Some are still fighting for the ICE -

https://www.autonews.com/future-product/ex-porsche-ceo-tries-save-combustion-engine-scrap-heap

http://patents.justia.com/inventor/volker-gallatz

 

 

 

Amazing these ex heads of manufacturers who were and still are 'engineers' like Wendelin Wiedeking that were deaf dumb and blind to cheating that lowly employees were involved in.   Qatar will always be backing anything that needs fossil fuels to run.

http://thelocal.de/20090723/20775

 

 

 

 

Edited 14 December, 20187 yr by Offski

Hang in there George -

https://europe.autonews.com/suppliers/ex-porsche-ceo-wiedeking-backs-effort-delay-death-combustion-engine

VW can do so much right,

just a pity they can not just sort out their sh!t and make everything 'as reliable as a Golf.'

Or make the various Golf and others reliable. Then the Skoda, SEAT & Audi models as well.  Less spin and new tech when they can not get the basics right.

Or service schedules and guidelines, and the knowledge at dealerships with Service Desk staff and fitters or techs.

 

 

Totally unachievable and a hell of a long way off yet and as we have witnessed recently in politics, being peddled by completely incompetent selfish clueless buffoons. The charging structure required is one of the biggest currently unachievable projects on the horizon. The current pathetic attempt is a joke. The cabling right to your house is just unsuitable end off, unless your prepared to wait hours and hours and hours for it to charge. The local sub station is far too small, there's 100s  thousands of those. Plus, while it is charging you will get melt down if you turn on many other consumers like electric showers or immersion heaters, Electric CH or even kettles on. And what about the many millions using on street parking, like 99% of London, what are they going to do? Or Garage blocks without power, and someone will have to pay? These people just do not understand the first thing about electricity, it's blatantly obvious, embarrassing and scary. Colossal difference between a couple of Nissan Leafs running around (with lights off in dark around here, and thick coats on!) to 20 million ! 

 

Thats if the grid capacity could supply the power to charge 20 million electric cars, which it cannot by a long long distance. Then there's the fact well over half of our electricity is generated by natural gas, which is a very dirty fuel, about 2/3 as dirty as coal, conveniently keep that quiet don't they  As I write this the electricity generating  capacity of the UK is pretty much at full output, with a little gas and coal capacity left.. Little  wind with no solar available !  23 GW gas, 4 GW Coal, 7 GW Nuclear, 4 GW wind, 1GW solar and the rest almost nil. So today gas is producing much more CO2 than Coal. From electricity we are one of the highest CO2 producing countries in western Europe and that electricity is powering the Leaf's!   Just load the "Electricity Map" app for live info. It's an eye opener. Where is the extra 20 million times 6 - 20 kw going to come from, whats that, about another 100 massive power stations or as much more again as we already have, can't even get "1" built 

 

Then there are HGVs, Ambulances, Fire Engines, Police cars all needing to use full power regularly, go flat half way to the incident? Even Taxi's ? Electric car range is a fraction of claimed at full throttle. The racing cars last about 40 mins and they are at the leading edge of the technology plus weigh a hell of a lot less.. 

 

The business to invest in will be breakdown/recovery, with rapid charge (on board big Diesel !! generators)  it is going to go mega! Electric cars all over the place with flat batteries, the idea sounds ok ish, the implementation is pathetic and currently unachievable without trillions being spent and massive upheaval.  And who is going to pay for that? Then there's the replacement for the fuel duty, that will be interesting as the only obvious route is massive road tax, tolls or probably at least as well as, huge electricity cost increases. Just look at Diesel costs now, they sell a bit less so immediately whack the price up to compensate while we being 21st century British and Foreign and not French just sit back and let them.  So need to make the infrastructure  viable first, they've not even started with that, can't even get one massively dangerous Nuclear Power station built, let alone the cabling and infrastructure to your house. 

 

I suspect the future will be a mix of technologies, Hydrogen, Electric and new clean IC engines. Only political buffoons lay down idiotic timeliness for purely political reasons, like every breath they take. You need to target the the biggest problems. If only they hadn't ripped up most of the railway lines like utter idiots, we would have had the infrastructure to get the biggest problem sorted, HGV's. 

