21 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

One slight correction. The thermostat starts to open. I mean it is a gradual process.

The rest is OK.

I stand corrected. But the bottom line is that there is probably nothing wrong with the cooling system in D.FYLAKTOS' Felicia.

 

- JAMES

On 02/03/2020 at 18:27, JAMES399 said:

Looking at the diagram that RicardoM posted, it looks like what is happening is just normal operation.

 

As the engine warms, the temp gauge sensor (which is on the engine block side of the cooling system)  makes the gauge read higher and higher until it reaches 93C. 

 

I don't believe that you really have a problem.

 

- JAMES

 

Mr James, after 20 years of using my Felicia i can not believe that what i see the last months is ''normal'' because according to this for 19,5 years i was 'wrong''?

For 19,5 years the needle was rising slowly and steady, when reached the 91 C was staying there for few seconds and then the fan was starting working.I have a steady route from house to my job so every time the procedure was the same.

 

Yesterday i changed the the thermostat with an ''old style'' original Skoda as they told me and guess what happened? when i departure for work the needle started this up and down movement and the gauge showed 100 'C (this is not normal) and inside the cabin heat started to coming although the heater was Off.

I was in panic...i turned the heat to On and prayed for the traffic light to open so i can accelerate in open road so the needle will drop back in 80 C.

 

Why suddenly the coolant in the upper part of RicardoM's picture gets so hot for the first minutes? it's not 91 or 93 'C but few days back was 95 and now 100 C, this is NO good !

For some unknown reason the coolant gets hot very fast for the first minutes,it's not the slow uprising movement that we all now,it gets crazy and simultaneously i feel heat and coolant smell on the cabin.

When the thermostat is full open the car works as it should be but every single day the first minutes are awful for me and for my wife,nobody can stand the smell of ''burning coolant'' and compromise with the idea that this will happens every single day.

@D.FYLAKTOS - The only way the scenario you describe could be credible other than a mechanical failure that you're not looking for because you're busy blaming the fault on a sensor (and I'm not looking for because I'm on the far side of the continent) would be if the specific heat of the coolant in your car suddenly changes at specific temperatures!

Let me get this clear,
I DO NOT HAVE A THERMOSTAT INSTALLED IN MY CAR FOR THE LAST 3 YEARS.
Now when was it the last time you changed the rad and-or flushed and cleaned the cooling system.
If I were you I would remove the thermostat for a test.
If you blindly change parts then you are never going to diagnose the issue ever.
You may fix it by pure coincidence (i am guilty of that) but you will never know what really cured it.
If the car behaves the same WITHOUT a thermostat (free flowing coolant) the I would say check - replace the rad and also check for foreign materials in the cooling system.
The fellys cooling system is so marginal that even now in winter the car would have reached operating temperature within 10 minutes without a thermostat so i dont really bother.
For me and from my other felly expirience fellys are better to be run cold than hot.
 

23 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

Why suddenly the coolant in the upper part of RicardoM's picture gets so hot for the first minutes?

You have changed the thermostat and the problem got worse. So here's the main culprit.

Borrowing @RicardoM's diagram without permission (please forgive me), but this hose with my red arrow pointing at it may be important in the context of this thread.

Check for blockage in the hose, but also at the points it connects to.

When the thermostat is closed, it still needs to be exposed to some flow, in order to properly sense the coolant temperature and be affected by it.  If this hose isn't flowing, I think that sensing will be slow.

 

21 hours ago, KenONeill said:

@D.FYLAKTOS - The only way the scenario you describe could be credible other than a mechanical failure that you're not looking for because you're busy blaming the fault on a sensor (and I'm not looking for because I'm on the far side of the continent)

 

would be if the specific heat of the coolant in your car suddenly changes at specific temperatures!

 

Thermostat sensors with Yellow ring NEVER worked good in my Felicia,2 times i have tested them in the past and always i had the same problem (the needle was rising very fast reaching 95-100 'C)

the employee on a VW group store insist that they are the same with ones with Blue ring but my instinct and small experience says ''NO" that's why i bought an expensive 6U0919501B Genuine VW-Audi-Skoda thermostat sensor with blue ring.

