Hi guys/girls,

 

Can anyone with a 1.8/2.0 EA8888 Gen3 engine confirm if they get intermittent misfires at idle with their car? I have a 2014 VRS TSI that suffers from a "heartbeat" intermittently when idling.

I've done some digging online and the consensus seems to be all of them do this -

 

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17553
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22341
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7151935-15-GTI-rough-idle

 

Apparently it's a side effect of direct injection?

 

Here are some of the misfires that get logged at idle:

 

 

These don't cause the CEL to come on as they're below the threshold, however you can definatley feel them!

 

Any input?

 

Edited 21 September, 20196 yr by the_slug

I definitely get this too, wasnt sure if it was normal or just my map. 

 

It settled down a bit after new plugs and coils but has returned.

@Saints92 Are you also seeing misfires being logged in the cars ECU?

You commented on my thread about two weeks ago where I swapped the plugs, which did improve things, but only for two weeks.

 

Edit - Take a look at these posts saint and let me know if this the problem you're seeing -

 

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17553
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22341
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7151935-15-GTI-rough-idle
https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/471816-octavia-14-tsi-bit-lumpy-on-tick-over-when-warm/?tab=comments#comment-5299897
https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/371411-strange-idle-and-engine-shake-with-my-skoda-octavia-vrs-20-tfsi/
https://forums.seatcupra.net/index.php?threads/cupra-290-slight-misfire-on-idle.439049/
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5852677-Cyl-1-misfire-at-idle-only

Edited 21 September, 20196 yr by the_slug

Not all of them do it, Its not something I get on mine or the few I have looked at. Out of interest what petrol do you use?

 

A lot of those threads are North American who do not get the second set of injectors and much of the emissions programming the Euro cars do so it rules swithching injectors out. They do mostly get poor quality petrol to what we generally get here.

 

These engines are very clever, they can achieve perfect stoichiometric combustion right through the rev and load range. It is scary to watch as an AFR of 14.7 is good for combustion but bad for detonation in a lot of situations . The car has a lot of things at its disposal to achieve 14.7. If one of those things is not working well or something else is wrong that means it is working hard to achieve the ideal AFR then it may overshoot and take drastic measures to protect itself.

 

I would be logging the AFR and timing advance during these events. That would tell you a lot about what is going on.

 

The car does prioritise efficient combustion over smooth running, but it normally shouldn't have to.

@flybynite I only use Shell V-power (99RON)

 

As I mentioned in another thread, the problem only manifests intermittently at a cold idle when the engine has moved from the initial warmup RPM of 1200 > 750. Once the RPM hits 750 the misfires on cyclinder 2 start.

I can't be the fuel, it can't be a vacuum leak as that would affect other cylinders, I can't be plugs/coils as they've been replaced, and It can't be carbon buildup as the car only has 27000 miles on it.

 

I'm honestly at a loss. I really feel like my visit to the dealer is a waste of time as they're either not going to be able to recreate the issue, or they're going to say "Yeah, we see the misfires, but can't see a reason for them. Another £100 for investigation please."

 

Any ideas? 😞

@flybynite If I was to try and record the engine RPM/AFR/Timing during warm up and post the video would that maybe assist?

@the_slug

So what Spark Plugs are in and what is the gap?

 

Try Tesco Momentum 99 (99 ron minimum),

It is the same base fuel as Shell V-Power Nitro + as they import as partners  Greenergy & Shell, and has the same detergent just with Royal Dutch Shell it is a secret what.

No harm in trying the cheaper fuel though as it seems to be kinder when used in Mk2 Fabia vRS 1.4 Twinchargers.

& get shot of the Long Life 5w 30 FS III oil, as Borewash that might be as issue with V-Power Nitro +/ Long Life oil is something worth swerving.

@Roottootemoot These are the plugs: https://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Skoda_Octavia_2.0_2015/p/car-parts/regular-service/car-service-parts/spark-plugs/?408440280&1&e114c093efaf73bb3e511fbc26d278ee9a061a61&000301

They come pre-gapped for the engine.

 

I did visually compare the gapping from the VAG branded plugs to the new ones and they looked correct.

Yes they come pregapped and it is basics to check that all 4 are correctly gapped. 

So what were they all at?

 

Not trying to teach Granny to suck eggs, but before looking at bigger issues look at the basics.

Cheap to check things, and often supposed common problems are not Fundamental Design, Manufacturing, or material / component faults.

