Torsion Beam rear end Estate handling

[MC Bodge]

On a recent trip to Snowdonia, on surprisingly pleasantly quiet roads I was able to give the car a bit of exercising (within the bounds of wife tolerance) 

 

Whilst the steering feel isn't the best (no feedback) and  handling is OK when pressing on, I did notice that the back end rolls a bit disconcertingly even with gentle acceleration on a fast sweeper - despite the hard rear- and the car doesn't feel sure-footed. The 1.4TSI 150 warrants a better chassis. 

 

(I do now have the tyres at 30-31psi to counter the terrible ride, but that didn't appear to be the issue).

 

I suppose that a rear ARB would help, but wouldn't do anything for the jiggling and jarring over small bumps. 

 

It is on drives like that where my Mk3 and Mk4 Mondeos are missed.... 

 

Edited 5 January, 2020 by MC Bodge

[flybynite]

2 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

I did notice that the back end rolls a bit disconcertingly even with gentle acceleration on a fast sweeper

 

I found exactly the same. The rear ARB is quite undersized on the Octavia, mine has the multilink but still had a 16mm RARB against the standard 24mm FARB (which is the same as the Golf 7R)  It is meant to leave it biased to understeer but I think it harms the handling even on an empty car.

 

Putting a 22mm RARB on from the Golf improves matters a lot, still leaving a slight bias to understeer. On standard springs I would be wary about upgrading above 24mm/22mm as the ARBs can override the springs. But 24mm front and 22mm rear works very well on standard springs. It is not going to go round corners like a Ford or BMW but it cures that particular problem.

[Ju1ian1001]

12 minutes ago, flybynite said:

 

I found exactly the same. The rear ARB is quite undersized on the Octavia, mine has the multilink but still had a 16mm RARB against the standard 24mm FARB (which is the same as the Golf 7R)  It is meant to leave it biased to understeer but I think it harms the handling even on an empty car.

 

Putting a 22mm RARB on from the Golf improves matters a lot, still leaving a slight bias to understeer. On standard springs I would be wary about upgrading above 24mm/22mm as the ARBs can override the springs. But 24mm front and 22mm rear works very well on standard springs. It is not going to go round corners like a Ford or BMW but it cures that particular problem.

Problem is the non 4x4 and non vrs spec cars didn't get multi link rear suspension or rear anti-bars, we make do with just the rear torsion beam, i'm not saying one can't be fitted (anything is possible) but would need some re-engineering done to to floor and some mounts fabricated onto the torsion beam. the pick points for the multi link rear suspension aren't even there to fit that. So ours torsion beamed cars are always going to feel a bit disconcerting on fast sweeping corners im afraid.

Edited 5 January, 2020 by Ju1ian1001

[flybynite]

3 minutes ago, Ju1ian1001 said:

Problem is the non 4x4 and non vrs spec cars didn't get multi link rear suspension or rear anti-bars,

 

Yep forgot they are not fitted to the Skoda torsion beam, only dealt with multilink cars recently. Only way to improve that then would be the Golf springs tried by a few people a while ago.

[MC Bodge]

For just bimbling about the handling is fine, although the ride around town is crap. 

 

It is such a shame that the car is fitted with such crap rear suspension. Our old Fiesta has a similar setup and is far superior. 

 

I have had the car almost a year and just find that I cannot get attached to it.

Edited 5 January, 2020 by MC Bodge

[MarkyG82]

Neuspeed make a bar for the mqb torsion beam. 

Neuspeed make a bar for the mqb torsion beam. 

[J.R.]

What on earth is the point of adding an anti-roll bar to a torsion beam axle?

 

The beam itself acts in torsion giving roll stiffness in the same manner as an anti-roll bar, albeit one that is already far too stiff but any more flex and the thing would fracture prematurely.

[*JP*]

52 minutes ago, J.R. said:

What on earth is the point of adding an anti-roll bar to a torsion beam axle?

 

The beam itself acts in torsion giving roll stiffness in the same manner as an anti-roll bar, albeit one that is already far too stiff but any more flex and the thing would fracture prematurely.

So all the reputable tuning companies that supply rear arbs for this type of suspension don’t know what they are about?

 

This type of modification will reduce understeer and add some steering feel.
It won’t make the ride more comfortable but it will do the above,I know since I’ve done it.

 

 

[fabdavrav]

6 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

 The 1.4TSI 150 warrants a better chassis. 

 

 

 

MK7 Golf hatch & estate got the multilink rear...which is why I got it...