 

 

35 minutes ago, teescom09 said:

Totally unachievable and a hell of a long way off yet and as we have witnessed recently in politics, being peddled by completely incompetent selfish clueless buffoons. The charging structure required is one of the biggest currently unachievable projects on the horizon. The current pathetic attempt is a joke. The cabling right to your house is just unsuitable end off, unless your prepared to wait hours and hours and hours for it to charge. The local sub station is far too small, there's 100s  thousands of those. Plus, while it is charging you will get melt down if you turn on many other consumers like electric showers or immersion heaters, Electric CH or even kettles on. And what about the many millions using on street parking, like 99% of London, what are they going to do? Or Garage blocks without power, and someone will have to pay? These people just do not understand the first thing about electricity, it's blatantly obvious, embarrassing and scary. Colossal difference between a couple of Nissan Leafs running around (with lights off in dark around here, and thick coats on!) to 20 million ! 

 

Thats if the grid capacity could supply the power to charge 20 million electric cars, which it cannot by a long long distance. Then there's the fact well over half of our electricity is generated by natural gas, which is a very dirty fuel, about 2/3 as dirty as coal, conveniently keep that quiet don't they  As I write this the electricity generating  capacity of the UK is pretty much at full output, with a little gas and coal capacity left.. Little  wind with no solar available !  23 GW gas, 4 GW Coal, 7 GW Nuclear, 4 GW wind, 1GW solar and the rest almost nil. So today gas is producing much more CO2 than Coal. From electricity we are one of the highest CO2 producing countries in western Europe and that electricity is powering the Leaf's!   Just load the "Electricity Map" app for live info. It's an eye opener. Where is the extra 20 million times 6 - 20 kw going to come from, whats that, about another 100 massive power stations or as much more again as we already have, can't even get "1" built 

 

Then there are HGVs, Ambulances, Fire Engines, Police cars all needing to use full power regularly, go flat half way to the incident? Even Taxi's ? Electric car range is a fraction of claimed at full throttle. The racing cars last about 40 mins and they are at the leading edge of the technology plus weigh a hell of a lot less.. 

 

The business to invest in will be breakdown/recovery, with rapid charge (on board big Diesel !! generators)  it is going to go mega! Electric cars all over the place with flat batteries, the idea sounds ok ish, the implementation is pathetic and currently unachievable without trillions being spent and massive upheaval.  And who is going to pay for that? Then there's the replacement for the fuel duty, that will be interesting as the only obvious route is massive road tax, tolls or probably at least as well as, huge electricity cost increases. Just look at Diesel costs now, they sell a bit less so immediately whack the price up to compensate while we being 21st century British and Foreign and not French just sit back and let them.  So need to make the infrastructure  viable first, they've not even started with that, can't even get one massively dangerous Nuclear Power station built, let alone the cabling and infrastructure to your house. 

 

I suspect the future will be a mix of technologies, Hydrogen, Electric and new clean IC engines. Only political buffoons lay down idiotic timeliness for purely political reasons, like every breath they take. You need to target the the biggest problems. If only they hadn't ripped up most of the railway lines like utter idiots, we would have had the infrastructure to get the biggest problem sorted, HGV's. 

 

 

What ?

 

The home charger is a 7 kWh charger the same, or less powerful than many showers, and easily powers up most EVs overnight with all the charge they need during the "quiet" electrical generation time.   Chargers away from ones home are usually with thousands of 7 and  22 kWh chargers to add charge when one is parked up a public car park, supermarket, or street location.  The action has to be taken to deal with the massive death toll that diesel vehicles are causing in the big cities.   Source London is a subsidiary of the Group I work for and they have the £100M contract to roll out this in London to help reduce the death toll on citizen including vunerables such as children.   https://www.sourcelondon.net/project 

 

Chargers can and do use lamposts.  Lots of info on the Zap website of.  Home chargers will be even smarter in 2019 to help them use the Grid more efficiently ie as long as I get my 41 kWh of charge by the time I want to leave in the morning I do not need to get 10 kWh before midnight if I can the say 30 kWh I need between MDT and 0600 hours.  