Edited 22 September, 20196 yr by Roottootemoot

I'll be honest, I didn't use a feeler guage or gapping tool to get the exact number. I can try moving plugs from cylinder 2 into another cylinder. But I'm sceptical that it's the problem seeing as this was occuring on the factory plugs at 27000 miles.

17 hours ago, the_slug said:

@Saints92 Are you also seeing misfires being logged in the cars ECU?

You commented on my thread about two weeks ago where I swapped the plugs, which did improve things, but only for two weeks.

 

Edit - Take a look at these posts saint and let me know if this the problem you're seeing -

 

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17553
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22341
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7151935-15-GTI-rough-idle
https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/471816-octavia-14-tsi-bit-lumpy-on-tick-over-when-warm/?tab=comments#comment-5299897
https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/371411-strange-idle-and-engine-shake-with-my-skoda-octavia-vrs-20-tfsi/
https://forums.seatcupra.net/index.php?threads/cupra-290-slight-misfire-on-idle.439049/
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5852677-Cyl-1-misfire-at-idle-only

 

I get no EML or fault code. Happens about 5-10 minutes into my drive first thing in the morning, not all the time. Sometimes it continues, sometimes it stops.

 

Been run on Tesco momentum since I bought it Feb '18.

 

New plugs, coils and injectors. Hasnt stopped it. Temp sensor readings are perfect when it's doing it.

 

I'm at a loss with it, I'd assume a plug not set right would be more common? I can go a week or so never getting it then it just starts up again. Theres obviously something that's linking the times it happens but I've not found it yet.

I know it’s a different engine, but  with the 1.4 tsi the plug gap does need to be checked on new plugs. I’ve had to set gaps properly on new plugs for mine.

Also on the 1.0/1.2/1.4/1.5 the plugs should be tightened to a specific correct torque. There is a precise thread and a washer on the plug which is designed to align the plug gap in relation to the valves to get correct ignition and plug cooling.

3 minutes ago, the_slug said:

Any ideas? 😞

 

As it is only really one cylinder my guess would be injectors. Most likely the low pressure injector on number 2

 

Happening as you say it does, it will be as the engine goes from direct injection during warm up to manifold injection for normal use at idle

 

I take it the car does not misfire at high load / high rev, only idle.

 

15 minutes ago, the_slug said:

If I was to try and record the engine RPM/AFR/Timing during warm up and post the video would that maybe assist?

 

Not really, it needs a  full VCDS plot to be any use.

 

4 minutes ago, the_slug said:

I'll be honest, I didn't use a feeler guage or gapping tool to get the exact number. I can try moving plugs from cylinder 2 into another cylinder. But I'm sceptical that it's the problem seeing as this was occuring on the factory plugs at 27000 miles.

 

I doubt it is the problem but these engines are quite finely tuned for emiissions, before you go hunting for complicated problems you need the basics done first. You should not put plugs in without at least checking the gap.

 

1 minute ago, Saints92 said:

and injectors

 

Which injectors? FSI, MPI or both sets

@classic & @Roottootemoot It's worth a check I guess.

 

The cars with dealers on Tuesday so I'll wait to see what they say, in the meantime I'll order a gapping tool.

@flybynite

> I take it the car does not misfire at high load / high rev, only idle.

 

Yes, that's correct. It only occurs at idle. Touching the throttle in any way stops the misfire.

Would I be correct in thinking during high load the engine is using DI?

 

Are the port injectors difficult to get to? I really need to make sure this dealership visit counts as getting time off work around this time in the year is very difficult.

Edited 22 September, 20196 yr by the_slug

29 minutes ago, the_slug said:

@flybynite

> I take it the car does not misfire at high load / high rev, only idle.

 

Yes, that's correct. It only occurs at idle. Touching the throttle in any way stops the misfire.

Would I be correct in thinking during high load the engine is using DI?

 

Are the port injectors difficult to get to? I really need to make sure this dealership visit counts as getting time off work around this time in the year is very difficult.

I’ll predict that the dealer says it’s normal and a characteristic of the engine.

That could be a drug dealer or car dealer or the person on the service desk, 

ask to speak with the Master Tech and have him or her tell you it is a characteristic and VW Engineers designed the engine to misfire on tickover.

39 minutes ago, Roottootemoot said:

That could be a drug dealer or car dealer or the person on the service desk, 

ask to speak with the Master Tech and have him or her tell you it is a characteristic and VW Engineers designed the engine to misfire on tickover.

