TDi Tuning box

[Ootohere]

Members 1/4 mile times here from their daily drivers that had tuning boxes installed as many others did and no early demise of their engines.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/209657-14tsi-14-miles-leaderboard

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/209675-14tsi-14-miles-leaderboard

 

The OP has TDI Tuning Box in the title.  A Trade Name, but is asking about it on a 1,300 cc petrol turbo and supercharged engine. No questions regarding a TDI.

I have run the TMC & Bluesparks on petrols, and driven others and my diesels with TDI Tuning boxes.

Never to my knowledge experienced how the 'TDI Tuning' product works on a CAVE Twincharger.

 

So really apples and pears and oranges and pips and seeds,

best consume carefully as all can cause you to choke.

Edited 2 September, 2020 by e-Roottoot

[AmusedMussel]

Any update on how your motor is running with a tuning box on it?

[KeithCheetham]

 I would suggest watching this video, rolling road testing of tuning boxes.

 

[AmusedMussel]

Nah mate. I like to watch impartial videos rather than biased.

 

I also asked out of curiosity more than anything

[AMD87]

7 hours ago, AmusedMussel said:

Nah mate. I like to watch impartial videos rather than biased.

 

I also asked out of curiosity more than anything

No biased there at all

[AmusedMussel]

The video was put together by a remapping company. Of course there is bias.

 

Read and watch videos by customers and media outlets who have nothing to gain from supporting one or the other. Tuning boxes aren't really any different to a remap since remaps aren't dynamic.

 

I was curious as to how its gone, that was my reason for bumping this thread. If you've nothing constructive to say Andrew. Kindly **** off.

On 12/11/2020 at 17:54, AMD87 said:

No biased there at all

 

[chimaera]

2 hours ago, AmusedMussel said:

The video was put together by a remapping company. Of course there is bias.

 

Read and watch videos by customers and media outlets who have nothing to gain from supporting one or the other. Tuning boxes aren't really any different to a remap since remaps aren't dynamic.

 

I was curious as to how its gone, that was my reason for bumping this thread. If you've nothing constructive to say Andrew. Kindly **** off.

 

Customers will have choice supportive bias: basically not wanting to acknowledge that the thing they have invested time and money in might be rubbish.

[AmusedMussel]

33 minutes ago, chimaera said:

Customers will have choice supportive bias: basically not wanting to acknowledge that the thing they have invested time and money in might be rubbish.

Only if they don't exercise their statuatory consumer rights.

[AMD87]

9 hours ago, AmusedMussel said:

The video was put together by a remapping company. Of course there is bias.

 

Read and watch videos by customers and media outlets who have nothing to gain from supporting one or the other. Tuning boxes aren't really any different to a remap since remaps aren't dynamic.

 

I was curious as to how its gone, that was my reason for bumping this thread. If you've nothing constructive to say Andrew. Kindly **** off.

 

So how is there bias there when everything was laid out in front of you as well as the convos they had with the tuning box companies. Don't forget one of them then went onto vbox and used a mobile phone gps app that uses a 1hz reciever from a customer to show how much faster the car was.

 

Anyone that knows anything about datalogging knows you don't even consider using that has a 1hz reciever so not i want **** off as you put it as you don't get to decide who posts and who doesn't.

[AmusedMussel]

As Chimaera posted above. Choice supported bias, or confirmation bias.

 

The remapping company know what they want to find, so they end up finding it with little hard evidence or circumstantial evidence. 

 

Literally every single article I have seen on tuning boxes vs. remap thats by media or prospective buyers (with access to both) has proved that they do the exact same job, but the tuning box has the advantage of variable programming and easier removal. 

 

This link is equivalent to what you've posted: https://www.racechip.co.uk/chip-tuning/remapping.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA2O39BRBjEiwApB2IkmGsGyW874Gh0J92NIf32OUrVEe0EJRqfNrlj9_7sjAH6MrUnkiE2hoCbq4QAvD_BwE

 

Of course the tuning box manufacturer is going to say theirs is best. Much like your remapping company is going to say a remap is better.

[sepulchrave]

A custom remap is really only necessary on modified engines, by modified I mean modified for performance by improving the pumping efficiency of the standard engine, not modified by sticking a load of pointless junk all over it.

[chimaera]

On 20/11/2020 at 13:02, AmusedMussel said:

Only if they don't exercise their statuatory consumer rights.

 

1 hour ago, AmusedMussel said:

As Chimaera posted above. Choice supported bias, or confirmation bias.

You fundamentally misunderstand what choice supportive bias is. It is not the same as confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is seeing the results you want to see or distorting the evidence to support a pre-conceived theory.