 

It is coming, even the oil companies and vehicle manufacturers know it.  VAG have been slow and Nissan-Renault, and Tesla, have led the way.  It is a very cheap way  to motor https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/#location if one gets the home charging at a good price ie a few pence per kwH and one can rejoice that one is one murdering ones fellow citizens.  I do not drive my ICE cars in cities and if I have to go into central London I use the more efficient train and look forward to the day when EVs are workable for high milers like me.  Very impressed with my 1.4 TSI 7 speed DSG which seems to do 60 mpg with ease and is good on those nasty NOX and PMs and pretty good on CO2 too but will be glad when ICEs are consigned to the history books.  It could be much closer with more government support rather than the cities doing much of the progressing.  Birmingham and forty other cities to follow London in charging those diesels with SCR etc ie more than a couple of years old which will help air quality considerably if companies then adopt EV cars and vans.      

 

Pretty much everything you say is very questionable, impractical and frankly highlights this cloud cuckoo land proposal. 

 

A Shower is used for  few minutes a day not 12 hours! And it pretty much takes up most of the capacity of many homes. Add your 7 kw charger and a few more things and pop! Most  houses probably currently average around 200- 400 watts per hour and they’re proposing another minimum 7000 on top of that!  The local mains transformer isn’t rated to supply houses with constant full load. That's even if the infrastructure could handle It, which it cannot. Cable joints will burn, old cables will fail and the local transformers will fail or rather couldn’t do it in any case, would need  replacing with much larger items. Then the cable to them will be too small, oh it just goes on and on, especially obvious when you’ve delt with small scale similar situations all your life. 

 

7kw x 20 million + is a  phenomenal amount of power, massively and more above any demand of the past. and that cannot be changed. The nights will not be low energy hours they will be the massive new peak, more than double the national current day peak. Plus no solar which isn’t stored. Primarily from  a poluting dirty source. Lamp posts  have a 3kw max, many lower supply often on 1.5mm or 2.5mm armoured cable with a 6 or 16 amp trip, and 100 m apart or not at all. And they are daisy chained,  so that's nonsense. The cabling just couldn’t handle it. 

 

And the whole generating infrastructure is no where near capable. It was never designed for any where near such demands. Majority of houses with a minimum 7kw demand for 12 hours, come off it. We’re not talking a few leafs here, we’re talking many millions, I suggested 20 million but realistically a lot more is likely in the future. Weve also gone from 50 million to 66 million people in my lifetime ! 

 

And what about the source of your dirty electricity, doesn’t it also kill like you like you claim? Dirty fossil fuel Gas the only real solution? 

 

The end result will be litttle different. Unless you can find people to build and pay for dozens of nuclear power stations and  country wide infrastructure, all next door to you thanks very much.  

 

We need to concentrate on cleaning up IC engines , not too big an ask to  match dirty gas sourced electricity.  Be far more more achievable. Otherwise Hydrogen, certainly not mass electricity.  

Another point. Does anyone actually believe electric car running costs will stay low? If you can call them low, Carwow calculated the leaf to similar costs as a 1.5 diesel overall in the real world.

 

60 pence per litre of duty has to go on electric cars at sometime, so about 60p per 8-10 miles driven?  That is a certainty. Probably  proportionately introduced as take up increases. The result is obviously a hell of a lot more to run than ice vehicle. We will be ripped off, rest assured if this. 

 

Anyone that remotely thinks the full fuel duty won’t be transferred to electric has obviously just arrived. 

 

 

There’s so many things to put against this nonsense.

 

I forgot to mention most homes have 2 or 3 cars. Two will bring the vast majority of homes to absolute max and unable to turn anything else on, even if the infrastructure could miraculously manage it, three is impossible.  

England & Wales and the UK Government do need to get their act together.  The Infrastructure for Utilities like Electricity , gas, water / sewage is pathetic.

 

Scotland is getting pretty sorted on renewables & generation of electricity and just needs more storage facilities and transmission to the market like England.

Pity about The National Grid and the Westminster Government being so slow at getting anything organised.

Never slow wasting billions dithering though.

 

 

 

Edited 17 December, 20187 yr by Skoffski

PS

Seen a good few EV's just this past days in the Heavy Rain and Heavy Freezing rain sitting there with stupid flaps open with charger plugged in.

Surely the designers are going to sort that nonsense with sealing from the extremes of weather (H20) sliding doors giving access and closing on the device.

 

Best not have a Skoda Design Engineer involved in these necessary parts given their past record with Fuel Filler flaps and cold weather environments.

