No dedicated HVAC controls

[J.R.]

50 minutes ago, silver1011 said:

The issue here is we're all old, and older people are more averse to change.

 

My 6 and 9 year old kids can operate my phone, tablet and their own games consoles quicker than anyone else I know, they're all touch screens.

 

 

But not while watching where they are driving, as old as I am and as bad as my vision is after the recent bodged operation I can operate all of the essential controls on my vehicle by feel without taking my eyes from the road.

 

Its taken 90 years of study of ergonomics and continous improvement to get to that situation and its all been thrown away in a few short years.

[Octy0GG]

1 hour ago, silver1011 said:

The issue here is we're all old, and older people are more averse to change.

 

My 6 and 9 year old kids can operate my phone, tablet and their own games consoles quicker than anyone else I know, they're all touch screens.

 

 

I think they'd still struggle to safely operate touchscreen HVAC while driving their new Skoda.

I have also watched youngsters walk into things / walk into each other / walk out in-front of traffic all while using their touch screen devices - I'm sure they are doing a grand job of operating the touch screen device though.

 

Agreed with J.R. - they got in there while I was typing

 

 

Edited 31 August, 2020 by Octy0GG
Agreed with J.R. - they got in there while I was typing

[Octy0GG]

I know it's been said before but for a lesson in driving ergonomics all that current designers need to do is take a good look at a SAAB 900 Classic, take the lessons onboard and apply to their next new design. Compared to current design this would be a monumental advance.

Edited 31 August, 2020 by Octy0GG
correction

[silver1011]

I'm not suggesting that kids aren't able to operate a touch screen without sacrificing attention elsewhere, but even with a physical button your eyes are momentarily taken off the road.

 

The kids can operate a touch screen as intuitively as we do a physical button, so the actual distraction is more or less equal.

[silver1011]

26 minutes ago, Octy0GG said:

This 'auto re-circulation'

 

Three options:

1. My car does not have it.

2. It has been switched off on my car.  (can't see how to switch it on or off)

3. It does not work - at least not for Diesel smoke, roadworks tar stink or agricultural stink.

 

I'm tending towards option 3  but if anyone has another explanation it would be welcome.

 

You might also have thought it would be clever enough to quickly go into re-circulate whenever the screen washers are used - not that unpleasant a smell but fairly strong especially during winter when using full strength screen wash.

 

Car 2016 Octavia III 1.4 Tsi 150 Se Sport Manual

 

My 2011 Superb had it. The button had an 'A' on it...

 

 

It also automatically selected recirculation when reverse gear was engaged, or when the windscreen washers were operated, either with recirculation in auto mode, or turned off.

 

I'm pretty sure our current Kodiaq operates in the same or very similar way. Hopefully the MkIV Octavia too...

[Octy0GG]

3 minutes ago, silver1011 said:

 

My 2011 Superb had it. The button had an 'A' on it...

 

 

It also automatically selected recirculation when reverse gear was engaged, or when the windscreen washers were operated, either with recirculation in auto mode, or turned off.

 

I'm pretty sure our current Kodiaq operates in the same or very similar way. Hopefully the MkIV Octavia too...

Hopefully the MkIV Octavia too...

 

Thank's but I don't think it does - will check to be sure tomorrow.

This picture clearly shows 2 lights on the control - mine just has the re-circ car symbol which lights up when button is pressed.

 

[silver1011]

That's a shame.

 

The sensor did fail on my Superb, I got an error code whenever the car was scanned for faults at its service, perhaps Skoda know the technology isn't as good as it perhaps needs to be.

[J.R.]

2 hours ago, silver1011 said:

I'm not suggesting that kids aren't able to operate a touch screen without sacrificing attention elsewhere, but even with a physical button your eyes are momentarily taken off the road.

 

The kids can operate a touch screen as intuitively as we do a physical button, so the actual distraction is more or less equal.