 

In MK3 Octavia only 1.8lt L&K, & all AWD, & VRS versions got the multilink...

 

It can be retro fitted just buy the whole rear setup from a crashed (front end damage) & swap over..thats they whole point of MQB...hell even the MK6 Golf people did it to...& people have done it to MK7 Golf & even swapped over the whole AWD & 2lt engine from an R into an estate..

 

earlier thread here on this very topic..

 

 

[Ju1ian1001]

1 hour ago, fabdavrav said:

 

MK7 Golf hatch & estate got the multilink rear...which is why I got it...

 

In MK3 Octavia only 1.8lt L&K, & all AWD, & VRS versions got the multilink...

 

It can be retro fitted just buy the whole rear setup from a crashed (front end damage) & swap over..thats they whole point of MQB...hell even the MK6 Golf people did it to...& people have done it to MK7 Golf & even swapped over the whole AWD & 2lt engine from an R into an estate..

 

earlier thread here on this very topic..

 

 

O.k it's possible and yes people have done it, but it's not as simple as buying a front damaged car and swapping the rear over, the pick up points are there for the rear radius arms but not there for the lower rear control link or the rear upper control links and would need to be cut of the rear of the damaged car and welded onto the rear of the torsion beam model, if measurements are even slight wrong then all the toe in and toe out, camber and castor would never line up or adjust properly. Incidently the torsion beam runs right accross where the upper control link mount locations would be, but they are not. Not a very easy job, if you want multi link rear suspension easiest thing to do is buy an L & K or a VRS.

[MC Bodge]

57 minutes ago, Ju1ian1001 said:

O.k it's possible and yes people have done it, but it's not as simple as buying a front damaged car and swapping the rear over, the pick up points are there for the rear radius arms but not there for the lower rear control link or the rear upper control links and would need to be cut of the rear of the damaged car and welded onto the rear of the torsion beam model, if measurements are even slight wrong then all the toe in and toe out, camber and castor would never line up or adjust properly. Incidently the torsion beam runs right accross where the upper control link mount locations would be, but they are not. Not a very easy job, if you want multi link rear suspension easiest thing to do is buy an L & K or a VRS.

It doesn't seem worth it.

 

Had the Focus Estate (with IRS, of course) been a bit bigger, I'd have bought one. I may well end up with one in the near future. 

 

I half wish I'd bought a late Mk4 Mondeo Titanium X, although I wanted a petrol, and the TSI is a great engine. 

Edited 5 January, 2020 by MC Bodge

[classic]

19 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

On a recent trip to Snowdonia, on surprisingly pleasantly quiet roads I was able to give the car a bit of exercising (within the bounds of wife tolerance) 

 

Whilst the steering feel isn't the best (no feedback) and  handling is OK when pressing on, I did notice that the back end rolls a bit disconcertingly even with gentle acceleration on a fast sweeper - despite the hard rear- and the car doesn't feel sure-footed. The 1.4TSI 150 warrants a better chassis. 

 

(I do now have the tyres at 30-31psi to counter the terrible ride, but that didn't appear to be the issue).

 

I suppose that a rear ARB would help, but wouldn't do anything for the jiggling and jarring over small bumps. 

 

It is on drives like that where my Mk3 and Mk4 Mondeos are missed.... 

 

Ok, I’ll bite the bait. I’ve driven mine across France, Italy and Switzerland twice and don’t find the ride terrible or the handling poor.

You have clearly bought the wrong car for your driving needs.

[MC Bodge]

50 minutes ago, classic said:

Ok, I’ll bite the bait. I’ve driven mine across France, Italy and Switzerland twice and don’t find the ride terrible or the handling poor.

You have clearly bought the wrong car for your driving needs.

That's fine. Each to their own. 

 

I'm comparing my car with a series of vehicles I've driven over the past 20 years. The chassis is better than the Octavia Mk1 vRs that I had (and the K11 Micra and Mk1 Fabia my wife had), but inferior to the various Fords (non-sporty Fiesta, Focus, Mondeos) I have owned and rented. I would say that the Insignia rentals I've had drive better too, as did a Fiat 500x holiday rental. 

 

The Mondeo estates I had performed well everywhere, from Autobahn to Alpine passes to Lakeland twisties. They also drove similarly lightly or fully laden, rather than the back end becoming a bit wayward. 

