ARB bush clonk issue. Newish bushes

[bmbmdmb]

3 minutes ago, rum4mo said:

Well, from memory, back in 2007 when I got a very good VW Group Indie to fit Cupra solid rear bushes to my wife's 2002 Polo, they fitted one one way and the other the other way, so I got back to them and supplied a new bush to get fitted in what I thought was the correct way, which is flushed/flat ends to the rear of the car - and that looked better and worked okay for many years - that car was sold on  in August 2015. The design looks like in both cases that the recess is only there to allow the TCA peg and the transition from that into the box section of the TCA to fit into the position correctly.

Thanks!

 

 

Just found your original post I previously read. 

Orientation of console bush - looking at old one, it is flush to rear and recessed at front also.

 

And I did double/triple check this point at Darkside.

 

You saved me Rum4

[rum4mo]

28 minutes ago, bmbmdmb said:

Is this in the inner tie rod tampered joint? I'm changing them both at mo, as I've splashed out on tools. All good fun. The inner tie rod threads were starting to corrode anyhow. Both sides cost £30 so not major outlay.

 

Part number for inner tie rod is BTR5646. Borg and Beck. One side is now fitted and is same size in all dimensions.

 

Yes, also I found at least with the 2002 Polo, the inner knuckle size/dia had changed as had the diameter of the steering rods, that was why I needed to buy 2 of these "toilet plunger" tools, the first one fitted the new rods fine, but when I went to remove the original knuckle it was too big so could not close down and grip the original smaller knuckle! Also I needed to use a couple of cable ties on the small outer end of the bellows due to the new rod being a slightly bigger diameter. Now with this newer car, the late 2009 Ibiza, the steering rod knuckles old and new were the same size as was the diameter of the rod and so the constant tension clips for the bellows small end could be reused.

Edited 19 April, 2019 by rum4mo

[bmbmdmb]

38 minutes ago, rum4mo said:

buy 2 of these "toilet plunger" tools

Yep, I bought both just in case. The large toilet plunger tool I used was 35to45mm diameter one.

 

Inserting new Cupra bush. I have just realised the bush kit I have will not fit at rear of the console bush. Other folk have dropped subframe.

 

I've seen this for sale £28 and Neilsen brand on eba..

Neilsen VAG Front Suspension Bush Tool CT3517 

 

A vag insertion tool that has smaller 'cup' at rear of console bush. Will this be useful in future I wonder, for other cars?

Delivery is now Wednesday. I'm not in rush to get car back on road though.

I guess I could paint bits of car etc whilst it's garaged...

Is this the correct tool for the job?

Thanks

Edited 19 April, 2019 by bmbmdmb

[rum4mo]

Well just consider this, if you do fit Cupra bushes, that tool will only ever get used once for each side, looking ahead, your next car even if you stick with VW Group small car sector, should not have that specific design of front wishbone rear mounting bush - VW Group went back to a previous design, probably for a good reason - and that bush which can also fail, needs a different tool.

 

Though, when I was originally thinking about replacing these bushes myself in my wife's old 2002 Polo, I was quite willing to spend good money on buying a tool that I would only use once and that using it would make it more probable that I would have completed that job properly and in good time.  At that time, there was an individual who had designed and was getting manufactured in small volumes and so high price, that type of tool a long time before Laser Tools and Neilsen etc had brought one to the DIYer market place - but I dithered and by that time that guy had either stopped making and selling them, or his design had been taken up by Laser Tools etc and not yet placed in the market place, so that drove me to take that car to a proper VW Group Indie for that job.

 

Edit:- it does sound like being the correct tool, have you ever considered going onto the Neilsen Tools website, I'd expect that they have one and that might hand out a bit more info on which cars that tool is used for?

Edited 19 April, 2019 by rum4mo

[bmbmdmb]

38 minutes ago, rum4mo said:

VW Group went back to a previous design,

I checked my Skoda Octavia 3 and yes, it has a different design. I was about to drill a steel plate and cut down some threaded bar but realised my drill bits don't go above 8mm and drilling through 3mm steel plate was taking a while.

 

In short, I bought the tool.

 

I had a Google but only found videos with similar tooling. Looks the right one. Thanks.

 

On plus side I can get on with some gardening and enjoy lovely weather.

[TMB]

4 hours ago, bmbmdmb said:

Front wishbone bush. Centre tube is metal surrounded by just rubber with a lip over wishbone at both ends. This is the bush that doesn't wear out. Lots of wd40 and gt85 helped get it out.

 

 

 

 

[TMB]

5 hours ago, rum4mo said:

Going back to refitting the steering rack bellows on the LHS ie NS of the car, that rubber sealing sleeve really really annoyed me as it kept sneaking out and so the plastic bellows could not be tightened....

 

Just noticed that the rubber ring has sneaked out of mine as well....

 

Edited 19 April, 2019 by TMB

[bmbmdmb]

6 hours ago, TMB said:

rubber ring

If you want to seat it correctly, use some silicone grease, which won't rot the rubber, to help hold the rubber in place as you tighten the jubilee once more.

 

On the subject of bushes, I was looking at the engine mount bushes, of which the Fabia has 3. I only knew about the lower engine mount/dog bone mount. Apparently, there is also a bush or 2 on the steering rack. Probably part of steering rack and not need changing.

[TMB]

35 minutes ago, bmbmdmb said:

If you want to seat it correctly, use some silicone grease, which won't rot the rubber, to help hold the rubber in place as you tighten the jubilee once more.

