On ‎05‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 08:12, Sad555 said:

IF ,big if electric vehicles were to take over how will the £28 billion from fuel duty be replaced (electric tax) and where will the quantity of electric and charging be found,I think it’s very early days for these vehicles at the moment.

 

I don't know how they'll replace the fuel duty directly. But I think this is an excellent substitute, possibly making more money for the treasury: Pollution tax

• Diesel £350 annual tax, plus existing fuel duty
• Petrol and old style hybrids £330 annual tax, plus existing fuel duty
• parallel PHEV (Golf GTE, 330e, C350e, up coming Superb PHEV, etc) £300 tax, plus existing fossil fuel duty
• serial REx PHEV (i3 REx, Ampera) with a good enough EV range (100+ miles?) £200 tax, plus existing fossil fuel duty
• 90+ kWh battery £180 tax
• 60-90 kWh battery £140 tax
• 40-60 kWh battery £100 tax
• sub 40 kWh battery zero tax

Because battery production is biggest pollutant of a battery EV.

 

Then, there's DC rapid charging tax akin to current fuel duty, rapid charging puts a strain on the grid, it is only needed when driving long distances. Rest of the time you should charge at destination AC charger (eg. at home, car park).  This way, you can choose to drive big battery car and charge over a long period, for example off peak overnight (not much demand on the grid), or you can choose to not pay tax for the car and gain tax-free commuting, but pay occasional rapid charging tax during long journey. 40kWh battery with Hyundai Ioniq consumption can go 140 miles between charges, good enough for occasional long distance driving.

 

I don't see any way home charging can be taxed. If the charger has tax added, people can always just use a domestic 3-pin socket. It's impossible to regulate and police. This charging method should also be the source for vast majority of your commute power source, with an EV, tax-free commute is pretty much guaranteed. (Labour ought to jump on this  )

 

This tax method also focuses manufacturers on efficiency. Hyundai did a great job with Ioniq, so did Tesla with Model 3. Jaguar IPace has horrendous consumption figures, its 90kWh battery can only slightly better than Tesla Model S 75kWh.

 

End of the day, simply buying the biggest battery car is not the answer.  For long distance driving, around 55 kWh Model 3 (just over 200 miles, 3 hours of solid motorway driving) is the sweet spot for current Tesla infrastructure. As public infrastructure improves, the requirement for ultra long range disappears.

That what I thought 

13 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

 

I don't know how they'll replace the fuel duty directly. But I think this is an excellent substitute, possibly making more money for the treasury: Pollution tax

• Diesel £350 annual tax, plus existing fuel duty
• Petrol and old style hybrids £330 annual tax, plus existing fuel duty
• parallel PHEV (Golf GTE, 330e, C350e, up coming Superb PHEV, etc) £300 tax, plus existing fossil fuel duty
• serial REx PHEV (i3 REx, Ampera) with a good enough EV range (100+ miles?) £200 tax, plus existing fossil fuel duty
• 90+ kWh battery £180 tax
• 60-90 kWh battery £140 tax
• 40-60 kWh battery £100 tax
• sub 40 kWh battery zero tax

Because battery production is biggest pollutant of a battery EV.

 

Then, there's DC rapid charging tax akin to current fuel duty, rapid charging puts a strain on the grid, it is only needed when driving long distances. Rest of the time you should charge at destination AC charger (eg. at home, car park).  This way, you can choose to drive big battery car and charge over a long period, for example off peak overnight (not much demand on the grid), or you can choose to not pay tax for the car and gain tax-free commuting, but pay occasional rapid charging tax during long journey. 40kWh battery with Hyundai Ioniq consumption can go 140 miles between charges, good enough for occasional long distance driving.

 

I don't see any way home charging can be taxed. If the charger has tax added, people can always just use a domestic 3-pin socket. It's impossible to regulate and police. This charging method should also be the source for vast majority of your commute power source, with an EV, tax-free commute is pretty much guaranteed. (Labour ought to jump on this  )

 

This tax method also focuses manufacturers on efficiency. Hyundai did a great job with Ioniq, so did Tesla with Model 3. Jaguar IPace has horrendous consumption figures, its 90kWh battery can only slightly better than Tesla Model S 75kWh.

 

End of the day, simply buying the biggest battery car is not the answer.  For long distance driving, around 55 kWh Model 3 (just over 200 miles, 3 hours of solid motorway driving) is the sweet spot for current Tesla infrastructure. As public infrastructure improves, the requirement for ultra long range disappears.

You sound like Jeremy Corbin, that's why he is still the leader of the opposition. If a chancellor came up with that proposal the Prime Minister would probably sack them. Real VOTE LOSER IMHO.

'Simples'.

 

Emission / Pollution Taxes can be dealt however, 

 

but get a 'Road Tax'  on Passenger Cars in the UK.   

By Length & Weight & number of Seats.   So how much room they take up on the road or parked. 

Just like Council Tax.