 

Checking my notes i found something suspicious,i had Wurth G11 blue coolant and due to so many changes (radiator fan switches-thermostat sensors) i lost coolant and back in the country where i was i could found only Motul Inugel which also is G11 blue and add a bottle.

I am not sure that i have done the right thing,maybe there is a kind of chemical reaction between them,for sure my coolant has not consistency as it was in the past.

 

41 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

You have changed the thermostat and the problem got worse. So here's the main culprit.

 

My Felicia had the ''Old style'' thermostat from the factory,after some years (as usual) the plastics broke and the thermostat stuck

i have change it with a same and after some years the same (well known) problem occurred so i replaced him with a ''New style'' which here called ''Metallic''

The manager of a Skoda parts store insist that this one does not work properly so i put again the previous BUT here is the great mistake: the New and the Old although have a plastic housing their triangle base (to the block side) isn't identical that's why the ''Old'' never worked properly on the ''New'' thermostat base!

 

@Wino  : My thought too,i checked that spot if something restricts the flow and i added a 20mm piece of hose which is 1mm larger than the original.

 

@Thefeliciahacker: I am afraid to do this,i think i will have a huge fuel consumption and no heater.

 

My final plan is: remove completely the old coolant (which basically is from 2 brands) and when drains i will add distilled water plus HEPU P900 G11 coolant which says in the label is made for older models (VAG TL 774C)

install the new genuine thermostat sensor (blue ring)

keep the ''New style'' thermostat

make a volatilization

and i think that will be the end of that sad story.

 

5 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

i checked that spot

Did you check all the other coolant hoses and connections into and out of the intake manifold? I'm not familiar with the exact details, but if any of those connections are restricted or blocked it may affect the thermostat even though that nearest hose/junctions is not the problem.

2 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

i will add distilled water plus HEPU P900 G11 coolant which says in the label is made for older models (VAG TL 774C)

Forget about G11 blue coolant. That was good back in the days Felicia was manufactured. Meanwhile new and better coolant types (G12 pink) are on the market. They supersede the properties of G11. Flush the system thoroughly and add a 50/50 G12 coolant solution.

 

PS

You have the tendency to look for perfection in every minute detail. Not only that you will not achieve it, but you will have a very stressful life. Some of us tried to make you relax but you didn't listen. Your main argument is that the car worked in the past as you liked. Yeah, but it worked using other parts that don't exist anymore today. Even so called "original" parts are lower quality. Moreover, your entire dilemma is based on the indication of the temperature coolant gauge. That instrument has the tendency to drift in time (we're talking about a >20 years car...!) not to mention the quality of the PCB that I've mentioned many times. I say you are chasing the wind.

3 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

I am afraid to do this,i think i will have a huge fuel consumption and no heater

Just for a test I mean. 

In order to eliminate the thermostat out of the equation 

22 hours ago, Wino said:

Did you check all the other coolant hoses and connections into and out of the intake manifold? I'm not familiar with the exact details, but if any of those connections are restricted or blocked it may affect the thermostat even though that nearest hose/junctions is not the problem.

 

As far as my hand could reach and squeeze i found no problem.

In my Felicia the diagram is not as the above,the hose before the thermostat is connected to the heater (pink line) as you can see in the attachment.

 

20 hours ago, RicardoM said:

Forget about G11 blue coolant. That was good back in the days Felicia was manufactured. Meanwhile new and better coolant types (G12 pink) are on the market. They supersede the properties of G11. Flush the system thoroughly and add a 50/50 G12 coolant solution.