 

 

 

Yeah, I'll have a look at it.

[rum4mo]

I used silicone grease on the Ibiza, but I reckoned that any that got under the sealing ring would have helped it move across even more, so as silicone had got onto the bore of the rack, inside and outside the flat seal, and where I thought it would have helped stop this, ie applied around the inside of the bellows, I just gave up with it and, pulled the bellows back off the rack, got the flat seal where it needed to be, ie just beyond the lip on the rack, then fitted a cable tie just beyond that to stop it moving along the bore when I pushed the bellows back on, that worked very well, and after tightening the heavy duty cable tie over the plastic bellows, I cut the other cable tie off.

[bmbmdmb]

Reading earlier fitting guides for the Cupra bushes I could not find any info on the orientation of the bush, particularly the hexagonal hole. I took photos of both voided bushes before disassembly. They don't look the same, oddly. On voided rear console bush I found a febi bilistein video showing the voids above and below , vertical, and left and right, horizontal.

Does the bottom and top sides of the hex hole in bush need to be angled down slightly towards the wheel?

 

Photo driver's side looking from front towards rear of car. This looks ok to me 

 

[sepulchrave]

There's a little arrow on the Cupra bushes that's supposed to point straight up.

 

Simples.

[bmbmdmb]

Left / nearside / passenger side of car. Again image looking towards rear of car. This looks wrong to me.   Although it might have rotated, as it was the knackered bush.

 

 

[bmbmdmb]

Thanks! 

[bmbmdmb]

On 23/04/2019 at 11:48, sepulchrave said:

little arrow on the Cupra bushes

This one? Looks like a triangle. 

There are 4 circles which if they represented 12 , 3, 6, and 9 o'clock would make sense orientation wise for either side. Thanks

 

[sepulchrave]

Yes triangle, it doesn't actually matter that much because there are no voids but it helps when pushing the hex on the wishbone pivot back into it after fitting.

[bmbmdmb]

I got through to Darkside. After some checking they said to install with 2 flats of the hex (top and bottom) parallel to horizontal. 

 

This is contrary to the triangle up. But not far off.

 

As the bush is solid if the hex is installed in horizontal position and wishbone inserted, will the wishbone when pressed down at ball joint ended want to move without much resistance? The voids in old design allowed twisting to some degree.

 

I think the triangle you mentioned being at 6oclock is best suggestion but different advice to my supplier.

Thanks

[sepulchrave]

That's how I installed them and it all worked out just fine. Like I said it really doesn't matter once the wishbone is actually installed, it can move easily irrespective of orientation.

 

Edit: You need to consider the very real possibility that you're dramatically overthinking this simple upgrade.

Edited 24 April, 2019 by sepulchrave

[TMB]

The bush should be installed with the flats top and bottom as Darkside said. Otherwise there will be torsion on the bush when the suspension is in the normal standing position.

[sepulchrave]

12 minutes ago, TMB said:

The bush should be installed with the flats top and bottom as Darkside said. Otherwise there will be torsion on the bush when the suspension is in the normal standing position.

 

What torsion?

[rum4mo]

Surely when the TCA moves about its pivot point due to the spring compressing there will be a torsion force on the hex pin which it will transfer into that bush, which is why there is a correct rotation to fit it and correct rotation, in the case of the non voided bush is so that there is minimal torsional forces in the fixed bush while the suspension is loaded normally by the car, The original voided one will have other considerations as not all the voids are the same dimensions.

 

Edit:- we need to see this new tool, and then see it in action!

Edited 24 April, 2019 by rum4mo

[TMB]

8 minutes ago, rum4mo said:

Surely when the TCA moves about its pivot point due to the spring compressing there will be a torsion force on the hex pin which it will transfer into that bush, which is why there is a correct rotation to fit it and correct rotation, in the case of the non voided bush is so that there is minimal torsional forces in the fixed bush while the suspension is loaded normally by the car, The original voided one will have other considerations as not all the voids are the same dimensions.

 

Edit:- we need to see this new tool, and then see it in action!

 

Yeah, that's it.

[sepulchrave]

Nonsense, in reality there is no detectable resistance to motion whatsoever, the wishbone moves freely.

 

Edit: Also the reason the parts are hexagonal is reduce contact area so that the bush doesn't stick to the pivot when the car is stood for long periods.

Edited 24 April, 2019 by sepulchrave

[TMB]

11 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

Nonsense, in reality there is no detectable resistance to motion whatsoever, the wishbone moves freely.

 

Bullshit.

 

The bush does not have a rotating centre like a PSB bush. When the wishbone is in the normal horizontal position the bush needs to be as free from torsion as possible so that when the wishbone rotates up or down the bush is only loaded torsionally then. Why do you think the bush has a specific orientation in the first place? Aren't you an engineer?

Edited 24 April, 2019 by TMB

[sepulchrave]

6 minutes ago, TMB said:

 

Bullshit.

 

The bush does not have a rotating centre like a PSB bush. When the wishbone is in the normal horizontal position the bush needs to be as free from torsion as possible so that when the wishbone rotates up or down the bush is only loaded torsionally then. Why do you think the bush has a specific orientation in the first place? Aren't you an engineer?

 

See the edit above, also I guarantee you that if you fit a bush to a wishbone you'll be able to twist it easily with your hand, a few pounds of force, let alone 300kg acting on the end of the wishbone.

Think about it harder before calling bull****.