Hi, 

After bushes were changed I had the alignment tracking done. The steering wheel was slightly out and the car pulled to right slightly. Interestingly a spirit level over tyre of 1.2m length confirmed one wheel was out of alignment

Kwik fit have the Hunter machine and offering free alignment at moment, with no obligation to have it done if out. I had it done 3years ago with them

The caster is off on near side.

After Cupra solid bushes were fitted it is still off. 

The car pulls slightly to left, despite toe being aligned. Is this caster way out or going to cause issues?

I read the difference between left and right wheels should not be more than .30 degrees. It is .36degrees. 

It was more like 0.5 to 0.6 previously.

Caster does not affect tyre wear.

Can subframe be adjusted?

Will this cause any issues uncorrected?

Thanks

 

Front axle - chassis			Standard suspension	Sport chassis	Rough road suspension
PR numbers			1GA, 1GG G01, G02, G05	1GD G04	1GB G03, G06
Overall track -adjustable-			10' ± 10'	10' ± 10'	10' ± 10'
Toe difference angle on turns of 20° of inside wheel -not adjustable-			1° 30' ± 20' 1)	1° 32' ± 20'	1° 28' ± 20' 1)
			55' ± 20' 2)		53' ± 20' 2)
Max. wheel lock angle -not adjustable-			39° 14' 1)	38° 37'	39° 34' 1)2)
			36° 59' 2)
Camber3)			-30' ± 30' 4)	-39' ± 30'	-15' ± 30'
			-28' ± 30' 5)
	Max. difference between left and right side		30'	30'	30'
Caster angle -not adjustable-			4° 28' ± 30' 1)	4° 42' ± 30'	4° 14' ± 30' 1)
			2° 55' ± 30' 2)		2° 42' ± 30' 2)
	Max. difference between left and right side		30'	30'	30'

That is interesting and annoying, when I went to KwikFit to get the toeing checked on my daughter’s late 2009 Ibiza 1.4 16V SC, the caster was also out, too low a value on each side! My next plan is to get my wife’s 2015 Polo checked by them and if it’s caster is also too low a value I’ll need to get it checked by a proper place and if the caster values are okay - I’ll be having a word with KwikFit, okay they charged me £59.95 for a full geometry check and a toeing adjust, but the caster and camber really do need to be correct if they are offering this service!

 

Edit:- correct me if I’m wrong someone, but the toeing and camber measurements do not require any movement of the steering wheel, caster requires a 20 degrees turn from side to side!

Edited 24 May, 20197 yr by rum4mo

1 hour ago, bmbmdmb said:

Can subframe be adjusted?

Not the subframe, so much as the consoles plus subframe assembly.

 

There are two M12 bolts through each console that go vertically upwards into fixed points on the chassis. The holes they go through in the consoles are 17mm diameter. 

So there's +/-2.5mm theoretical (if the chassis is perfectly square and to mid-tolerance) adjustment possible in fore-and-aft (for caster) and side-to-side (for camber equalisation) directions, or any combination thereof.  For the side-to-side they're a paired adjustment because the bolts/holes holding the consoles to the subframe don't have any significant clearance, so the subframe defines their absolute separation. So you can only equalise camber between sides, not adjust each separately.

 

Caster ought to be individually adjustable by skewing/squaring the subframe+consoles versus the four holes in the chassis, within those +/-2.5mm limits.

 

Should I draw a picture? (I am very bad at such pictures BTW).

 

 

 

 

I have just added a bit to my posting as you, wino posted, if it makes any difference.

I don't understand what you're saying about the 20° stuff.

The subframe has been off between the 2016 and 2019 Kwik fit alignment. 2016 values not shown, but very close to 2019.

What bolts on subframe would I need to loosen? Would it make a difference? I am enquiring because I have read that if the caster is less positive, to the vertical axis than the driver's side the car will veer to left more, particularly at higher seeds. 

This is happening very slightly, I can live with it but it is annoying. I know road cover will be to left, but if I drive on right hand side of road, other side of road crest , the car will be dead straight or only slightly to right. My overall toe is 0.1 degree to right

I could be wrong but I doubt very much that a garage checking wheel alignment will want to loosen the console bush bolts to do an adjustment.

