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Dangerous tyre wear on inside shoulder


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Found rear tyre flat on Friday morning, took wheel off to find inside shoulder worn through down to (and through!) the wire plies in spite of there being plenty of tread on rest of tyre. Put emergency spare on, then checked other rear tyre to find same problem. Tyres are P7 235/45 R18 on a Superb 220 Estate, had done 20000 miles on the rears.

 

Just a warning to other people to look out for this, because a normal visual/feel tread check from the side doesn't spot the problem, it's right on the inside edge only and you can only see it by getting under the car at the rear. Could easily have blown out doing 80 on the motorway with horrible consequences...

 

ATS replaced them this morning, also the two fronts which also had bad wear on the inside edge -- will take car to dealer to get tracking/alignment checked (VW leasing insist on this, not getting ATS to do it).

 

Didn't spot this in spite of doing a regular visual/feel check of tread, as you can see there was still a good 4mm of tread over all the visible/easily reachable part, so this could easily happen to other people with much worse results :-(

 

 

tyre.jpg

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Dangerous Tyre wear, dangerous alignment then.

  Be sure those that can set up the Alignment check are competent at making the adjustments required.

Not all the gear and little idea.

 

?

What tyre pressures do you run?

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Car is leased through VW/Skoda finance, PCH with full maintenance/tyres, alignment will be done by local main dealer (Willis Skoda in Ruislip) who supplied the car and arranged the finance -- so whoever pays for it, it ain't going to be me (anyway, leasing has already agreed to pay, and they paid for 4 new tyres).

 

Yes it's the first set of tyres, car is less than two years old. Tyre pressures are standard as on inside of filler cap, can't remember them off the top of my head.

Edited by IanJD
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Its a good job you found the tyre wear before it caused an accident. It may indeed be poor tracking/alignment. It could also be caused by so called sleeping policemen. These speed reduction pads set in the road by Highway Authorities across the UK and on the Continent will produce such catastrophic wear of tyres very quickly if you  straddle them and drive across on the side slopes at anything more than a walking pace. Having said that your tyres are less likely to be damaged if you put one wheel on the centre of the pad and the other off the pad. However that is  (1) uncomfortable and (2) risks damaging your springs.

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There are a lot of sleeping policemen here (west London) and I do straddle them rather than bouncing off the roof, since the Superb has a pretty wide track this works well. Apart from anecdotes, is there any real evidence that this causes such terrible inside shoulder tyre wear? The wear is over the whole circumference of both rear tyres, the front ones were also worn but less bad (but then they were replaced last year).

 

I guess I go over maybe 10 speed cushions per day on average, but some days the number is higher -- driving to my sons in North London and back the other day I bet I drove over getting on for a hundred. I do slow down to go over them to 15-20mph if they're steep/big, 25-30mph if they're smaller/shallower.

 

But this would explain the wear, it almost looks like somebody's taken a grinding wheel to the inside shoulders and planed off 5-10mm of rubber at an angle, and I can't see how bad alignment could cause this. On the other hand proving this would be difficult, and which council do I sue when all the ones in London have such "speed cushions"?

Edited by IanJD
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2 hours ago, Caspian said:

These speed reduction pads set in the road by Highway Authorities across the UK and on the Continent will produce such catastrophic wear of tyres very quickly if you  straddle them and drive across on the side slopes at anything more than a walking pace. Having said that your tyres are less likely to be damaged if you put one wheel on the centre of the pad and the other off the pad. However that is  (1) uncomfortable and (2) risks damaging your springs.

 

Internet myth promoted by Honest John, some wear is done but is minimal in comparison to the distances covered in normal driving.

Edited by xman
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IanJD,

I can understanding you not remembering the tyre pressures as they are set as the fuel filler,

but was that for full load or some other pressure, and how often do you check them?

 

To me it does look like a pressure issue.

But with the new tyres on now the 4 Wheel Alignment check should show if that is the cause.

 

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I thought under inflation causes both shoulders to wear? And over inflation wears the middle?

51 minutes ago, Offski said:

IanJD,

I can understanding you not remembering the tyre pressures as they are set as the fuel filler,

but was that for full load or some other pressure, and how often do you check them?

 

To me it does look like a pressure issue.

But with the new tyres on now the 4 Wheel Alignment check should show if that is the cause.

 

 

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You understand correctly.  The point being there is an issue so find out if Camber Wear, or Toe Wear & what the cause is, and is it a spring or just alignment that caused feathering or worse as in this case.

Knowing what the pressures are and then checking tyres is kind of important obviously.

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Pressures were set to the normal load recommended ones and checked reasonably regularly, and I almost never needed to add any air. As was pointed out the wear pattern looks nothing like under-inflation (both edges wear more than middle), over-inflation (middle wears more than edges) or misalignment (wear gradient from one edge to the other, or feathering at one edge). If you look at the picture the wear is normal from the outside edge to the last deep groove and then shelves off rapidly, you can clearly see this by looking at the profile of the type at the top of the picture. The outer edge looks normal but the inner one is grossly worn -- it's not just that the steel cords were exposed, they were worn through more than one layer of steel, where on the outer edge they're still covered by normal thickness rubber.

