Want to go back to auto gearbox but not DSG

[Ootohere]

@Estate Man

Can you say who these many manufacturers are that are telling you such things, and who you are advising or is this yet another 'sensitive' issue like who you work with on engines and oil and all very 'industry / commercially confidential'?

& is it globally the Many Manufacturers are moving away from CVT's, 

CVT and Hybrids, 48volt systems seem to be the perfect solution to the current high emissions with ICE,

so that would have to be some from Nissan, Mitsubishi,Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Suzuki, Subaru.

The ones not getting investigated over emissions, other than maybe 'Nissan /Mitshubishi/ Renault' .

 

I thought this thread was about small cars, Fabia / 308 size, C3 size, smaller than an Octavia.

Not sports cars, not big engines, just small family cars, maybe in the UK with a NSL of 60 mph (70 on certain roads.)

Changing gear up and down through 8,9 or 10 gears from 0-70 mph type thing. 6 or 7 gears was quite a lot as it was and still needed cheating from 

VW Group to get low emissions. Now they do 7 speed wet and dry and use 0w 20 FS lV oil in the engines to get the WLTP / RDE figures.

KIA build cars in the Czech republic, and have DCT gearboxes, and do not have the issues with them that the VW Group have, but then then KIA does provide a decent Warranty if there are issues.

(My 2006 1.1 16v 68ps Kia Picanto 4 speed Auto did 42 MPG even just doing short runs of a couple of miles in the under 30,000 miles it did over 6 years.)

 

 

Plenty have used CVT long term like Suzuki & Subaru.

As to 'Virtually all CVT's to date don't go big distances without issues'   

As often as you say that it is not actually true.

Oddly the CVT versions are often in regions with more extreme weather / climates.

Asia, India, Far East, Australia, New-Zealand, North America, Canada etc.

CVT's there then Auto or Automated Manuals in Europe.

 

The Autoboxes are now going 8,9 and 10 speed because the power Fuel Economy / Emissions has caught up with the manufacturers that had 'very poor' economy in the real world but had managed to achieve good test results.

 

8,9,10 gears to act almost as a CVT does, and we will see how these Autoboxes fair in Fords, small engine / capacity Fords.

 

 

 

 

You would think it was common sense, or read the manual, but then as with Auto's or DSG's / AMT never take things for granted.

 

 

Edited 11 May, 2019 by Skoffski

[wiganken1]

Silver 1011 & Skoffski - Regarding body size I do not want anything larger than the Fabia Estate / Peugeot 308 and the 308 seems to be looking to be what I may go for in order to get the EAT6 gearbox although the Citroen C3 Flair is also a possibility.

[Ootohere]

For comfort & economy i was going for a last model Citroen Cactus with 'Bubbles' as a keeper.

I know someone with a Mobility one due back soon at 3 years old. I was going to watch for it coming up at auction even though it is a diesel and i wanted a petrol.

It is exactly what i was after colour, trim, privacy glass, low miles so i borrowed one the same for the day and found the footwell too cramped and the shoulder room was not great.

The newer ones are a bit roomier, but what i really wanted was an older style car. I will get one sometime.

Presently i am liking the SX4 i bought, 1.6 petrol auto and easy 40-50 mpg, and have been looking at Suzuki SX4-S-cross CVT's as they are 'Much Cheapness' due to people thinking they are rubbish.

Must be the 'social media' affect there where perception is far removed from fact.

Edited 11 May, 2019 by Skoffski

[KenONeill]

16 hours ago, wiganken1 said:

I have looked at the C3 and it looks OK except for that door mat/rug stuck to the sides.

Is that like bubble-wrap only black? If so, then it's not on any "normal" C3, only the "Cactus" model.

Edited 11 May, 2019 by KenONeill

[Ootohere]

That was the last model C4 Cactus.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/330065-citroen-c4-cactus

 

 

Some C3 now have there own plastic tat low down. 

Citroen C3

or Citroen C3'Aircross'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 11 May, 2019 by Skoffski

[vrskeith]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/under-skin-how-volkswagens-dsg-gearbox-predicted-future

 

[Aspman]

On 11/05/2019 at 07:49, Skoffski said:

@Estate Man

Can you say who these many manufacturers are that are telling you such things, and who you are advising or is this yet another 'sensitive' issue like who you work with on engines and oil and all very 'industry / commercially confidential'?