 

I have replaced my console bushes (so know what Wino is talking about) and had one of the bolts snap on me and so has at least one other member on this forum too.

We both had to seek an accommodating garage for rectification of this problem, and mine is a DSG so the sub-frame had to be moved some iirc.

I suspect a garage would be very wary of this, that is if they were even aware of the ability to adjust / equalize camber this way.

And then I'd be surprised if they could be bothered anyway, maybe.

41 minutes ago, bmbmdmb said:

What bolts on subframe would I need to loosen?

As said, not bolts on the subframe,  but the two bolts each side that hold the two aluminium consoles to the chassis. These are what allow variation in the position of the consoles, and so the subframe relative to the chassis, in the X-Y plane. 

 

This isn't the clearest diagram in the world, especially with regard to which bolts go where, but item 1, the subframe, is non-adjustably bolted to the two consoles, item 2. The consoles in turn mount the whole 'subframe + consoles' assembly to the chassis, via two holes in the consoles that are very loose fits around the bolts. I'll highlight which bolts I mean in a sec.

https://skoda.7zap.com/en/cz/fabia/fab/2005-453/1/199-199020/

 

13 minutes ago, Tilt said:

I could be wrong but I doubt very much that a garage checking wheel alignment will want to loosen the console bush bolts to do an adjustment.

 

Not that bolt.  but even so, your average tyre place isn't going to want to loosen off the whole subframe plus consoles assembly either, as it would be easy to make it all worse, and no easy way to check whether any movements have improved matters, without doing everything up again and re-measuring.  Could take several small adjustments to get the hang of what movement amount has what overall effect, and so cost a lot in time.

 

 

The two red lines show the bolted joints between consoles and subframe (and steering rack actually). No meaningful amount of adjustment there.

The green circles show the two holes in each console that are a loose fit around the M12 bolts that mount the consoles + subframe as a whole to the chassis.  This does allow a small amount of movement in the X-Y plane. If X is along the length of the car, then this will vary caster angle(s), Y would then be camber, and 'equalisable' by moving the whole lot side to side.

 

Edited 24 May, 20197 yr by Wino

Just to confirm. Caster is definitely not adjustable.

 

My camber is in range.

I've read that a bent wishbone could cause this. When I bought car it was tracking ahead and wheels have had no knocks on kerbs, potholes etc. 

 

3 minutes ago, bmbmdmb said:

Caster is definitely not adjustable.

 

Question or statement?

 

10 minutes ago, Tilt said:

I could be wrong but I doubt very much that a garage checking wheel alignment will want to loosen the console bush bolts to do an adjustment.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Wino said:

Not that bolt.  ???

 

 

 

@Tilt, isn't bolt number 7 the one you had trouble with? Not touching that one here.

Hi Wino, just read your update.

 

Is caster adjustable? Question.

You seem to suggest Yes. I ask because someone else is mentioning camber.

 

It looks like I need to move the subframe forward on left side/ clockwise, looking down on car from above. 

 

If yes to adjustment, would all the bolts need to be loosened to allow movement of subframe and would they take weight of the subframe if front tyres removed to avoid ragging out loose subframe bolts? 

I assume I need to support subframe?Is it heavy? One person job doable?

Thanks

 

 

Edited 24 May, 20197 yr by bmbmdmb

10 minutes ago, bmbmdmb said:

It looks like I need to move the subframe forward on left side/ clockwise, looking down on car from above. 

 

Yeah, I think so. Would need to loosen all four bolts - two through each console - to do so. Then you'd need to be careful not to move the right side console forward or back while adjusting the left, just allowing the console to twist a little relative to the bolts on that side. Does that make sense?

 

A few measurements and some trigonometry would probably allow you to estimate the required movement amount before starting.

Edited 24 May, 20197 yr by Wino

13 minutes ago, Wino said:

@Tilt, isn't bolt number 7 the one you had trouble with? Not touching that one here.

 

Ah, guess my bad as i'm referring to my Octavia, Looks quite a different set up, but i think the idea is similar ie I knew what you meant re the holes in the console and the bolt sizes allowing movement. Three upward bolts on mine. 