Edited 17 December, 20187 yr by Skoffski

What about 3 phase 415 volt  cables lying across the ground inevitably eventually getting damaged just waiting to kill instantly! It will hapoen. And what is the legal stance of H&E regarding the testing and maintenance of such potentially lethal devices. If it were in a workplace it would be strictly controlled, maintained and tested along with nobody but a competent Electrician been allowed to touch it. Thist us turning Electrical regulation into a farce. I bet it will change dramatically after a few desths. You can’t have Joe public messing about with 3 phase 415 volt unsupervised or regulated. An absolute sham.  

Or single phase 240volt either with cables lying around in public places as I have seen in council car parks, unbelievable. 

Edited 17 December, 20187 yr by teescom09

One of the reasons electric is being pushed, especially for urban use, is to reduce emission of criterion pollutants in built up areas. In a large fixed installation like a powerplant it's very easy to scrub NOx, SOx, HC, PM, etc from the exhaust and leave only CO2 and water going out the stack.

 

Whether it will realise a drop in CO2 per kilometre driven is harder to call. A powerplant will be a lot more efficient at using the fuel to generate power, but there are much greater losses between generation and point of use compared to ICE.

 

I suspect BEV will be at best a short-medium term solution, being replaced by hydrogen fuel cell, probably with hydrogen generation at or near point of use, supplanted by central stocks as needed. I can also see private car use being curtailed, especially in cities, but that won't happen unless governments are willing to take a hit financially to subsidise decent public transport (carrot) while they're applying financial deterrents to private car use (stick).

18 minutes ago, chimaera said:

One of the reasons electric is being pushed, especially for urban use, is to reduce emission of criterion pollutants in built up areas. In a large fixed installation like a powerplant it's very easy to scrub NOx, SOx, HC, PM, etc from the exhaust and leave only CO2 and water going out the stack.

 

Whether it will realise a drop in CO2 per kilometre driven is harder to call. A powerplant will be a lot more efficient at using the fuel to generate power, but there are much greater losses between generation and point of use compared to ICE.

 

I suspect BEV will be at best a short-medium term solution, being replaced by hydrogen fuel cell, probably with hydrogen generation at or near point of use, supplanted by central stocks as needed. I can also see private car use being curtailed, especially in cities, but that won't happen unless governments are willing to take a hit financially to subsidise decent public transport (carrot) while they're applying financial deterrents to private car use (stick).

Yes pretty much agree with that. Coal could be the fuel of the future if they implement carbon capture to the process to clean the emissions, not that much different to gas. But unfortunately that would mean having Miners and we all know the Tories would never under any circumstances agree to that, the return of their enemy. As it stands our Electricity generating CO2 emissions are bad, mainly from gas and topped up with coal, that is what your Leaf and Tesla are running on, not thin air. That crap being put into the atmosphere is in someone else's back yard so it doesn't bother the toffs. 

 

Cannot see cars being pushed out, the economy is absolutely dependent on them and probably always will be. The revenue from them now which will 100% +  be applied to the electric cars is dominant. 

 

 

1 hour ago, teescom09 said:

Or single phase 240volt either with cables lying around in public places as I have seen in council car parks, unbelievable. 

The electric car argument is interesting in many ways. not least that It's ok for city folk to throw all of their vehicle pollution at us in the country near the power stations. You chose to be in a city, keep you manky pollution to yourselves   

?

Not that complicated really,

England or parts of it are just over populated and lacking resources and the sense to get on with things. 

Frack your Oil & Gas, open your Open Cast mining, do your carbon capturing and get on with it, or just ban cars in your cities, and use the public transport the other UK nations pay you to have.

Plenty going into offshore wind around the bottom half of the UK now, use the electricity it generates.

Decades of building houses in England and Billions always being spent on Grants and help on insulating the poorly built crap.

Get the goods more on rail and have people able to live near where they work and shift those with no work in a city out of cities and let those that need to be there get in.

Not ethnic cleansing just get those without work out of the cities regardless of where they were born. 

Londoners have no need to hang about London just to collect benefits.

 

Less than 6 million people in Scotland and that is less than the population of London.

Not enough berry pickers available or those prepared to be low  paid workers, surely there needs to be more that want out of the polluted cities to get back to the land and be hard working families again.

