radiator, this radiator should not have a TRV. 

 

The other radiators (except bathrooms) should have TRV’s and these control the air temp in that room depending on what number theyre set to on the valve. 

i can testify to the  need for a seperate  room stat. Recently ours went s/c and heating was on full time ,irrespective of the radiator stats.

But in older times, getting the installer to fit the stat in the right place was almost impossible. Last update before the combi, I had to fight to keep stat in lounge, not at top of stairs ( because it was a a lot easier to wire in ). Combi change -no problems - stat was wired in situ and was left there . 

[Aspman]

honest advice.

 

I wouldn't touch anything that needs a smartphone / tablet app to work.

 

Generally the manufacturer will only support it for a short while and when you get a new phone ir things move to Android 9 (or whatever) you'll have a very expensive brick on you wall.

 

For the same reason I worry about ap enabled cars etc.  The software is just not maintained. So as long as you are happy to replace every 2-5yr or possibly see it just stop (like with Google and Hive).

 

I'd look for a wireless thermostat that isn't 'smart'. you won;t be able to control it with your phone but it'll last a lot longer.

[fabiamk2SE]

3 hours ago, KenONeill said:

And when the hall/stairway has a similar volume (very different dimensions but similar volume) to the domestic rooms?

 

Not sure what you're getting at here? 

 

Thats building regs requirements that i explained earlier btw.. i haven't just made it up lol. 

 

Rooms size has little to do with anything other than the positioning and sizing of the radiators. 

Edited 7 November, 2017 by fabiamk2SE

[fabiamk2SE]

1 hour ago, Aspman said:

honest advice.

 

I wouldn't touch anything that needs a smartphone / tablet app to work.

 

Generally the manufacturer will only support it for a short while and when you get a new phone ir things move to Android 9 (or whatever) you'll have a very expensive brick on you wall.

 

For the same reason I worry about ap enabled cars etc.  The software is just not maintained. So as long as you are happy to replace every 2-5yr or possibly see it just stop (like with Google and Hive).

 

I'd look for a wireless thermostat that isn't 'smart'. you won;t be able to control it with your phone but it'll last a lot longer.

 

Can't they update using the wifi connection which they use anyway to connect to your phone? 

 

 

[KenONeill]

16 hours ago, fabiamk2SE said:

 

Not sure what you're getting at here? 

 

Thats building regs requirements that i explained earlier btw.. i haven't just made it up lol. 

 

Rooms size has little to do with anything other than the positioning and sizing of the radiators. 

Big hint - not everyone lives in a new build "Barrett Box".  Oh and see:-

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/thermostat.png