Brake bleeder nozzle

[Breezy_Pete]

1 hour ago, TMB said:

You could always remove the hub nut and pull the lot off. Having the hub out of the way makes fitting a new cylinder/shoes much easier too. You could separate the hub and drum once it's off the car.

 

I'm going to try this next time I get involved with a stuck one.

At first I thought "brilliant idea", then, a few minutes ago, I thought "but you've still got nothing to really catch hold of to pull". Then finally I realised "you'd just bolt a wheel back on and pull that, or kick it from the inside".   

[bigjohn]

22 minutes ago, Wino said:

 

I'm going to try this next time I get involved with a stuck one.

At first I thought "brilliant idea", then, a few minutes ago, I thought "but you've still got nothing to really catch hold of to pull". Then finally I realised "you'd just bolt a wheel back on and pull that, or kick it from the inside".   

 

Is there a part number for that special "wheel" tool . However on  a more serious note if this is used and kicked from the inside I'd worry about the stability of the car. Sideways forces on axle stands can cause them to topple. However used as extra leverage / pulling power may work from the outside.

 

I remember Fords of old (eg MKII Cortina) with drum rust issues - usually where the middle of the drum touched the bearing housing near the dust cap. I used to drown in Plusgas for a few hours and then persuade the drum off rotating and tapping around the drum top/inner edge with a cloth covered hammer (never hammer metal on cast drum as it can shatter)

Edited 31 March, 2019 by bigjohn

[Breezy_Pete]

Yeah, fair point; I always make cars very stable with multiple, redundant,  'holdy-uppy things' before getting under them, but not everyone would necessarily do so.

Main thing is you could bolt whatever you like to the hub threads and pull on that, where a rusty drum circumference doesn't give much to catch hold of.

 

Don't forget kids, hub nut is a one-use item. 

[TMB]

27 minutes ago, Wino said:

 

I'm going to try this next time I get involved with a stuck one.

At first I thought "brilliant idea", then, a few minutes ago, I thought "but you've still got nothing to really catch hold of to pull". Then finally I realised "you'd just bolt a wheel back on and pull that, or kick it from the inside".   

 

Indeed 

[xman]

24 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

(never hammer metal on cast drum as it can shatter)

 

AFAIK the drum is steel, not cast iron and not likely to shatter.

[bigjohn]

4 minutes ago, xman said:

 

AFAIK the drum is steel, not cast iron and not likely to shatter.

 

Good point - sorry just remebering the old days!

 

 

Edited 31 March, 2019 by bigjohn

[rum4mo]

I'm not convinced about them being steel, I've never worried about breaking them, but there are some letters/numbers moulded into them and the main reason that they are buggars to clean up on the outside and paint, and still look okay after a few more years is, I've always considered, down to the fact that they are a cast part and that the not critical areas have been left untouched by tooling and so end up being slightly porous and so never get sealed by paint and love to start rusting again.

 

Mind you maybe some of you are just pointing out the difference between old school iron and steel, so in that case, they will be cast steel - or drop forged steel?

[Breezy_Pete]

They'll be whatever is cheapest, which will be cast iron, I reckon.

[KillerTom500]

Oh I whacked the sh*ts of the drum no movement and it ain’t cracking it’s verry rusted getting a tool for the hub nut this eve and then looking to do the job correctly. How a simple wrong turn with a wrench can be such a headache awtch

[VWD]

22 hours ago, Wino said:

 

I'm going to try this next time I get involved with a stuck one.

At first I thought "brilliant idea", then, a few minutes ago, I thought "but you've still got nothing to really catch hold of to pull". Then finally I realised "you'd just bolt a wheel back on and pull that, or kick it from the inside".   

Wino - never looked at the hub bolt side of it, but on one car many years ago , I found that first slackening off the nut tension I could use the nut to pull the drum off bu fixing a spanner across the drum using the wheel nuts. Slacken hub nut to be slightly proud of hub- tighten spanner on top of hub but and then turn drum to wind off nut and thus apply tension to drum . Sometimes an adjuster 2.5lb might be needed ( AKA 2.5lb hammer) to aid drum removal . I've never had a problem getting drums off .Most of the earlier cars were drum all round  .  I found that either the drum came off leaving shoes in place, or as in Furby case- the drum dragged the shoes off. ( The one car I've never had to resort to the spanner method)

[KillerTom500]

As an updat by getting the 30 mill 12 sided nut of the bearing and drum came off as a whole. Brake cylinder has been replaced but noticed the pedal would still go to the floor afster bleeding... turned out the self adjustment yoke broke off... so lucky I ordered a full set of 2 brake cylinders and pads for both sides :) only got a small question the bottom of the shoes are hold in by bolts it seems? 

[TMB]

No the shoes are not held by any bolts. Don't know why you would think that.

[xman]

The 2 bolts at the bottom just hold a steel pad which stops the shoes sliding forward off the bottom pivot.

 

You need to refit the drum before bleeding.  Make sure the handbrake is off! Lift the adjustment wedge, and make sure the shoes are centred, and the cylinder is balanced left/right. After refitting the drum. Slowly pump the brakes to push the shoes out and for the adjustment wedge to move. Do not apply the handbrake at this stage!