 

PS

You have the tendency to look for perfection in every minute detail. Not only that you will not achieve it, but you will have a very stressful life. Some of us tried to make you relax but you didn't listen. Your main argument is that the car worked in the past as you liked. Yeah, but it worked using other parts that don't exist anymore today. Even so called "original" parts are lower quality. Moreover, your entire dilemma is based on the indication of the temperature coolant gauge. That instrument has the tendency to drift in time (we're talking about a >20 years car...!) not to mention the quality of the PCB that I've mentioned many times. I say you are chasing the wind.

 

According to a countryman Aristotle, the Man has to know WHY something happened and not just standing looking it while happens.

Keep in mind that i was born in the 60's and as a young in 70's-80's we had the ''ask to learn'' system because there were not magazines-books-internet etc about repairs so it's a ''stance of life' for us the Greeks to search for the reason of any problem.

I read all the comments and take them seriously but i can not stay calm when 2 gauges (one in the dashboard and one in my console ) shown 100 'C and the radiator fan is not working and for sure i can not compromise with the idea that this will happens every day at cold start as long as i have my Trusty.

Yes there is a ''downfall'' in our life and in items but the suddenly changes and ''take it as is'' is not acceptable from me if i don't know the reason not the cause because this is opportunistic (by chance).

 

As for the G12, i am not a mechanic nor a chemist but i think the ''metal'' of Favorit and Felicia is not like the Fabia or Octavia, i have used G12 once but according to the factory and the Haynes manual i must use G11

I have read recommendation even for G13 for Felicia but i don't want to proceed to this.

 

 

I am on the second day of tests with great results,i am happy and i will announce them when i am finish some details. 🌝

Edited 6 March, 20206 yr by D.FYLAKTOS

20 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

2 gauges (one in the dashboard and one in my console ) shown 100 'C and the radiator fan is not working

Do both gauges use the same sensor? If not, then they could be reading different temperatures because the water jacket temperature is different at the sensor points (I've seen this happen before).

 

Do you positively know (because you've done it yourself) that both gauges are calibrated to read the same from about 60C up to 120C? Uf not, a variation could be due to gauge calibration even if the water jacket is all at the same temperature.

 

Did you realise that an electric fan is designed to cool an engine that's going onto active heat? It should never run until/unless the OEM gauge (if fitted) shows over 100C.

59 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

Do both gauges use the same sensor? If not, then they could be reading different temperatures because the water jacket temperature is different at the sensor points (I've seen this happen before).

 

Do you positively know (because you've done it yourself) that both gauges are calibrated to read the same from about 60C up to 120C? Uf not, a variation could be due to gauge calibration even if the water jacket is all at the same temperature.

 

Did you realise that an electric fan is designed to cool an engine that's going onto active heat? It should never run until/unless the OEM gauge (if fitted) shows over 100C.

 

They were on the same hose with 10cm distance between them and they were showing the same 'C number,the panel gauge has a 4 pin sensor but the other has an aluminium adaptor like this one.

For sure they are not identical but they results are almost similar.

Trying to solve the problem i removed that 2nd adaptor because i thought was restricting the coolant flow.

 

My radiator fun for 20 years start working when the needle was showing  from 91-93 'C in the panel's gauge

few years ego when i installed a damned thermostat sensor with a Yellow ring the fan started working in higher temperatures (although the thermo-switch was the same) and i didn't knew why because the fan takes order from his switch but i didn't let him for long,i replace him with another one with Blue ring and everything returned to normal.

 

I have a steady route from house to work so i know exactly the moment that the fan would start working,the only difference is few dozens of meters (winter-summer) so any ''weird'' needle movements sound the alarm for me.

1 hour ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

I have a steady route from house to work so i know exactly the moment that the fan would start working,the only difference is few dozens of meters (winter-summer) so any ''weird'' needle movements sound the alarm for me.

😮😵

RicardoM : I am driving ''officially'' from 1987, till now i have drove pickup tracks,tractors,station wagon,military armoured vehicle and jeep,mini-vans,sedans,2 stroke and 4 stroke super sport motorcycles

for sure i am not an expert but when i am driving i always pay attention to the gauges and the sound that each vehicle produces so any unusual needle moving or strange noise is considered as ''suspicious''.