& is it globally the Many Manufacturers are moving away from CVT's, 

 

 

 

Plenty have used CVT long term like Suzuki & Subaru.

As to 'Virtually all CVT's to date don't go big distances without issues'   

As often as you say that it is not actually true.

Oddly the CVT versions are often in regions with more extreme weather / climates.

Asia, India, Far East, Australia, New-Zealand, North America, Canada etc.

CVT's there then Auto or Automated Manuals in Europe.

 

 

 

 

Just to chip in, mate of mine has a 3.0 Subaru Forrester with a CVT. He's well over 130k on the car with no gearbox issues at all and plans to keep it for a considerable time longer. He doesn't coddle the car either. He's into field sports so the car spends its weekends bouncing around country tracks and getting wellied the rest of the time. Might just be subarus of that era that were tanks.

[Guest]

That's very good Aspman. Subaru is not a brand I've had much to do with.

 

If only VAG cars had DSG's that could go that sort of distance on a regular basis without issues!

[Guest]

On 11/05/2019 at 07:49, Skoffski said:

@Estate Man

Can you say who these many manufacturers are that are telling you such things, and who you are advising or is this yet another 'sensitive' issue like who you work with on engines and oil and all very 'industry / commercially confidential'?

& is it globally the Many Manufacturers are moving away from CVT's, 

 

Yes it is rather sensitive. I came out of retirement to take a 6 month contract with this company. I have had to have 5 weeks off due to my wife being extremely ill in Queens, London. She's needed two brain operations and only just survived. So I'm making up for lost time at the mo. The contract should be finished in another month as I've extended it slightly.

 

You'll appreciate I cannot publish details about where I work. It's a secure research facility anyway, and it's never wise to do that online. For me it would be like you publishing your home address! Not wise. The last time I did so was done so inadvertently on another site that I moderate on. Unfortunately, within two days my company was inundated with requests (somewhere in the region of 23-25 requests iirc) for me to undertake work for individuals to fix their cars, examine their cars, and write letters to the manufacturers on their behalf to fight their cases etc etc etc. Most annoying and all because I made a slip of the tongue, or keyboard in that case. So I won't be doing that again in a hurry. It even happened here once due to a Skoda meet that I attended and during which time I discussed some problems with a group of folks who were experiencing fuel consumption problems with their 1.6crd diesel Fabia's (and two Golfs). I ended up testing and researching their cars, doing full diagnostics on them, and writing full reports to the owners to allow them to see what the problems were. I also found two faulty ECU's in the process.  The main problem turned out to be the owners, not the cars! Another 5 days of my time gone for free! However, it did have minor research value for me, so I wasn't completely hard done by.

 

You may have forgotten I am a Honda & Nissan factory trained master tech. I can vouch for the issues quite a few CVT boxes have and it's well publicized.  Not trying to argue with you.

 

Regarding manufacturers who are telling us, the engine design and development people, what is going to happen, that's easy. I can say that Nissan, Citroen and Peugeot are leading the way on that .closely affiliated with AISIN. Citroen and AISIN jointly developed the EAT6 gearbox specifically to avoid having to use a DCT box. they state that in their literature. I'm told by industy inteligence that almost all the big boys are trying to reduce the issues with DSG/DCT and CVT. Egven Kia & Hyundai get issues. All have shorter lives than fluid power transmission, so torque converters, which never actually went away, are coming back in as we see from Mercedes & many others. EV's also do have transmission gearboxes Skofski. Some single speed and many others coming out will have multispeed units. But I'm not going to be involved with any of that.

 

On another note, I see you are wanting to get one of the C4 Cactus cars. Absolutely splendid. They are great cars and very very comfortable as you probably know. If you have any issues you want to discuss at the time you are about to purchase, then let me know. I can easily assist you, if needed in making sure the car is sound. I'm also in Scotland quite often these days!

 

Bye for now.

Edited 13 May, 2019 by Estate Man

[bspman]

A little off topic, but I've quite enjoyed reading this thread. 

Have been considering what to get mum for her next car as the CVT in her micra seems to leak transmission fluid.

[Guest]

bspman, depending what year your mum's Micra is, the CVT is usually ok if serviced correctly. The problem is they need a fluid change every three years otherwise they don't last more than 5 minutes. Even if they are serviced regualarly, the CVT doesn't last as long as it should.

[mac11irl]

On 13/05/2019 at 22:58, bspman said:

A little off topic, but I've quite enjoyed reading this thread. 