(Spend 1/3 or more of their household income just paying for energy for their homes and vehicles.... while those with Electric Vehicles get grants to buy them and free charging.)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 December, 20187 yr by Skoffski

1 hour ago, teescom09 said:

The electric car argument is interesting in many ways. not least that It's ok for city folk to throw all of their vehicle pollution at us in the country near the power stations. You chose to be in a city, keep you manky pollution to yourselves   

My point is that it's easy to neutralise pollutants in a large scale fixed installation like a power plant compared to a vehicle which requires any pollution mitigation technology to be small and cheap.

 

A well run gas fired plant supplying power to charge EVs will really only emit CO2, while the same number of ICE cars will have CO2 plus a bunch of criterion emissions because no-one has come up with a solution yet to deal with them fully at vehicle scale.

8 hours ago, teescom09 said:

Totally unachievable and a hell of a long way off yet and as we have witnessed recently in politics, being peddled by completely incompetent selfish clueless buffoons. The charging structure required is one of the biggest currently unachievable projects on the horizon. The current pathetic attempt is a joke. The cabling right to your house is just unsuitable end off, unless your prepared to wait hours and hours and hours for it to charge. The local sub station is far too small, there's 100s  thousands of those. Plus, while it is charging you will get melt down if you turn on many other consumers like electric showers or immersion heaters, Electric CH or even kettles on. And what about the many millions using on street parking, like 99% of London, what are they going to do? Or Garage blocks without power, and someone will have to pay? These people just do not understand the first thing about electricity, it's blatantly obvious, embarrassing and scary. Colossal difference between a couple of Nissan Leafs running around (with lights off in dark around here, and thick coats on!) to 20 million ! 

 

Thats if the grid capacity could supply the power to charge 20 million electric cars, which it cannot by a long long distance. Then there's the fact well over half of our electricity is generated by natural gas, which is a very dirty fuel, about 2/3 as dirty as coal, conveniently keep that quiet don't they  As I write this the electricity generating  capacity of the UK is pretty much at full output, with a little gas and coal capacity left.. Little  wind with no solar available !  23 GW gas, 4 GW Coal, 7 GW Nuclear, 4 GW wind, 1GW solar and the rest almost nil. So today gas is producing much more CO2 than Coal. From electricity we are one of the highest CO2 producing countries in western Europe and that electricity is powering the Leaf's!   Just load the "Electricity Map" app for live info. It's an eye opener. Where is the extra 20 million times 6 - 20 kw going to come from, whats that, about another 100 massive power stations or as much more again as we already have, can't even get "1" built 

 

Then there are HGVs, Ambulances, Fire Engines, Police cars all needing to use full power regularly, go flat half way to the incident? Even Taxi's ? Electric car range is a fraction of claimed at full throttle. The racing cars last about 40 mins and they are at the leading edge of the technology plus weigh a hell of a lot less.. 

 

The business to invest in will be breakdown/recovery, with rapid charge (on board big Diesel !! generators)  it is going to go mega! Electric cars all over the place with flat batteries, the idea sounds ok ish, the implementation is pathetic and currently unachievable without trillions being spent and massive upheaval.  And who is going to pay for that? Then there's the replacement for the fuel duty, that will be interesting as the only obvious route is massive road tax, tolls or probably at least as well as, huge electricity cost increases. Just look at Diesel costs now, they sell a bit less so immediately whack the price up to compensate while we being 21st century British and Foreign and not French just sit back and let them.  So need to make the infrastructure  viable first, they've not even started with that, can't even get one massively dangerous Nuclear Power station built, let alone the cabling and infrastructure to your house. 

 

I suspect the future will be a mix of technologies, Hydrogen, Electric and new clean IC engines. Only political buffoons lay down idiotic timeliness for purely political reasons, like every breath they take. You need to target the the biggest problems. If only they hadn't ripped up most of the railway lines like utter idiots, we would have had the infrastructure to get the biggest problem sorted, HGV's. 

 

 

A bit long winded but for once I totally agree with almost of the above.

1 hour ago, Skoffski said:

?

Not that complicated really,

England or parts of it are just over populated and lacking resources and the sense to get on with things. 

Frack your Oil & Gas, open your Open Cast mining, do your carbon capturing and get on with it, or just ban cars in your cities, and use the public transport the other UK nations pay you to have.

Plenty going into offshore wind around the bottom half of the UK now, use the electricity it generates.

Decades of building houses in England and Billions always being spent on Grants and help on insulating the poorly built crap.