 

I dont need to take my eye (only one functions) off the road to operate any of the physical controls of my vehicle, to do so would be dangerous, I'm pretty sure that you dont either, maybe to look at what fan speed you have selected but do you look at the gearlever or the pedals when you use them like a learner, do you look for the indicators, headlamp dim/dip or the headlamp switch? - I bet you dont and thats because they are all tactile & differentiated from the others by their shape or location, back in the days of a Jaguar with the row  of rocker switches you probably did need to look at what fuel pump you were selecting.

 

Yes kids can operate a touchscreen intuitively but they would still need to look and look quite carefully to find the required heater control.

 

When I was younger I could drive and read a small scale roadmap between my eyes & the steering wheel even in poor light, it does not mean that I was safe though although I'm sure that I believed that I was, no safer than the kids that cycle with both hands off the handlebars whilst texting and do this for 90% of their journey, just like they do when walking around town and when they graduate to a vehicle it will be the most natural thing in the world for them to do and the car adverts reflect this as if putting their phone onto the infotainment screen makes it any safer for dogs sake!

[silver1011]

Yes, I do need to take my eyes off the road repeatedly. When driving my Skoda Kodiaq...

 

- To check my speed.

- To confirm the secondary trailer light indicator is working when towing.

- To use any of the HVAC controls.

- To use some of the less common steering wheel buttons.

- When using my mirrors.

- When following the sat nav.

- When I sneeze.

 

The list is endless. I believe most drivers take their eyes off the road far more than either they realise or are prepared to admit.

 

Moving HVAC controls from a physical button to a touchscreen will affect me, it will likely mean I'll take longer to find it. But it won't have the same effect on my kids, that's my point.

[PetrolDave]

I ordered my previous car (an Audi RS4) with the auto-recirc option but found it very often didn't work when we needed it - the sensor only detects unburnt hydrocarbons (i.e. unburnt fuel) not diesel smoke, fumes from road resurfacing, etc.

 

So while the auto-recirc is better than nothing (it was a cheap option) I found over the 10 years I owned it that I would use the manual recirc button very often - this I believe shows that having easy & simple access to the recirc button is something that I, and many others I suspect, regard as essential - something which the multiple buttons presses required on the Octavia IV fails to provide.

 

IMHO it's not the touch screen that's the problem it's that the recirc button is not on the top level and ALWAYS accessible.

[cheezemonkhai]

13 hours ago, silver1011 said:

I'm not suggesting that kids aren't able to operate a touch screen without sacrificing attention elsewhere, but even with a physical button your eyes are momentarily taken off the road.

 

The kids can operate a touch screen as intuitively as we do a physical button, so the actual distraction is more or less equal.

I think the German court judgements I linked too confirm it’s a bad idea.

 

I can use a touch screen intuitively, as can SWMBO , but both think it’s dangerous whilst driving. 
 

Plus phones have hepatic feedback and cars don’t.

[J.R.]

3 hours ago, silver1011 said:

Yes, I do need to take my eyes off the road repeatedly. When driving my Skoda Kodiaq...

 

- To check my speed.

- To confirm the secondary trailer light indicator is working when towing.

- To use any of the HVAC controls.

- To use some of the less common steering wheel buttons.

- When using my mirrors.

- When following the sat nav.

- When I sneeze.

 

The list is endless. I believe most drivers take their eyes off the road far more than either they realise or are prepared to admit.

 

Moving HVAC controls from a physical button to a touchscreen will affect me, it will likely mean I'll take longer to find it. But it won't have the same effect on my kids, that's my point.

 

3 hours ago, silver1011 said:

Yes, I do need to take my eyes off the road repeatedly. When driving my Skoda Kodiaq...

 

- To check my speed.

- To confirm the secondary trailer light indicator is working when towing.

- To use any of the HVAC controls.

- To use some of the less common steering wheel buttons.

- When using my mirrors.

- When following the sat nav.

- When I sneeze.

 

The list is endless. I believe most drivers take their eyes off the road far more than either they realise or are prepared to admit.