The vehicle for me is not a stack of metal with plastics and electronics which i can use it to any manner i want.

 

I had installed an extra gauge (analogical) in the console and another one (digital) to measure the temperature of the coolant before the thermostat and after the reservoir tank

these were not for ''show-off'' but based on my experience were ''saviours''.

In the first photo you can see that damned thermostat sensor with the Yellow ring (now has been replaced).

 

 

 

Edited 7 March, 20206 yr by D.FYLAKTOS

4 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

The vehicle for me is not a stack of metal with plastics and electronics which i can use it to any manner i want.

We love our cars too but not to the point of losing sleep for minor issues. You are on your own on this topic from now on.

22 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

why do you probe the temp in this place also,
there is almost no waterflow whatsoever from this hose,
the other probing spot is fine i guess
i think i would probe the main rad hose if i were you and that would also showcase when the thermostats starts opening

5 hours ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

why do you probe the temp in this place also,
there is almost no waterflow whatsoever from this hose,
the other probing spot is fine i guess
i think i would probe the main rad hose if i were you and that would also showcase when the thermostats starts opening

 

My mechanic advised to me to NOT cut any ''main'' (big) hose for adaptors with 1/8" NPT sensors because one day for some reason i must removed them (keep in mind that the extra gauges are from China) so the connection ''as is'' would be difficult and risky.

I wanted to have an extra gauge in case of the panel gauge starts showing wrong results from damage or ruin,in case of over heating it's something extra for me as precaution.

 

The lower adaptor has been placed in case of start losing coolant for example due to a damaged hose,the screen is in my left part of dashboard so if i see the number rolling down means that i have not the proper level of coolant in the reservoir tank and must stop.

I had some ''coolant'' problems in the past with my motorcycles and one time with my Trusty so i learned to pay attention to the temperature gauge with quick glimpses,it's a ''second nature'' to me to make quick checks while driving (gauges,mirrors,left-right side or road,strange moves of people that are on road side when i am ready to pass, i don't eat-smoke or listening loud music etc) due to my job and i am apply many things to the rest of my life.

 

23 hours ago, RicardoM said:

You are on your own on this topic from now on.

 

Before you leave me and vanish into thin air can you make a clarification?

Are you sure that this the correct diagram for 1300cc Skoda Felicia petrol?

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=https://i.imgur.com/ToFDeoH.jpg&key=ef5c4d52505cd83a89aa7fc4d93330b8a2210b083f5e09da869c260fa77c86bf

or it's from other model or diesel?

Certainly for the last 20 years or so, all VW, and I would think. all VAG cars are "conditioned" so that the temperature gauge will read exactly 90C between actual/real coolant temperatures of 75C and 107C, the standard thermostat setting in a 2000 VW Bora petrol was 86/98C, first stage fan speed (via thermoswitch) ON 92/97C...OFF 91/84C,  second stage fan speed  (via thermoswitch) ON 99/105C...OFF 98/91C

On 05/03/2020 at 12:08, D.FYLAKTOS said:

 

My final plan is: remove completely the old coolant (which basically is from 2 brands) and when drains i will add distilled water plus HEPU P900 G11 coolant which says in the label is made for older models (VAG TL 774C)

install the new genuine thermostat sensor (blue ring)

keep the ''New style'' thermostat

make a volatilization

and i think that will be the end of that sad story.

 

 

Few days after i have done all these here is the new situation:

The needle rises slowly,reaches the 80 'C then climb one click faster to 91 'C and stays there for few seconds (no radiator fan working)

then drops slowly to 80 'C and stays there but as the downhill starts then slowly goes again to 91-92 'C and stays there for some minutes.

The radiator fun starts working for 1st time but now it's for 30 seconds and not 45" as in previous situation and he needle drops to 90'C.

As i am reaching the traffic lights sector the needle stays steady at 90 'C and from now on the radiator works for 20 seconds only till the time that i will arrive to my destination no matter if it's a small route or an hour route !

