Caster out, Fabia Vrs 1. Not adjustable?

[xman]

To be honest, I have very little faith in 4 wheel alignment machines or more accurately the "technicians" using them. That goes for the dealers too.

 

 

 

[rum4mo]

wino, maybe a curious thing, the before toeing adjustment and after toeing adjustment figures, remained exactly the same for caster and almost swopped side to side for camber.

Edited 24 May, 2019 by rum4mo

[rum4mo]

12 minutes ago, xman said:

To be honest, I have very little faith in 4 wheel alignment machines or more accurately the "technicians" using them. That goes for the dealers too.

Yes, all down to the operator, I have had a terrible four wheel alignment from VW, an independent VAG place corrected it, but later it failed an MOT because it had trashed its front tyres, then that same VW dealer got it spot on - going by all future tyre wear, ie over the next 8 years, 80K miles.

Quote

 

 

I can’t explain why xman’s “Box” is below my posting!

 

Another comment, the rear camber values swopped side to side for the post toeing adjustment set of measurements!

Edited 24 May, 2019 by rum4mo

[Breezy_Pete]

11 minutes ago, rum4mo said:

wino, maybe a curious thing, the before toeing adjustment and after toeing adjustment figures, remained exactly the same for caster and almost swopped side to side for camber.

I don't see any 'before' measurements, just current ones?

[rum4mo]

Remember the figures I am quoting are from the KwikFit job I got done on my daughter’s late 2009 Ibiza, so it got an initial set of results then the toeing was adjusted and so a second set of results were printed off.

[bmbmdmb]

15 minutes ago, xman said:

To be honest, I have very little faith in 4 wheel alignment machines or more accurately the "technicians" using them. That goes for the dealers too.

After all suspension work I did i.got a Bluetooth 'computurised alignment' £35. It measured all 3 wheel parameter and was 4 wheel alignment. The kit was good, but after reviewing figures, the operator had put a 0.9 degree toe in on both wheels. The car noticeably slowed down on straight stretches that it had kept s steady speed before. Overall toe was zero but this would not have eventually worn outer edge of tyres. Manor tyres north of Doncaster.

[bmbmdmb]

13 minutes ago, Wino said:

before' measurements

See here

[Tilt]

1 hour ago, xman said:

To be honest, I have very little faith in 4 wheel alignment machines or more accurately the "technicians" using them. That goes for the dealers too.

 

 

Yes, I think they make most of it up as they go along.

 

Had to complain to Formula1 few years ago to get some money back after booking and paying online, they (i would say tried, but they actually did) ripped me off upon collection of the vehicle.

I had to pay to get my car back and then complain to get my money back. Thieving barsturds.

 

Lets face it, if they set it all up and everything was fine, they could easily make it look on the first printout, like it wasn't.

Edited 24 May, 2019 by Tilt

[bmbmdmb]

4 hours ago, Wino said:

 

 

 

The two red lines show the bolted joints between consoles and subframe (and steering rack actually). No meaningful amount of adjustment there.

The green circles show the two holes in each console that are a loose fit around the M12 bolts that mount the consoles + subframe as a whole to the chassis.  This does allow a small amount of movement in the X-Y plane. If X is along the length of the car, then this will vary caster angle(s), Y would then be camber, and 'equalisable' by moving the whole lot side to side.

 

Just to confirm,

Loosening the green bolts will allow adjustment in the X axis, forwards in my case to get more positive caster angle. 

Do I then need to loosen the other two bolts with the red line going to them, or can the green circled bolts on console pivot/swing around them with them fastened up tight?

What's resting on the subframe weight wise? I thought subframe was to stiffen chassis and support bushes

Thanks

[Breezy_Pete]

Think of the subframe plus a console either side as a single solid entity. All that attaches that entity to the car body/chassis is the bolts - two each side - that go through the holes ringed in green. No need to touch anything except those four bolts.

[bmbmdmb]

3 minutes ago, Wino said:

ringed in green. No need to touch anything except those four bolts.