Get the goods more on rail and have people able to live near where they work and shift those with no work in a city out of cities and let those that need to be there get in.

Not ethnic cleansing just get those without work out of the cities regardless of where they were born. 

Londoners have no need to hang about London just to collect benefits.

 

Less than 6 million people in Scotland and that is less than the population of London.

Not enough berry pickers available or those prepared to be low  paid workers, surely there needs to be more that want out of the polluted cities to get back to the land and be hard working families again.

(Spend 1/3 or more of their household income just paying for energy for their homes and vehicles.... while those with Electric Vehicles get grants to buy them and free charging.)

 

 

 

 

 

Because no-one wants to live there. Plenty of space to erect wind turbines without upsetting the (non existent) locals.

Ever thought of moving to an english speaking, sunny climate country which seems to muddle through most downturns.

Our annual energy bill in our 30 square house is <£100 and I’m trying to think of a way I can be charged for my own electric power generation.

I don’t need more than 500km range for our second car.

Early days and things happen.

 

 

 

sorry, silly me ,   I forgot to mention voting is compulsory..............it’s the dictatorship thing.

Edited 17 December, 20187 yr by Ryeman

@shyVRS245

Funnily the demand for homes outstrips supply and they can not just build more, and then travelling to and from there and moving goods and vehicles by sea if it is the islands is rather expensive. 

Edited 17 December, 20187 yr by Skoffski

9 hours ago, teescom09 said:

Thats if the grid capacity could supply the power to charge 20 million electric cars, which it cannot by a long long distance. Then there's the fact well over half of our electricity is generated by natural gas, which is a very dirty fuel, about 2/3 as dirty as coal, conveniently keep that quiet don't they  As I write this the electricity generating  capacity of the UK is pretty much at full output, with a little gas and coal capacity left.. Little  wind with no solar available !  23 GW gas, 4 GW Coal, 7 GW Nuclear, 4 GW wind, 1GW solar and the rest almost nil. So today gas is producing much more CO2 than Coal. From electricity we are one of the highest CO2 producing countries in western Europe and that electricity is powering the Leaf's!   Just load the "Electricity Map" app for live info. It's an eye opener. Where is the extra 20 million times 6 - 20 kw going to come from, whats that, about another 100 massive power stations or as much more again as we already have, can't even get "1" built 

 

 

 

Hopefully we have a bad winter and a few ageing nukes fall over and we end up in the dark, that will show 'em 

 

 

 

 

Honestly if you read the massively contradictory claims on the estimated required capacity it sums up this sham, usually from totally unqualified journalists. From needing no more power to an extra 60 GW, 20 more new Nukes!  They claim there will be 35 million EV's by 2050 if we go all electric. Which I am sure we won't, well not grid powered anyway. People just can't do simple maths. Lets say only 10 million of them decide to charge up together on a night. thats 10,000,000 x 7000 watts required. Think that is 70 GW, similar to current max capacity, without anyone else using a watt! Fact is 20 or 30 million could easily plug in at once, thats 210 GW plus normal demand of 40-60 GW. Thats now, with another 10 - 15 million immigrants in the country it will be far higher.  a possibility of an instant  demand of over 4 times the current capacity, assuming they miraculously can get that power to you. And how much natural gas CO2 and other harmful emissions  is that thrown at the people around the power stations ? 

 

If you study grid demand, it doesn't drop very much on a night, from about 40 GW to 30GW and up to 20 higher during peaks. 

 

The only obvious way is every house has the maximum of solar powers fitted + a wind turbine and massive battery storage with a huge UPS and take the bulk of the charge from this. It won't happen as nobody will pay for it. 

^^^ Have you got the cost to every person in the UK or household of not meeting the lower emissions that a UK Government signed up to?

Have you got the cost of cleaning up the redundant nuclear plants and those about to be decommissioned?

The cost of the abandoned mines just waiting to actually have attempts at cleaning up prevention of future pollution?

 

The generations now are paying for mistakes of the past and will pay for generations to come.

Just the cost to the NHS and the economy of the health issues from polluted air is serious.

 

If you study anything you will see that those that grew wealthy on the damage they did to the environment are not having to pay jack sh!t towards the cleaning up of it.

Actually many that did it get made a Peer of the Realm and are blocking progress as they still have money invested in the dirty ways.

 

 

 

Edited 17 December, 20187 yr by Skoffski