 

No overheating,no suddenly up and down needle movements,no 100 'C on the gauge,no bad smell in the cabin, the car is more ''strong'' in the low-middle rpm than previous and (by pleasant surprise) i see some economy fuel comparatively to the previous situation.

Yes it's not like i used to see for many years in the past but that combination of metallic thermostat+new coolant+new thermostat sensor looks that works fine and i am waiting the hot days of summer to get a final result.

 

 

 

Once any car is in constant motion the radiator fan should not have to run at all. Even though there may only seem to be a few degrees difference (approx. 5C) between the start of the thermostat opening and the thermos switch cut in point the thermos switch is normally located in the radiator second pass (crossflow rad) so when the car is in motion this temperature will be lower than the cylinder head temperature but with a stationery car will read much closer to it as the radiator cooling effect is much lower in still air. (Don't know if the Felicia has a crossflow radiator or not).

On 14/03/2020 at 22:30, Johngerard said:

Once any car is in constant motion the radiator fan should not have to run at all.

 

Yes if you are in a open road as National road but when the curbs or the traffic occur then you relay on the fan.

 

In the past i had some nasty experiences with the coolant system that's why now i am very cautious.

As a Rookie i bought a motorcycle and the seller insured me that everything is checked (oil-coolant etc) but on the way to the garage i didn't pay attention to the gauge and when i entered in the garage the owner told my that hears noises of contraction-expansion from the radiator and guess what? the coolant level was extremely low and this cause me a small hole in the bottom of the radiator due to overheating.

Then i learned ''the hard way'' what radiator sealing is plus a damaged thermo-switch so one of my first patent in the motorcycle was a manual open-shout or the fan.

In my next motorcycle after a fairing crash i discovered that due to repair the idiot employee put the hoses of the reservoir (expansion) tank upside down !

Felicia thermostat housing is design fault. Thermostat tends to stick within the plastic housing.

 

Had the same fault.

Changed housing and thermostat. Then fill with coolant leaving the expansion tank cap off to allow for the release of trapped air pockets within the system.

 

Switch on heater to hot and allow the air to circulate as the heater matrix fills with coolant expel,ling any air via the expansion tank.

 

Once engine is warming up tighten the expansion tank cap on again and run engine up to temperature on idling only and check temperature guage.

 

 

 

Yes in general the felly had many design oversights when it came to cooling. 

On 20/03/2020 at 22:44, Thefeliciahacker said:

Yes in general the felly had many design oversights when it came to cooling. 

 

1) As a Rookie i use hose with pressure in the engine bay and inevitably one of the contacts of the thermo switch on radiator unplugged a little bit so when the national road finished and the curbs started i saw the temperature rising.

I didn't knew what to to do since there was no obvious reason so i connected the fan to work with the battery until i arrive home for further inspection.

2) The thermostat stuck but i was lucky because a repair shop was near by and the mechanic went and bought a new one and install it.

3) The thermostat 4pin sensor got some detritus and the needle start showing anything that she wanted,after 2 days of worry i found the cause i replace that sensor and everything was OK.

4) A noon returning home from work i didn't pay attention to the gauge because i had in mind a problem plus a problematic battery of my cell phone and i didn't saw the needle which rising,the steam of the boiling coolant make me to ''pull-over'' but after the car cooled a little bit everything went back to normal, what i didn't knew was that the relay of the radiator fan started making ''intermissions''.

5) A Sunday evening after a week that relay ''gave-up'' and the radiator was no working at all,i saw the overheat on time and stopped so for first time in my life i called the road assistance company to carry my Felicia back home.

Next day the mechanic found the guilty and the relay was replaced.

6) A night when i was returning home i saw the overheating on time and found a place to park,next day i manage to drive to the garage and later i learned that the water pump gasket had a leak.

 

All these above problem of the past make me to pay attention to the needle very often and start worrying when the problem of this topic occurred.

After installing 2 extra thermometers i feel a relief since i have some extra ''insurance''.