Two green left side and two green right side? Or two green left side AND 

loosen two red bolts. Sorry to persist I just want to be sure. Ta

[Breezy_Pete]

35 minutes ago, bmbmdmb said:

Two green left side and two green right side?

This.

 

For what it's worth, I suspect situations like yours may happen where a previous attempt at changing a console bush (wishbone rear bush) has gone wrong and required a new/replacement console.

This can easily happen if the front wishbone bolt (the one I thought @Tilt was talking about before we learned he wasn't thinking Fabias) seizes in the console and breaks off in, or strips the alloy thread.

 

Imagine if the car is jacked up at just this one front corner (assuming driveway DIY job), while the knackered console is being unbolted from chassis and subframe, prior to the new one getting put in. The chassis could be forgiven for having a teeny bit of a twist in this situation, especially once the last M12 bolt holding the old console to body is released. 

Then the new console gets bolted in and tightened up, with all the attention of the DIY'er focussed on sorting out the nightmare of the sudden increase in complexity and cost of the job, instead of the precise alignment of the new console/body position relative to where the old one was. That could explain the asymmetry you're seeing.

 

Any sign that either console is newer than the other?

 

This ebay listing from one of our own members has a photo that nicely illustrates the 'single entity' that is the subframe plus consoles (and even wishbones in this case) and the fairly gaping 17mm diameter holes that are ones I've ringed in green in the ETKA diagram.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Complete-Skoda-Fabia-vRS-mk1-subframe-consoles-lower-arms-and-ARB-Can-post/143222944934?hash=item2158c0b4a6:g:8HMAAOSw-iZcGBhH

 

Shame the photo is kinda upside down, or 90° round judging by the bricks!.

 

Before any attempt at fixing your asymmetry, make sure the car is nicely level, at least side to side, ideally front to back too, so that the chassis is in its most relaxed 'normal' position.

 

Edited 24 May, 2019 by Wino

[sepulchrave]

I'm confused, all the caster measurements look to be within tolerance so I'm unclear what the problem is?

[bmbmdmb]

32 minutes ago, Wino said:

55 minutes ago, bmbmdmb said:

Two green left side and two green right side?

This.

Nice one.

To be honest the driver's side is just out. I'm sure that the caster was showing 4.18' at one point, in green. 

I'm more worried about difference in caster between front wheels. I think wheel is harder to turn to right and easier to left. 

35 minutes ago, Wino said:

Any sign that either console is newer than the other?

Actually, yes. The nearside I have issue with looks newer, far less scoring on inside. Although, this story does not fit with mileage. The car had one owner till 10k then 2nd owner until 45k. 2nd owner told me nothing was done to car, seemed consistent with wear and tear I saw on car. Console bushes failed within 10k of buying it at 53k. He was not mechanically minded so this does not fit as s DIY bodge. The garage local to me fitted the 'voided rear console bushes' before I started getting more involved myself. They fitted the two bushes within a couple of hours, £80 for two. I supplied bushes. No spare console lying around I suspect. Having

seen scoring from drill bit ended on driver's side rear console and pristine condition of near side console when I fitted Cupra bushes myself I did wonder whether they only fitted one bush, the one that actually had failed.

 

Incidentally, I see powerflex sell caster, as well as, camber PU bushes. Pricey though £140 per pair. I'm not going there though.

 

I have access to a garage so will have good access under car, two 3ton jacks., Jack stands. I'm changing dog bone bush and oil change while I'm under car also.

 

Appreciate advice

[bmbmdmb]

Near side 3degrees 77'

 

Driver's side 4degrees 13'

 

Both in red, according to Kwik fit

 

https://workshop-manuals.com/skoda/fabia-mk1/chassis/technical_data/chassis_specified_values/nominal_values_front_axle/

 

With sports suspension the range is 4° 42' ± 30'  which  I'm assuming VRS has.

Edited 24 May, 2019 by bmbmdmb

[sepulchrave]

Ok, so near side is out a whisker, near side is usually caused by kerbing, it's not bad enough for accident damage.