Big Houses cost more regardless of a single occupier.  so do the same on Cars, charge by size, and charge even if it never gets used much. Price of fuel / tax / duty covers miles usage.

Bigger cars cost more to build anyway because they use more materials, but then that is in the purchase price, well to some degree. 

1 hour ago, shyVRS245 said:

You sound like Jeremy Corbin, that's why he is still the leader of the opposition. If a chancellor came up with that proposal the Prime Minister would probably sack them. Real VOTE LOSER IMHO.

Not if you actually think about how much energy you need when you are buying your next car. Many people oversize their car for no good reason.

 

My 24kWh Leaf allows me to do my 60 miles commute. Taking ~40min each way. A 40kWh Ioniq would allow 130 miles commute, that would be 1 hour with zero traffic on motorway, could easily be 2 hours for most people during rush hour. You could do this 130 miles commute completely tax free with an efficient car. Vote winner for me :p

 

The real losers are those who buy oversized car/battery for no good reason, and those who drive a LOT of miles. But then, the increased tax pays for the road those high mileage driver have destroyed. Tax needs to be an exponential curve, more you drive, more you pay. Current tax system is linear unfortunately.

& All those cars sitting parked at roadsides and in free car parking or even on Free Charging places that do little miles and also pay very little VED or none.

Then those Taxi & Hire cars sitting with engines running to keep the driver or engine warmed up and raring to go.

Providing a service to the general public for a charge and a cost to those that never use cars in pollution where they might live of be passing.

 

Low Emission Zones and Congestion Charge Zones should not get mixed up.  Some supposed Low Emission Vehicles are not low emission in a zone if the engine is used and still add to congestion just as EV's add to Congestion in congested areas and streets.

Edited 6 November, 20187 yr by Offski

7 hours ago, wyx087 said:

End of the day, simply buying the biggest battery car is not the answer.  For long distance driving, around 55 kWh Model 3 (just over 200 miles, 3 hours of solid motorway driving) is the sweet spot for current Tesla infrastructure. As public infrastructure improves, the requirement for ultra long range disappears.

Until the public charging infrastructure improves those who live in remote and lightly populated areas will still need to buy the biggest battery EV they can to avoid range anxiety.

 

Long term I agree that better charging infrastructure is the answer, but we're not there yet it's still work in progress.

And in this weather keeping warm in an electric car is going to use up even more battery power = less distance?or can you fit a wood burning stove or would this be too polluting.

Those living in remote and lightly populated areas are in an ideal circumstance if local runs for local people and charging around and about or at home or work.

If traveling to populated areas they are never more than 80 miles from the remotest of a highland or lowland glen.

No place is more than 80 miles from the seaside or a City is it in the UK?

 

Electricity is mostly generated away from the highest of populated areas in the main. Power Stations, Nuclear Power Stations and Renewable Schemes not much being in Cities.

14 hours ago, Sad555 said:

And in this weather keeping warm in an electric car is going to use up even more battery power = less distance?or can you fit a wood burning stove or would this be too polluting.

To drive on motorway, it takes 10-20kW to maintain speed.

To keep warm, it takes 1-2kW in my first generation Nissan Leaf.

 

Oh no, 100 miles of range becomes 90 miles, it's totally unusable! 

 

Winter diesel and cold temperature lowers my Octavia from 550+ miles of range to less than 450 miles. No one seems to complain about that.

In winter I have to visit the pumps more often, whereas seasons doesn't affect my EV commute, because I just plug in overnight. Range is a non-issue because I always leave with full charge. I actually think about range on the ICE car MORE than EV because I have to plan detours to petrol stations.

10 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

To drive on motorway, it takes 10-20kW to maintain speed.

To keep warm, it takes 1-2kW in my first generation Nissan Leaf.

 

Oh no, 100 miles of range becomes 90 miles, it's totally unusable! 

 

Winter diesel and cold temperature lowers my Octavia from 550+ miles of range to less than 450 miles. No one seems to complain about that.

In winter I have to visit the pumps more often, whereas seasons doesn't affect my EV commute, because I just plug in overnight. Range is a non-issue because I always leave with full charge. I actually think about range on the ICE car MORE than EV because I have to plan detours to petrol stations.

Precisely.......no pollution (good) BUT as you say 450 miles range with the heater on as opposed to 90 miles range so stopping and charging up to 5x,and range is a non issue? thats a lot more planning to find charging points.

Edited 7 November, 20187 yr by Sad555

1 hour ago, Sad555 said:

Precisely.......no pollution (good) BUT as you say 450 miles range with the heater on as opposed to 90 miles range so stopping and charging up to 5x,and range is a non issue? thats a lot more planning to find charging points.

Not if you only drive 60 miles a day and charge up at night, always leave with a full charge. In this case, never need to think about range.

 

I agree, I wouldn't dream of taking a 90 miles EV out for long trips. I think 200 miles EV is the tipping point, that is 3 hours of solid motorway driving, I tend to take a break every 1.5-2 hours. 1.5 hours break means 90 miles is at its limits, but the chargers need to be exactly where I stop.