Have been considering what to get mum for her next car as the CVT in her micra seems to leak transmission fluid.

 

A little equally off topic... ive seen a few shiny new Micras on the roads the last couple of months (no where near as many older ones mind) and ... this is the interesting part.... i think its not a bad looking car... ive always hated them, in particular that last gen bubbly thing, but the new one is neat and inoffensive with enough styling detail to lift it.

Edited 16 May, 2019 by mac11irl

[Ootohere]

More OT.

 

New John Cooper Works MINI's with 2 pedals only. 

(& paddles.)

[chimaera]

2 hours ago, mac11irl said:

 

A little equally off topic... ive seen a few shiny new Micras on the roads the last couple of months (no where near as many older ones mind) and ... this is the interesting part.... i think its not a bad looking car... ive always hated them, in particular that last gen bubbly thing, but the new one is neat and inoffensive with enough styling detail to lift it.

Yeah, it's actually quite smart looking!

[chimaera]

An observation I've seen on the switch back from DCT to torque converter 'boxes is that the ability of modern torque converters to lock up in most/all gears has eroded most of the DCT's efficiency advantage and it's a better proven technology.

 

That being said, I find it a bit odd that DCT's are as bad as they seem to be at times since none of the technologies used in them are exactly new: constant mesh transmission, wet clutches, mechatronic control units, etc. This stuff has been around for decades yet when brought together in a DCT problems seem to emerge. I wonder how much of it is teething trouble exacerbated by a market where competing technologies are very mature and there's little room for error.

[Ootohere]

Renault, KIA / Hyundai are doing OK with DCT.

 

Now that FORD have accepted they got it wrong things can move on.

As to VW Group getting the DQ200 DSG sorted in the various years 2009-2012, 2012-2015, 2015-2017 and even now in 2018-19 seems to be an issue.

'Twin Dry Clutch' & not 'Wet Clutch'.

 

Only small percentages maybe but then if they said that 'in a press release' and on VW Group websites that would be a start rather than them just pretending that it is no big deals, 

overblown on social media / forums and people only complain and never big up how good they are.

They are great, but some are badly flawed.

No manufacturers service guidelines or recommendations to owners is an issue.

No scheduled oil changes with these.

Edited 16 May, 2019 by Skoffski

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Skoffski said:

Renault, KIA / Hyundai are doing OK with DCT.

 

Yes, but they do have issues which are publicised. Not as bad as VAG problems by any means. The main one is they wear out quicker than Torque converter boxes, and some become noisy and have slipping clutches. Hyundai are a very small importer as is Kia but they all have the same issues. Being such small players you don't tend to hear about these issues, but it seems there is an acceptance by manufacturers that DCT can be troublesome. I happen to know changes are afoot in Renault too and in around 18 months many manufacturers will be introducing, and in some case re-introducing Torque Converters again as they are now so efficient and less problematic than DCT/DSG. Many manufacturers are doing it now, such as Mercedes, Citroen, Peugeot, Nissan etc etc. Fluid transmission is also easier to manufacture and cheaper, giving much the same driving experience of DCT boxes. they last a lot longer too. Although I have been involved in specifying materials and designs for one or two of these new boxes, I'm actually not involved in the real nitty gritty of auto box development which is where the real excitement is at. My specialty is engines. But it is going to get very interesting over the next couple of years regarding autos.

Edited 17 May, 2019 by Estate Man

[Ootohere]

Issue seems to not be having all the gear in Workshops, it is having people with an idea dealing with the drivers / keepers of vehicles.

The UK needs more savvy young people that understand IT and modern technologies.

Manual workers and those with the training and skills with coding.

 

The real excitement is in Hybrid and EV and low emissions & maintenance and keeping stuff that can be light light because of the extra weight of some components.  CVT & DCT seems to be doing that with cooking getting about transport vehicles.

 

Many changes can be expected at Renault / Dacia, Nissan / Mitsubishi after recent goings on. 

More deals with more suppliers than previously were being done under the Senior Management / funders.

 

 

I doubt that those buying a Petrol / Hybrid with DCT from Kia / Hyundai will accept issues, or be expected to in the way that the VW Group blow off owners.

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/466864-so-who-buys-what-in-the-uk

Big enough of an importer to the UK in comparison with Skoda, not with the VW Group though, so VW,SEAT & Audi.

Maybe the better Manufacturer / assembler in the Czech Republic or Slovakia, they at least give a warranty longer enough to go from the person / fleet leasing to the person buying used after 3 years.