[Breezy_Pete]

9 hours ago, sepulchrave said:

I'm confused, all the caster measurements look to be within tolerance so I'm unclear what the problem is?

 

Layout of the results printout demonstrating its inbuilt crappiness and tendency to confuse.

[rum4mo]

Here is a link, I hope, to how the Hunter alignment bench is operated and shows how the castor measurement is "made" ie the steering wheel is rotated to give  "X"degrees of "turn" to the front wheels - just for information really, that is all!

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGTHN3G_DR8

[Breezy_Pete]

Embedded for ease of use.

Edited 30 May, 2019 by Wino

[bmbmdmb]

I watched the video. The operator turns the wheel to obtain caster. 

This did not happen in my case, nor previously in the 3 year old alignment. 

I'm going to first try rotating rear wheels for front. The rear are nearly new. This is to rule out poorly worn tyres. If I still have a pull to side then ill tinker with those bolts and adjust the subframe.  Thanks

[bmbmdmb]

I decided in the end to adjust when I saw one of the front bolts marked in green was off centre, like the console had been pushed back. I have got at least a couple of mm maybe more. 

See photo of after. The grey bit/ line s how's the movement I gained. 

It helped with another jack to take weight/ support lightly the console. I managed to wedge wood between brake disc and wheel arch to lever / extend forward to make castor more positive. I'll get alignment checked again and see how it drives and report back.

Ps bolts came away ok, but I used gt85 1hour before attempting to remove bolts.

[bmbmdmb]

Update:

 

After adjusting the caster on front left side by movement of console forward, a small change in caster has occurred, by 0.14degrees. The difference between left and right wheel castor values is now within 0.30 max castor. Probably not worth effort

 

This threw out the toe slightly, which was then readjusted on Hunter alignment system. 

 

BTW the operator did turn wheel out to obtain castor value , as mentioned earlier in posts.

 

 

[bmbmdmb]

The car slightly pulls to left, a slight drift. Having ruled out steering parts, I spun all 4 wheels, whilst jacked up. The rear left caliper I replaced with reconditioned one 3yrs ago is slightly braking the disc. I can hear the brake pads dragging on disc. Probably worse when disc gets warm.  I was never happy with this caliper , but it seems worse than when fitted. In contrast the rear right wheel spins 4 X more than left, almost like spinning a bike wheel. 

 

Could this cause a drift to left,?

 

I had a seized right rear caliper and this didn't alter steering, possibly counteracted by camber of road?

 

The rear right caliper was first replaced with a recon caliper but 3 weeks after it too was seizing. The brand new one TRW  has no issues 

 

QUESTION - just had a look at buying new LH rear caliper. £68 for TRW unpainted, £49 painted on eBay, £44 unpainted eBay . Latter 2 are SAS brand, not heard of them? 

 

Are the eBay calipers likely to be genuine, new? They state they are but who knows?

 

Can anyone confirm the banjo bolt copper washer size? Are they a standard size. I bought some 3yrs ago , but can't seem to find them.

[Tilt]

Could the rear have a handbrake imbalance causing the dragging on the rear left???

 

I do not believe the dragging brake would cause the vehicle to pull to the left tho, imo. Check all tyre pressures...

 

10 hours ago, bmbmdmb said:

Are the eBay calipers likely to be genuine, new? They state they are but who knows?

 

Well, the seller knows.......For the difference I would say buy genuine.......

Where did you get the recon one for the right rear, that failed after 3 weeks???

[bmbmdmb]

1 hour ago, Tilt said:

Where did you get the recon one

Bullseye shop here in Yorkshire. It was better than old one. The old caliper rubber seal had gone soft and letting in dirt to piston. The recon caliper caused disc to still be hotter than opposite side. 

I went recon as the new price was £160mark per caliper. I'd just changed front calipers. 

In this 3week period the price reduced £100 on a new one.

Edited 5 June, 2019 by bmbmdmb