 

There are a lot of so-called "speed cushions" round here, some the type with sharp edges, and yes I do always straddle them when possible because this causes much less disturbance to the ride -- and I do slow down, but not to walking pace. This sounds to me to be the most likely explanation for the strange wear pattern, especially since it was not only on both back tyres (down to and through the cords) but also on both front tyres (inner shoulders similarly much more worn than outer ones, tyres were replaced last year). I'm going to get the alignment checked on all four wheels, but this wear/damage pattern doesn't fit any misalignment I can think of.

 

Honest John might be accused of promoting an Internet myth, but similar damage has been seen by quite a lot of people where no alignment error has been found and regular driving over speed cushions happens. The FOI replies from the government are not helpful, all they say is that there's little or no evidence that driving over straight speed bumps at sensible speeds causes suspension damage when this is not the question being asked. If this inner edge damage is common (and it seems to be) then local or national government is unlikely to want to admit that the cause is speed cushions since they'd have to then pay up huge sums nationwide for tyre damage, since it looks like this happens even when driving at the recommended speeds.

 

 

Edited by IanJD
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If the toe was out I would expect noticeable lateral graining, but fairly even wear. It looks like the camber is a mile out to my very non-expert eyes… especially with that outer to inner gradient of wear. You obviously saw it in the flesh, but if you look at the wear bars and central sips it looks quite gradual to me. Speed bumps would only cause additional wear to the point of contact surely? Could also be a snapped/faulty spring(s) that’s allowing it to squat (camber again), but you would need to be lucky (unlucky?) to have it reseat without a tilt, bottoming out or not present other symptoms.

It’s great that the leasing company are covering it… was that a verbal offer? I would have expected the accident/pothole damage excuse and would get an independent check first… with lots of pictures taken.

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I have seen the same with Dunlop Sport Maxx 205/40 R 17's on mk2 Fabia vRS. 

Drivers unaware before being shown the tyres. Tyres down to the cords.

Seen it on other cars as well.  

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1 minute ago, Alan_P said:

If the toe was out I would expect noticeable lateral graining, but fairly even wear. It looks like the camber is a mile out to my very non-expert eyes… especially with that outer to inner gradient of wear. You obviously saw it in the flesh, but if you look at the wear bars and central sips it looks quite gradual to me. Speed bumps would only cause additional wear to the point of contact surely? Could also be a snapped/faulty spring(s) that’s allowing it to squat (camber again), but you would need to be lucky (unlucky?) to have it reseat without a tilt, bottoming out or not present other symptoms.

It’s great that the leasing company are covering it… was that a verbal offer? I would have expected the accident/pothole damage excuse and would get an independent check first… with lots of pictures taken.

Look at the top edge -- normal shape all the way from outer edge to innermost deep groove, then a sudden fall-away in profile. I believe springs and ride height are fine, and as I said other rear tyre showed same pattern of damage. Tyres already replaced and paid for by leasing company, waiting for them to arrange appointment for tracking check (at dealer the car was bought through). If they refuse I'll point out to them that it's their car and their tyres, and if it is a tracking problem (probably there from new) they'll end up having to pay for more replacement tyres sooner, The advantage of having it all dealt with through VW/Skoda is that hopefully they can argue between themselves who's going to pay for it, and it won't be me...

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I thought it was difficult to tell with the angled parcel shelf behind the profile in your image. Looking (guessing) at the 2mm wear bars it looked a bit more gradual to me. I’m obviously estimating the depths from a static image though and you saw it first-hand. A lot more stress on the outer edge when the camber is out than the main carcass though.

t1.jpg.57a2382c46589a7b0db6adf474f327d2.jpg

With only 8mm difference in track, would speed bumps not cause similar damage to the front too… or am I missing something? I see people suggesting the rear factory camber is too aggressive… mostly on sport models though.

Found this: https://www.discounttiredirect.com/learn/wheel-alignment

…and added a few images that claim to be from too much negative camber.

c1.jpg.67c12356c49ec54a29b95010a7267111.jpg
c2.jpg.08a3d91c93ba913a590410113fbec5e4.jpg
c3.jpg.a5aec35dedccd57e1703046da356b431.jpg

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To cause the amount of inner shoulder wear I had would need a huge amount of negative camber (like you sometimes see on lowriders with **** can exhausts) and I certainly don't have that. As I also said the fronts (also replaced) were showing signs of similar wear, though less advanced because they were replaced last year.

 

So my money's still on speed cushion damage, but it'll be interesting to see what they find when the tracking is checked...

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14 hours ago, xman said:

 

Internet myth promoted by Honest John, some wear is done but is minimal in comparison to the distances covered in normal driving.

 

Read about this nonsense probably 7 or 8 years ago now and posted a message to Honest John with my personal experience asking for his opinion, never replied, so this is what happened.

 

Been straddling speed cushions for as long as I can remember, its always seemed logical, it must put less stain on the car since both sides of the suspension are doing the same amount of work. In our Mondeo and now in the Superb get it right and you don't actually touch the cushion.