 

Don't forget to keep an eye on fluid level in the reservoir.

 

Bleed the brakes.

 

Press the brake pedal hard several times, this is necessary to get the shoes correctly positioned and adjusted.

 

Then apply the handbrake a few times. Check the handbrake adjuster which is located at the back of the centre console behind the handbrake. The two cables ends should be balanced when the handbrake is applied, i.e. the cross bar that pulls them should not be skewed. If it is badly skewed, you may need to release the drum adjusters again by levering up with a screwdriver and repeat pressing the brake pedal hard several times. Then recheck the handbrake function and cable cross bar.

 

There are 4 nylon pads pressed into the back plate (part no 6N0 609 589)  on which the shoes slide. If these are worn or damaged, its best to change these as otherwise they will add to sticking brake problem. If they weren't supplied as part of your kit, they should be cheap from your local dealer.

 

https://www.skoda-parts.com/spare-part/6n0609589-sliding-part-skoda-10625.html

Edited 6 April, 2019 by xman

[VWD]

On 31/03/2019 at 11:26, KillerTom500 said:

Thanks evryone for the reply’s the screw holding it is indeed out, and there is no force by the shoes it’s just so rusted that ill need to use the penetrating fluid method. And bigjohn I already replaced my front rotors, pads and brake fluid in the past, if I don’t think it’s safe I wouldn’t drive with anyone else in the car.

KT- try using a wooden/plastic mallet and hit the drum on the face to break the rust seal. Sometimes helps to use a lever( WITH LIGHT FORCE) between the drum and backplate.

Moral of story(A ND I'm not having a dig at OP) force breaks. And as a bit of education- bleed nipples are oft fitted where they get all the road crap, making them prone to seizing and shearing off if excess force is applied .  There is a way of repairing a sheared brake nipple, cheaply, but not on here.

[KeithCheetham]

 While you are in their, check to ensure that the handbrake lever that pivots on a rivet in the top shoe is free to move as these can seize over time which can result in shoes not retracting, causing drum removal issues.

[TMB]

42 minutes ago, xman said:

The 2 bolts at the bottom just hold a steel pad which stops the shoes sliding forward off the bottom pivot.

 

 

 

They are rivets.

[VWD]

On 31/03/2019 at 22:17, Wino said:

 

I'm going to try this next time I get involved with a stuck one.

At first I thought "brilliant idea", then, a few minutes ago, I thought "but you've still got nothing to really catch hold of to pull". Then finally I realised "you'd just bolt a wheel back on and pull that, or kick it from the inside".   

mentioned it before- spanner across the wheel bolts,with hub nut slackened, till it bites on spanner. Then rotate hub to slacken nut- nut will pressure hub.If needed a gentle tap on drum will help it release.

YE OLDE BMC rear drum tip.

[KillerTom500]

Allright evrything is fitted newly now I cant get the drum over the new shoes since its too bigg ... anyone got an idea how i get the tention lower or the shoes closer to eachother?

[xman]

Are they new shoes?

 

1. Make sure the handbrake is OFF

 

2. Make sure the brake cable is attached in the drum correctly and the lever* it's attached to, is pushed as far out as it will allow

 

3. Push the adjustment wedge right up to let the shoes retract

 

4. Push the pistons fully into the brake cylinder. You may need to open the bleed valve to do this.

 

5. Ensure the shoes aren't too high or too low. Push them up/down to adjust.

 

6. If still difficult, then slacken off the handbrake cables in the centre console behind the handbrake in the car. 

 

*lubricate the lever at the pivot with shoes particularly if the shoes are the old ones as this point is the main culprit for drum brake sticking on

[KillerTom500]

Shoes and all springs are new (bought a full kit off amazon from TRW) will try all of this tomorrow

[TMB]

6 hours ago, KillerTom500 said:

Shoes and all springs are new (bought a full kit off amazon from TRW) will try all of this tomorrow

 

I had the full TRW kit as well. I still popped a drop of oil on the lever pivot at the rivet to help prevent seizing.

[VWD]

Mentioned before ,the pistons seem to have a desire to open when not held in by brake shoes. One comment I had was that there's a spring in the piston. I got round it one time by applying pressure to shoes and slightly releasing the bleed nipple to take some pressure out of system and let shoes return. .  Also been mention of some sort of retainer on pistons . I wonder if it's simply a case of removing vacuum from servo ( pump the brake pedal)before doing any work.

Or possibly with a rear shoe change it's time to renew the brake fluid and stop the problem. xtra circa £20 for a Gunsen kit + fluid.

Techies- ( and Tech1e) any comments?

[rum4mo]

Well I would not suggest draining the fluid out of the system to avoid the wheel cylinder being troublesome as that could lead to air getting into the ABS block, so adding in another bit of effort.

I think that it is just common sense when working on drum brakes that have a double ended wheel cylinder to take precautions to avoid a piston escaping from its cylinder.

[TMB]

2 hours ago, VWD said:

 One comment I had was that there's a spring in the piston.

 

There's a spring inside of nearly all rear wheel cylinders. It keeps the pistons pressed against the shoes, otherwise you'd have to pump the pedal every time you wanted to brake, which would be rather entertaining