 

Moving HVAC controls from a physical button to a touchscreen will affect me, it will likely mean I'll take longer to find it. But it won't have the same effect on my kids, that's my point.

Point taken & well made.

 

Regarding the previous I never said that I dont take my eyes (eye) off the road, I said that I dont need to to use any of the physical controls and that includes the heating controls on my current car with a simple non Climatronic system, twist left know for heat up & down, centre know for fan speed up & down & RH knob to direct air. I cant actually make out the legends without changing glasses so I really do use them by feel, I think I did have to glance at the various buttons on the previous Climatronic.

 

The indicator mark is on the side of the rotary control knobs & tiny, impossible for me to see so I decided to extend it across the front face with paint, not realising that the front face does not turn 🙁

[silver1011]

21 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

I think the German court judgements I linked too confirm it’s a bad idea.

 

I can use a touch screen intuitively, as can SWMBO , but both think it’s dangerous whilst driving. 
 

Plus phones have hepatic feedback and cars don’t.

 

I'm not sure if why touching a screen intuitively is dangerous then doing the same with a physical button isn't. If there are multiple menu's to select through then that's bad design, not a fault of the chosen method. On the MkIV Octavia you first press a physical button to bring up the HVAC options on screen, then touch the air recirculation icon, so two presses instead of one (i.e. more of a distraction).

 

Depending on whether the individual needs to take their eyes off the road to touch/push them is what determines the level of risk.

 

Part of the reason they're becoming more popular, as with all developing technologies is that haptic feedback won't be far off in cars. It might be suggested that it's already here, my Kodiaq recognises when my hand is approaching the screen and makes certain selections appear without touching the screen. There is also a setting that allows an audible confirmation that the icon has been successfully selected.

 

The issue of pressing a touch screen icon versus a physical button isn't the issue, it's how the manufacturers design their systems to ensure their operation is as simplistic or importantly intuitive as the physical button, this is the challenge.

[cheezemonkhai]

Physical buttons have texture which you can differentiate between on a button or across multiples or your position in a row. Plus individual buttons have individual telltale lights.

 

A touch screen has no physical feedback as it’s all smooth. You HAVE to look away to find the button, press the button and then confirm the press.

 

Regardless of the touchscreen point, VW messed up.

 

 For example front parking sensors are pressed when stationary, not in motion. why didn’t they put that on the touch screen instead?

 

Why not have a single temperature wheel/multifunction wheel, then for dual zone the touchscreen can be done by the passenger?

 

In the mk3, the low button placement wasn’t great, but this is worse.

 

Why not at least add it to the MFD so things can be set via wheel button?

 

As for hepatic feedback, that refers to vibrations which confirm actions such as the press of a button or your finger being over a button, not bringing up a hidden sub menu. 
 

The latter could be argued as more distracting.

 

Even if we accept hepatic was almost there in cars... that’s not much consolation to those who almost didn’t die on the road because of a distracted driver.

 

Sorry, but until it’s proven safe and there is minimal difference between common tasks whilst using both systems, then I think it should be banned along the mobile phone vein.

Edited 1 September, 2020 by cheezemonkhai
Added a comment

[silver1011]

5 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Point taken & well made.

 

Regarding the previous I never said that I dont take my eyes (eye) off the road, I said that I dont need to to use any of the physical controls and that includes the heating controls on my current car with a simple non Climatronic system, twist left know for heat up & down, centre know for fan speed up & down & RH knob to direct air. I cant actually make out the legends without changing glasses so I really do use them by feel, I think I did have to glance at the various buttons on the previous Climatronic.

 

The indicator mark is on the side of the rotary control knobs & tiny, impossible for me to see so I decided to extend it across the front face with paint, not realising that the front face does not turn 🙁

 

When buying my Kodiaq, one of the biggest worries or concerns I had was that the spec of Kodiaq I wanted came with the Columbus head unit only. At the time this was one of Skoda's first headunits that was all-screen, no physical buttons at all.