 

The 1.4TSI is a cracking engine, let down by the steering feel, ride and handling. 99% of people will probably find it adequate so the extra development of chassis wouldn't be cost effective for VAG/Skoda. It's a cheap car, I know. 

Edited 6 January, 2020 by MC Bodge

[fabdavrav]

12 hours ago, Ju1ian1001 said:

 the pick up points are there for the rear radius arms but not there for the lower rear control link or the rear upper control links and would need to be cut of the rear of the damaged car and welded onto the rear of the torsion beam model, 

 

 

Nope...only the main "trailing arm" (Item No.2) hangs from the body... those other suspension items hang from the rear subframe....& that only requires 4 bolt holes....

 

https://nemigaparts.com/cat_spares/etka/skoda/oct/753/505050/

 

ETKA shows the only difference between the main body shells as Panoramic roof window, hatch, estate, & what holes are cut for the roof antennas...

 

EDIT....

 

& then ETKA contradicts itself......

 

https://nemigaparts.com/cat_spares/etka/skoda/oct/753/803200/

 

Items No. 12, 13, 23 have different versions...

PR codes

"0N1" for torsion beam.

"0N4" for multilink...

 

I've double checked the MK7 Golf estate (my car) & it does not have different items..so the Mk7 Golf with its MQB (the same platform as MK3 Octavia)...will take the swap...& the Octavia won't!!...

 

VAG & their stupid reasoning!!

Edited 6 January, 2020 by fabdavrav

[MarkyG82]

Plus there are changes to the brake lines and maybe some other wiring/plumbing for ABS systems etc.  I did look into it a while back but quickly gave up.  Then started looking into a Quattro transplant from TT to beetle which apparently needs rear floor mods but do-able.

[fabdavrav]

3 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

Plus there are changes to the brake lines and maybe some other wiring/plumbing for ABS systems etc.  I did look into it a while back but quickly gave up.  Then started looking into a Quattro transplant from TT to beetle which apparently needs rear floor mods but do-able.

 

I've just double checked ETKA...& edited the above post...its a NO GO...

[gregoir]

I have a long memory of VW group cars. My Mk3 GL Golf had a very dicey back end with sudden lift off oversteer on tight bends when the suspension was compressed. My 1.4tsi Combi is quite acceptable in that respect. Just a little wriggle in my experience. 

Edited 6 January, 2020 by gregoir

[MC Bodge]

1 hour ago, gregoir said:

I have a long memory of VW group cars. My Mk3 GL Golf had a very dicey back end with sudden lift off oversteer on tight bends when the suspension was compressed. My 1.4tsi Combi is quite acceptable in that respect. Just a little wriggle in my experience. 

It isn't terrible. It's quite "safe". It just behaves a little oddly as the back rolls. It doesn't hold a consistent line through a sweeping bend in the way that my Fords did/do. Mk1 Octavia vRS was similar, from memory. 

Edited 6 January, 2020 by MC Bodge

[iriches]

There's a good article explaining torsion beam suspension and its effective built-in anti-roll bar properties here:

 

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_113301/article.html

 

As it says - too stiff at the rear and you can induce either lift-off/trailing throttle oversteer and/or the rear jumping sideways if you hit a bump.

 

My 1.4 TSI estate already seems a bit prone to the back-end reacting badly to mid-corner bumps - so I'm not too sure what it would be like were I to stiffen it further.   I was aware that I wasn't buying the VRS - so it's not too much of any issue - but I agree that the ride comfort/noise is pretty disappointing for a non-sporting family car.  It's probably my biggest gripe with the car.

 

 

[Ecomatt]

2 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

It isn't terrible. It's quite "safe". It just behaves a little oddly as the back rolls. It doesn't hold a consistent line through a sweeping bend in the way that my Fords did/do. Mk1 Octavia vRS was similar, from memory. 

Keep the car balanced on the throttle through the corner and the car should not roll. Mid corner lift or braking will unsettle the rear end and affect the cars balance.

[MC Bodge]

3 minutes ago, Ecomatt said:

Keep the car balanced on the throttle through the corner and the car should not roll. Mid corner lift or braking will unsettle the rear end and affect the cars balance.

Cheers. I'm aware of all that, from cars and motorbikes. It appears to be a combination of rear roll and lack of consistent steering feel at different steering angles. My other cars have not felt like this. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

 

I'm comparing my car with a series of vehicles I've driven over the past 20 years. The chassis is better than the Octavia Mk1 vRs that I had (and the K11 Micra and Mk1 Fabia my wife had), but inferior to the various Fords (non-sporty Fiesta, Focus, Mondeos) I have owned and rented. I would say that the Insignia rentals I've had drive better too, as did a Fiat 500x holiday rental. 