 

Oh I will don't worry. There does seem to be some inconsistency with the information I can gather on this engine. @flybynite doesn't have the problem with his, yet others are reporting the same problem and being told it's normal.

 

Very odd.

Only odd if you have not had much experience with VW Group Main Dealership staff, otherwise like Tom Jones sings, 'It is not unusual'.

They all do it, or never heard of it before. That is the thing they learn in the 1st week at work.

Edited 22 September, 20196 yr by Roottootemoot

26 minutes ago, Roottootemoot said:

Only odd if you have not had much experience with VW Group Main Dealership staff, otherwise like Tom Jones sings, 'It is not unusual'.

They all do it, or never heard of it before. That is the thing they learn in the 1st week at work.

Really fills you with confidence 😞

 

Thanks for your help so far bud. I'll let you know how I get on regardless. I've got a good independent mechanic that I've used in the past for my BMW's which might be able to offer some input if the dealership fob me off.

@flybynite Just out of curiosity, what fuel are you putting in your EA888?

50 minutes ago, the_slug said:

There does seem to be some inconsistency with the information I can gather on this engine.

 

This is one of the problems of internet self-diagnosis, whether it be car problems or medical issues, you make problem fit the symptoms without proper diagnosis.

 

There are many, many causes of this problem, all with a similar result. Some of those you link to have a different problem, they do not have recorded misfires and do not have one specific cylinder causing the problem. 

 

Some have an issue (normally a sensor failure or a bad remap) causing the management system to drag the AFR back to stoic by the scruff of its neck by (to all intents and purposes) cutting the ignition to avoid detonation. This is not your problem, you have an issue on one cylinder that needs diagnosis.

 

The unfortunate fact is issues like this are hard to find and need skilled hands-on diagnosis at a level posessed by few people in dealerships these days.

 

14 minutes ago, the_slug said:

Just out of curiosity, what fuel are you putting in your EA888?

 

I tend to use Shell, sometimes Vpower, sometimes not. depens on the driving I am doing. Runs just as well on either.

3 minutes ago, flybynite said:

 

This is one of the problems of internet self-diagnosis, whether it be car problems or medical issues, you make problem fit the symptoms without proper diagnosis.

 

There are many, many causes of this problem, all with a similar result. Some of those you link to have a different problem, they do not have recorded misfires and do not have one specific cylinder causing the problem. 

 

Some have an issue (normally a sensor failure or a bad remap) causing the management system to drag the AFR back to stoic by the scruff of its neck by (to all intents and purposes) cutting the ignition to avoid detonation. This is not your problem, you have an issue on one cylinder that needs diagnosis.

 

The unfortunate fact is issues like this are hard to find and need skilled hands-on diagnosis at a level posessed by few people in dealerships these days.

 

 

I tend to use Shell, sometimes Vpower, sometimes not. depens on the driving I am doing. Runs just as well on either.

 

Yeah agreed, think I'm clutching at straws with some of those threads.

 

The reason I asked about your fuel is because when I picked the car up 4 months ago the original owner had been running the car on ESSO regular (95RON), and on the drive home I put a tank of ESSO premium in (97RON)

That tank lasted two weeks, no issues what so ever.

 

It's only since moving over to V-POWER that the problem has appeared. Although im 99% sure that's a coincidence. But I guess it can't hurt trying something like Tesco Momentum?

41 minutes ago, the_slug said:

But I guess it can't hurt trying something like Tesco Momentum?

 

The car is built to run on any fuel we get here and most of the way round the world and does so just fine for most people. It won't hurt but is won't be the problem (unless you had a tank of dirty fuel). If it won't run well on bog standard fuel then the car has an issue.

 

If the car is 2014 and you recently bought it, how do you know what has been done to it or that it hasn't been mapped?

16 minutes ago, flybynite said:

 

The car is built to run on any fuel we get here and most of the way round the world and does so just fine for most people. It won't hurt but is won't be the problem (unless you had a tank of dirty fuel). If it won't run well on bog standard fuel then the car has an issue.

 

If the car is 2014 and you recently bought it, how do you know what has been done to it or that it hasn't been mapped?

 

Well, obviously you can never be 100% sure just with a visual inspection, but nothing under the bonnet looks to be messed with or custom. It's about as quick as my friends MK7 GTI. (Granted, that doesn't mean much)

With regards to mapping, that's not something I can check as I don't have the tools. I would assume this is something the dealership would be able to spot (I would hope so anyway)