 

The lower grades of Kodiaq with the Bolero headunit still had two knobs to turn the unit on and off, to adjust the volume and scroll through various settings. I feared I would miss these terribly.

 

I did at first, I struggled to hold my arm / hand / finger steady enough whilst driving to make the on-screen selections confidently, but since then I have found it has become easier. Part of the problem is that the key selections (i.e. volume and menus) are all at the furthest point away on the screen. A bad design, one optimised for left hand drive, so maybe not so much the actual technology, but perhaps how it has been designed and implemented?

 

It has been a while since I've driven a car without automatic climate control, but I think even then I had to look down to adjust the fan speed, temperature and the direction of the air flow. No doubt the longer you own a car or the more you drive it the easier it becomes to make adjustments intuitively without having to look at them. I never seem to master it very well.

 

The German court case will be interesting, but I do feel that there is a greater resistance to change, especially regarding technology as we get older.

[silver1011]

1 minute ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Physical buttons have texture which you can differentiate between on a button or across multiples or your position in a row. Plus individual buttons have individual telltale lights.

 

That's a fair point, but in reality this makes no difference to me, I still need to look down to identify the button / rotary knob.

 

For me this all comes down to the increased risk of being distracted, which for me at least isn't overly influenced by using a touch screen versus a physical button as long at the menu's are intuitive and not overly complex.

 

I also believe that the younger generation will find it even easier.

[cheezemonkhai]

Just now, silver1011 said:

 

That's a fair point, but in reality this makes no difference to me, I still need to look down to identify the button / rotary knob.

 

For me this all comes down to the increased risk of being distracted, which for me at least isn't overly influenced by using a touch screen versus a physical button as long at the menu's are intuitive and not overly complex.

 

I also believe that the younger generation will find it even easier.

Updated the previous comment while you were typing your reply out.

 

Just add that I grew up with tech, and yes most of the issue is poor UI design, but the physical touch requires a short glance and tactile feedback.

 

Car touchscreens just are not ready for how they are being used yet.

[J.R.]

I'm sure that if I still had normal vision I would probably glance down to use the rotary buttons and to see what setting I had moved them to, I cant without endangering other road users so I have learned to do it by feel, something we all do with many every day tasks be it doing up a watchstrap, buttons, zips etc etc.

 

Traditional controls have git better & better ergonomics over the years, the important things to look at are on the speedo binnacle so people with normal vision can still keep an eye on the road, important controls are on the column stalk or steering wheel, light switch cloes to hand and tactile so it can be used in the dark, heater controls also tactile but further away etc etc.

 

Given that most drivers will have their social media or satnav on the display to use any of the heating controls must need several touches and changes of menu.

 

I am confident that common sense will eventually prevail, even the young become old one day!

[Ootohere]

Skoda are not aiming for those with short arms / reach.

Not even short hand typists.

 

'Simply clever' marketing crap, with the Co-drivers or as internationally known when not taking part in motor sport events just front seat passengers.

"Hands off and leave alone!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 1 September, 2020 by e-Roottoot

[crisdevis]

Re-circulation physical button is missing but you can create it as a shortcut on the LCD screen.

[PetrolDave]

14 hours ago, crisdevis said:

Re-circulation physical button is missing but you can create it as a shortcut on the LCD screen.

I think many people would be happy if you could post a short How-To guide 

[crisdevis]

Sure. It is in the manual.

 

[OctaviaMK4]

I have it like that, but again it is annoying. 

Clean Air/Recirculation.  Every time I stand the car in the morning. 

[cheezemonkhai]

Thread revival, but due to some potential issues with a car on order we had a look at some other options so we know where we are ahead of the outcome of an open question.

 

We tried an Audi e-tron and it had a lower touchscreen with haptic feedback. A big improvement over a touchscreen without it, but still not a patch on a physical button. You had to look down and find it and look until your hand was in the right place.

 

Honestly I think it's a huge mistake from a safety point of view to go to touchscreen for many of these controls.

[Jim2015]

Use the voice control to adjust the heater settings.