I've had (still do) same issues regarding adjusting camber though it has never caused any issues as far as i am aware. Drives straight enough and tyre wear is fine.

 

Good luck to the op, but i doubt it is worth the hassle imo.

36 minutes ago, bmbmdmb said:

would they take weight of the subframe if front tyres removed to avoid ragging out loose subframe bolts?

Sure, you could hang a few whole Fabias off a single M12 bolt I should think, never mind the weight of some consoles, wishbones, a subframe, steering rack and a few other bits and bobs. 

The engine isn't even sitting on the subframe, though it is connected horizontally via the dogbone mount.

 

42 minutes ago, bmbmdmb said:

I assume I need to support subframe?

 

Anything you use to support it is just going to make it harder to move, isn't it?  I see it just hanging off the four, loosened bolts. Loosened enough to allow movement of the console/subframe assembly in the X-Y plane, not removed completely. Obviously the whole car is going to need to be up in the air, supported by the chassis, high enough to give working room under it.

As a bit of an aside, those alignment sheets are very badly laid out, don't you think?

The labels Camber, Caster, Toe for each of the red/green boxes, and the black arrows showing where the current measurement is, seem to draw your eye to thinking the labels apply to the boxes below them, rather than the boxes above them.  If the labels were inside the coloured boxes, it would be muuuuch clearer. They'd just need a slightly smaller font.

 

Confusing too that the measurements are in degrees and decimals of degrees, where Skoda put theirs in degrees and minutes; 60 minutes to the degree. 

Edited 24 May, 20197 yr by Wino

2 hours ago, Wino said:

I don't understand what you're saying about the 20° stuff.

Unless I’m wrong and/or you know better, I think that the usual way to measure caster. Is by taking a measurement at the 20deg turning angle of the the front wheels on their pivot, ie not a direct read off from a car located correctly on the bench.

3 hours ago, rum4mo said:

I’ll be having a word with KwikFit, okay they charged me £59.95 for a full geometry check and a toeing adjust, but the caster and camber really do need to be correct if they are offering this service!

My thoughts exactly. 

I paid £20 for local tyre place GT tyres to do it. They clamped steering wheel but when I drove off the steering wheel was off to left. I was surprised that spirit level showed left tyre was toed in, and now dead ahead relative to the length of car once Kwik fit aligned it. They offered a free 2nd alignment within 30days. I paid £50

To be fair GT tyres did offer a realignment but their equipment is just not accurate. Total toe was just over 0.55 degrees to right out of alignment, which produced noticeable difference in rolling resistance.

Edited 24 May, 20197 yr by bmbmdmb

I’ve now got the sheet for my daughter’s late 2009 Ibiza in front of me and the left caster figure given is 4 09 and the right caster figure given is 4 16, so there is a trend showing here, I will see what my wife’s 2015 Polo ends up being and report back “soon”.

10 minutes ago, rum4mo said:

Unless I’m wrong and/or you know better, I think that the usual way to measure caster. Is by taking a measurement at the 20deg turning angle of the the front wheels on their pivot, ie not a direct read off from a car located correctly on the bench.

I have no idea.

As long as it's done the same way before/after any adjustment, I don't see why it matters?

Yes, but if the way that KwikFit are making this measurement is not correct then giving these figures is pointless.

 

Please understand what I was trying to get across, in simple terms toeing and camber are taken directly from the stationary car on the bench, the caster figure comes from positioning correctly one front wheel, then moving it, ie rotating it about the steering axis/pivot, then taking another reading and from these readings computing the caster figure.

41 minutes ago, Wino said:

As a bit of an aside, those alignment sheets are very badly laid out, don't you think?

Yes. I had to double take to make sure I had the correct label

 

What 4 subframe bolts need to be loosened, according to numbers on the link diagram you kindly provided, thanks

Edited 24 May, 20197 yr by bmbmdmb

Sorry rum, I'm not saying you're wrong or that KwikFit are or aren't doing stuff correctly. All I'm saying is I don't know; but KwikFit are probably going to be consistent in whatever they do.