 

The Mondeo estates I had performed well everywhere, from Autobahn to Alpine passes to Lakeland twisties. They also drove similarly lightly or fully laden, rather than the back end becoming a bit wayward. 

 

The 1.4TSI is a cracking engine, let down by the steering feel, ride and handling. 99% of people will probably find it adequate so the extra development of chassis wouldn't be cost effective for VAG/Skoda. It's a cheap car, I know. 

 

Very fair of you to say so and you acknowledge it's no VRS. The issue I'd raise is something many people are guilty of - unfair comparison. I only drove a few Mk4 rental Mondeos but owned a couple of Focus and one sporty Fiesta ( only for a year ) and I agree, these are great handling cars. But to be fair, they're pretty much on their own in that respect, or at least at that price point - you're comaparing the Octavia with the very best.

 

Where your comparison is unfair is that whilst the Fords are great at handling, they're probably one of the worst cars I've owned when it comes to uneaven road surface or pot holes - talk about crashing thru pot holes! At times I thought the suspension had collapsed. I was on very friendly terms with my chiropractor and dentist when I owned those Fords. The point is you can have a car that excels at one thing ( at least not without suspension wizardry) but if I were to own a car for all round comfort, then after a change of the factory fitted tyres, the Octavia is mighty impressive.

 

And just to correct a few comments from above:

 

21 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

 

MK7 Golf hatch & estate got the multilink rear...which is why I got it...

 

 

Mk7 Golf is just like the Octavia - torsion beam on lesser models multi-link on higher end. 

 

19 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

Had the Focus Estate (with IRS, of course) been a bit bigger, I'd have bought one. I may well end up with one in the near future.

 

Watch out if it's the latest Focus because just like Octavia, torsion beam on the lesser models, multi-link on higher end.

 

 

[logiclee]

For me it's the worst of both worlds.

 

The best setups are supple with road imperfections but have little roll and predictability in corners.

 

The Mk3 with torsion beam feels very firm as it transmits road imperfections into the cabin and crashes over potholes. Yet push on and there's too much roll and the rear end will skip mid corner.  It's poor and as a Skoda fan with 13 purchases that's not easy to say but it is.

 

Lee

 

 

Edited 6 January, 2020 by logiclee

[Ju1ian1001]

If i remember rightly, the MK3 octavia was the first of the VAG cars with the MQB platform so were probably the guinea pig, hence why most of the mid to top of the range MK7 golfs have the multi link set up on the back, Just my personal theory.

 

I don't find the ride and handling that bad, and south east London does have some very very bad roads.

[MC Bodge]

2 hours ago, Scot5 said:

 

Very fair of you to say so and you acknowledge it's no VRS. The issue I'd raise is something many people are guilty of - unfair comparison. I only drove a few Mk4 rental Mondeos but owned a couple of Focus and one sporty Fiesta ( only for a year ) and I agree, these are great handling cars. But to be fair, they're pretty much on their own in that respect, or at least at that price point - you're comaparing the Octavia with the very best.

 

Where your comparison is unfair is that whilst the Fords are great at handling, they're probably one of the worst cars I've owned when it comes to uneaven road surface or pot holes - talk about crashing thru pot holes! At times I thought the suspension had collapsed. I was on very friendly terms with my chiropractor and dentist when I owned those Fords. The point is you can have a car that excels at one thing ( at least not without suspension wizardry) but if I were to own a car for all round comfort, then after a change of the factory fitted tyres, the Octavia is mighty impressive.

 

And just to correct a few comments from above:

 

 

Mk7 Golf is just like the Octavia - torsion beam on lesser models multi-link on higher end. 

 

 

Watch out if it's the latest Focus because just like Octavia, torsion beam on the lesser models, multi-link on higher end.

 

 

My Mk4 Mondeo Estate on non "sports" suspension  16" wheels rode (and handled, despite the bulk and mass) far, far better than the Mk3 Octavia estate and kept the wheels in contact with the road on challenging, undulating surfaces. Various people commented on what a good car it was. 

 

The Mk5/6 (mid '00s) Fiesta Zetec also rides better than the Mk3 Octavia, with a shorter, smaller body and a torsion beam rear. It goes without saying that it handles very well, even as an old car. 

Edited 6 January, 2020 by MC Bodge