Edited 17 May, 2019 by Skoffski

[Guest]

Yes, as I mention above, the point being that Hyundai and Kia accept they have some issues. They don't beat around the bush, they just replace the gearbox or dodgy part without query. Not always the case with Skoda or any VAG group cars. And I think that is a big reason why you don't hear so much about the Korean gearbox issues. Customers are therefore generally happy with few ever needing to sue or flag up problems with the car companies.

 

I know the team I am currently working with will be tasked with a considerable amount of EV development over the next 2 years. This is in preparation for a new generation of EV vehicles coming out in 2023-24. It takes that long or longer to  get it right and get the tooling and other machinery right, then do all the testing over huge mileages. But they will be very very good cars. I've seen the specs they are working to and it's all achievable. None of them use CVT or DCT and because of the type of cars these EV's will be, they will be using fluid transmission because of it's robustness. EV's give huge amounts of torque. Even the humble 64kw Hyundai Kona gives out about 202hp & 395nm of torque from almost zero revs. It's amazing, But really rags the gearboxes. I've driven one and it still can top out above the range manufacturers claim. We did over 325miles in one on one charge and fully recharged in 55 mins on a fast charger with slightly warm battery packs. Nice!

[Ootohere]

Which gearbox had this Hyundai Kona EV fitted? 

Zero revs, do you mean from standstill and not pressing the 'accelerator' pedal seeing as it is no longer a 'throttle / gas' pedal?

 

I have driven the Kia e-Niro & Kona EV, i had the Hyundai for a long weekend

and also driven the the Hybrids with DCT gearboxes, fun fun fun, lovely DCT gearboxes with Sport mode there if you want.

The petrol Stonic with a DCT is quite nice and dove rather well.

 

Big issue with the Hybrids and the EV's is not yet possible to have Tow Bars in the UK even for Bike Racks let alone to tow and have a Manufacturers Warranty valid.

They need to get 'Tow Packs' available as a Option'.

The Electrics are just off a normal car battery anyway and the Hybrids can tow in other World Regions.

 

 

 

 

Edited 18 May, 2019 by Skoffski

[PetrolDave]

7 hours ago, Skoffski said:

The Electrics are just off a normal car battery anyway and the Hybrids can tow in other World Regions.

Sounds like they can't be bothered to spend the testing time and paying the extra type approval fees for the tow bar option in the EU?

[Ootohere]

They are allowed in other countries and really as to type approval that can not be such an issue expense on Global vehicles. Time will tell if more WLTP / RDE related.  I cancled my e-Niro order and waiting to see what comes with the brick that is a e-Soul or if they do a R-SOUL.    I have a reg number on retention that will be perfect or I could sell. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Skoffski said:

They are allowed in other countries and really as to type approval that can not be such an issue expense on Global vehicles. Time will tell if more WLTP / RDE related.  I cancled my e-Niro order and waiting to see what comes with the brick that is a e-Soul or if they do a R-SOUL.    I have a reg number on retention that will be perfect or I could sell. 

 

George, if you are having retention problems, a new R-soul will likely fix that...lol. Sorry, couldn't resist!

 

Yeah, the Kona especially is of interest to me. I was amazed at how quick it was and how far it would go. It was a works car that we drove. The Kona electric has a single speed differential gearbox to transmit the power. It has a farly hefty torque damper too for protection of the motor and gearbox. That's all it has at the mo, but in the future quite a few EV's will have multi-speed units which may include two or three speed units. This can have the effect of increasing performance and range on some models, but not all. Depends on several factors. Electric motors like to spin, and spin fast.

 

 

Edited 18 May, 2019 by Estate Man

[KenONeill]

57 minutes ago, Estate Man said:

a new R-soul will likely fix

Also @Skoffski - Yeah, that's only fractionally better than the Subaru Levorg (Grovel spelled backwards).

[Guest]

Skoffski, forgot to mention about my comment made about the Kona power output..."you have almost complete full power from near zero revs". You probably know this but electric motors give almost maximum torque from the word go! Unlike ICE engines which can only produce their maximum torque at a particular rev range, in an EV you don't have to wait for the engine to reach max torque revs. Full power is available immediately. That's why when you drive the Kona the front wheels scrabble for grip all the time and your neck feels like it is going to break if you are not careful with the throttle. 202hp and 395nm of torque is quite something in a car that size.