^^^ EV's are ideal for you then, but 1.5-2 hours driving and a break are just unrealistic. i did 300 miles last night to be where i am now and have 250 to do 

again later and am no place where a charging point is near and will not be later.

That is just how it can be sometimes, horses for courses, 650-700 miles between fill ups in nice, use the wipers, heater, radio the whole trip and get you and passengers where you want to go non stop.

 

Pity that you have to pay lots to buy or lease a TESLA and still not be able to do trips you want the same as you can with a diesel.

EV s are great for SOME if they dont need to adapt/compromise  to suit the vehicles limitations  but for me I want the flexibility of a petrol,unlimited miles and not having to remember to plug it in or find charging points and wait for an hour or so to charge up but in perhaps a decade or so this might change but so might a lot of things.

19 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

Until the public charging infrastructure improves those who live in remote and lightly populated areas will still need to buy the biggest battery EV they can to avoid range anxiety.

 

Long term I agree that better charging infrastructure is the answer, but we're not there yet it's still work in progress.

well north devon is a bit of a charging desert

Ye so poor,  no economy, nobody interested in EV,s.   Just tractor drivers down at the holiday homes,  and retired millionaires. 

We're a two car household..... my Octavia and an 06 C-Max 1.6 petrol which my wife uses..... I say "uses" it's done less than 3K miles between MOTs and gets low 20s MPG.

 

For me, it's a bit of a no brainer that when it needs replacing (perhaps in a year or so) we're going to go for something smaller (won't need prams/pushchairs etc) and electric, perhaps a Zoe or something similar.

 

Most of my wife's trips are 2-3 miles, with the occasional 15 mile round trip to her Mum's.  The way I see it range anxiety shouldn't even come into it.

 

OK, you could easily argue she doesn't *need* a car but the bending of the ear I'd get on wet school runs means I *need* us to have 2 cars 

5 minutes ago, Russ77 said:

We're a two car household..... my Octavia and an 06 C-Max 1.6 petrol which my wife uses..... I say "uses" it's done less than 3K miles between MOTs and gets low 20s MPG.

 

For me, it's a bit of a no brainer that when it needs replacing (perhaps in a year or so) we're going to go for something smaller (won't need prams/pushchairs etc) and electric, perhaps a Zoe or something similar.

 

Most of my wife's trips are 2-3 miles, with the occasional 15 mile round trip to her Mum's.  The way I see it range anxiety shouldn't even come into it.

 

OK, you could easily argue she doesn't *need* a car but the bending of the ear I'd get on wet school runs means I *need* us to have 2 cars 

 

At £49+ per month leasing cost just for the battery, you might want to reconsider.

https://www.renault.co.uk/renault-finance/battery-hire.html

 

@Russ77 If you / she were in Scotland the government lend £6,000 interest free for an electric cargo bike or £3000 for an E-bike.   I did 300 miles between MOT,s in my jimny but over 2,000 miles on the electric bike.     PS,  used EV,s are as cheap as chips,  ones with batteries thar do not need renting,  just as cars can be bought with petrol or dealer and not rented.

Edited 7 November, 20187 yr by Offski

3 minutes ago, xman said:

 

At £49+ per month leasing cost just for the battery, you might want to reconsider.

https://www.renault.co.uk/renault-finance/battery-hire.html

 

Yes, a colleague of mine has one and told me about this, hence why I said a Zoe or something similar as £49 per month is WAY more than the cost of putting petrol into her current car so would have to seriously work out the overall costs with that factored in.

1 minute ago, Offski said:

@Russ77 If you / she were in Scotland the government lend £6,000 interest free for an electric cargo bike or £3000 for an E-bike.   I did 300 miles between MOT,s in my jimny but over 2,000 miles on the electric bike.

I'm not sure my 2 & 4 year olds would fit on a bike 

Have a look my Grandchildren in Norway do.  And plenty around Cities are on Cargo bikes or E-bikes with trailers.   car is cheaper though...

 

You still get those worrying about range.

 

 

  

Edited 7 November, 20187 yr by Offski

4 minutes ago, Russ77 said:

Yes, a colleague of mine has one and told me about this, hence why I said a Zoe or something similar as £49 per month is WAY more than the cost of putting petrol into her current car so would have to seriously work out the overall costs with that factored in.

 

And I've just read that said colleague who lives in the next street around 50m from me had his house broken into and one of his cars stolen last night!!!!

 

No... it wasn't me if it was the Zoe!

EV's & another positive, do they get stolen, do people carry much in them...

and like Skoda's do thieves get put off robbing the home as know that not likely much to take in there,.

35 minutes ago, xman said:

 

At £49+ per month leasing cost just for the battery, you might want to reconsider.

https://www.renault.co.uk/renault-finance/battery-hire.html

 

Buy Renault Zoe "i" editions and there's no battery rental.

 

But not a lot of them about for second hand market, which is why we turned to Nissan Leaf instead, oodles of choice