 

Back in late 2005 bought a Focus. 14,000 miles later I spotted that the inside edges of the front tyres were worn to the legal limit but the outside edges still had plenty of tread. Never considered speed cushions as the cause so simply had the car tracked (it was well out) and 2 new tyres fitted. 20,000 miles later the fornt and rear tyres ahd all worn perfectly evenly but needed replacing again since they were down to about 2mm. When we sold the car about 10,000 miles later the new tyres had all worn evenly. From 14,000 miles to approx 44,000 miles we carried on straddling speed cushions.

 

So when I read Honest Johns myth I asked him why in my experience did the inside edge wear mysteriously stop once the car had been tracked and never happen again despite not changing our driving habits. He was obviously lost for words.

 

Honest John has given good advice but some is plain nonsense. Only the other week he told a poster that they should always use premium branded diesel in their car despite the poster making it clear the car was a petrol. I suspect most postings by Honest John are made by a "dolls head" in the office.

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stock Pirelli P7 215/55r17 were blew up after ~17000km,

replaced by 225/55r17 97Y Michelin Primacy 3 (paid by me not Škoda or Pirelli)

 

and installed Direct Tire Pressure Monitoring System

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/434028-tire-pressure-monitoring-system/?tab=comments#comment-4893182

 

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That isn't speed cushion damage, it's geometry related.

 

The rear alignment issues on the MkIII Superb have been carried over from the MkII Octavia and MkII Superb.

 

Google 'VAG saw-toothing', it's a common VAG issue, that some believe is related to their independent rear suspension set-up, the motoring forums are full of it.

 

Sometimes it results in droning, sometimes its silent. One car can suffer horrendously, another identical car doesn't. What is consistent though is excessive inner edge tyre wear on the rear...

 

https://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-article/saw-tooth-tyre-wear

 

Another potential consideration is the brand of tyre. I've only ever suffered from this once on my Superb, and the tyres were Pirelli's, the same as the OP's.

 

Here, only a few posts down from this one we have another complaint around potential concerns with the Pirelli P7

 

So the likely hood of saw-toothing could be heavily influenced by the tyre itself...

 

 

Edited by silver1011
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If the alignment is paid for by VW leasing and done at a dealership they might not be as forthcoming with the results, but hopefully they provide before and after figures. Not sure if you have a Sportline, but I have attached a Hunter print off for standard suspension… very interested in your results :thumbup:
 

2 hours ago, IanJD said:

To cause the amount of inner shoulder wear I had would need a huge amount of negative camber (like you sometimes see on lowriders with **** can exhausts) and I certainly don't have that. As I also said the fronts (also replaced) were showing signs of similar wear, though less advanced because they were replaced last year.

 

So my money's still on speed cushion damage, but it'll be interesting to see what they find when the tracking is checked...

 

 

s3.jpg

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Doesn't look like sawtooth wear to me (different wear on alternating blocks on inside edge). Just look at the top of the photo I posted where you can see the tyre profile, the inner edge has something like 5mm of rubber missing on the entire edge -- it looked and felt like somebody had taken a grinding wheel to it and removed the rubber at an angle. And most of the steel cords too, but you can see a flattening out when it hits the cords, presumably because they're tougher to wear away than rubber. It's not clear from the photo but the leftmost 3 big grooves were all about equal depths (shadow makes the leftmost one look deeper), the fourth one is shallower because it's already on the worn inner edge.

 

Anyway it's booked in on Friday (VW leasing paying) and it's at the supplying dealer who I've had good dealings with, so I'll try and find out what they say.

 

BTW it's an L&K not a Sportline so doesn't have the lowered suspension...

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My leased from Motability Alhambra was in for a service today just before being returned.

Tyres only done 9,000 miles because it has had winter tyres / wheels fitted for the rest of the miles driven, and they had no wear.

Inside wear edge picked up on and advice from main dealership is to go to Kwikfit for new tyres.

Not for the an alignment check and adjustment because as has been the case for years they just fit new tyres.

(it will go back with what is fitted now and is not getting new tyres.)

DSCN1294.JPG

DSCN1299.JPG

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1 hour ago, IanJD said:

Doesn't look like sawtooth wear to me (different wear on alternating blocks on inside edge).

 

I think the issue here is that the blocks have completely gone so it isn't possible to see if there is alternating wear across the inner blocks. Sawtoothing does tend to result in a loud drone though, so if your tyre wear when unnoticed it could be something else.

 

Either way it is an alignment issue, so whatever the outcome it needs the alignment sorting when you get the new tyres. Good to hear it'll be at no cost to you.

 

It would be interesting to see the geometry before and after.

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New tyres are already on (done by ATS, but VW finance insist on alignment being done by a dealer). Didn't have any droning before the flat tyre, or any other symptom, in spite of regular checking from beside the car.

 

That's why I posted originally, this was a complete shock but at least it happened on my drive, it could happen to someone else while driving at speed and kill them -- so if you do have a Superb III, I strongly suggest you inspect the inner tyre edges (visually and by touch) just in case yours are doing the same.

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