 

Choice supportive bias is not wanting to see the flaws in a product you have invested in and are happy with e.g. in this case, buying an expensive tuning box and not wanting to accept that your expensive purchase is not as good as you want to think it is. It requires you to accept that you made a poor purchasing decision.

Darkside's work as presented in the video is sound from an engineering perspective. It is exactly the sort of test that should be done with these devices to highlight their deficiencies compared to a remap. I would have liked to see a teardown of the boxes after the tests were done, but I suspect Darkside would be opening themselves up to accusations of reverse engineering for commercial gain had they done that.

 

The problem with the video is that Darkside sell a competing product to these boxes. This leaves room for champions of tuning boxes with their choice supportive bias to accuse Darkside of confirmation bias. Thus we continue going around in circles.

 

[AmusedMussel]

When I said 'or' I meant both, rather than incinuating that they're the same thing. Apologies for mispeaking on that.

 

Darkside could be accused of having confirmation bias and/or choice supportive bias as they are choosing their product over the tuning box. Its semantics at this point and my point does still stand. Provide more unbiased evidence and you can back up your point better.

 

We can continue to go round in circles if you want. I'm not a champion of tuning boxes. I have neither on my car, nor am I sure as to whether I want one. I was just merely curious to see how OPs has gone.

 

Not sure why this needed to turn into anything at all.

[AmusedMussel]

Oh right yeah, it DID need to turn into this because Andrew is being his usual **** self and has a stiffy for Darkside.

[AMD87]

9 hours ago, AmusedMussel said:

As Chimaera posted above. Choice supported bias, or confirmation bias.

 

The remapping company know what they want to find, so they end up finding it with little hard evidence or circumstantial evidence. 

 

Literally every single article I have seen on tuning boxes vs. remap thats by media or prospective buyers (with access to both) has proved that they do the exact same job, but the tuning box has the advantage of variable programming and easier removal. 

 

This link is equivalent to what you've posted: https://www.racechip.co.uk/chip-tuning/remapping.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA2O39BRBjEiwApB2IkmGsGyW874Gh0J92NIf32OUrVEe0EJRqfNrlj9_7sjAH6MrUnkiE2hoCbq4QAvD_BwE

 

Of course the tuning box manufacturer is going to say theirs is best. Much like your remapping company is going to say a remap is better.

 

Actually Darkside were looking to team up with a tuning box company so they can resell them thats why they looked at getting these boxes and see what was best and to work with these companies. You seen the results so they were with thier own solution which is a power gate.

 

you can also variable the programing with a remap for example in the mk1 fabia vrs you can change maps via the cruise control so theres no advantage there plus tuning boxes also flag up a code on the ecu.

[AmusedMussel]

The advantage is that you can do all of the above on the driveway for free. Which obviously, won't be ok for remap companies.

 

Believe it or not. I didn't have any interest in arguing tuning box vs. remap. I simply wondered how it was going, but it seems the OP isn't responding, so it's irrelevent. 

 

 

[chimaera]

Just now, AmusedMussel said:

The advantage is that you can do all of the above on the driveway for free. Which obviously, won't be ok for remap companies.

 

Believe it or not. I didn't have any interest in arguing tuning box vs. remap. I simply wondered how it was going, but it seems the OP isn't responding, so it's irrelevent. 

 

 

If you have no interest in tuning boxes why are you so keen to defend an objectively inferior solution?

[Ootohere]

Other than @dandanfings who had issues with the TMC box used on a CTHE (That was when remaps were not available for a CTHE and people were using tuning boxes), those using a genuine TMC (not the 2 wire one) or BlueSpark box were not reporting any issues on here.

It would be good to know how @BananaKevhas got on.

 

Inconsistency, well many inconsistencies in his stories....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 25 November, 2020 by e-Roottoot

[AMD87]

1 hour ago, AmusedMussel said:

The advantage is that you can do all of the above on the driveway for free. Which obviously, won't be ok for remap companies.

 

Believe it or not. I didn't have any interest in arguing tuning box vs. remap. I simply wondered how it was going, but it seems the OP isn't responding, so it's irrelevent. 

 

 

I can remap my fabia from darkside from outside my house..... 

[AmusedMussel]

4 hours ago, chimaera said:

If you have no interest in tuning boxes why are you so keen to defend an objectively inferior solution?

Curiosity, that's all.

 

And as stated. Its not inferior is it? They do the same job, they're just different methods of doing it

 

3 hours ago, AMD87 said:

I can remap my fabia from darkside from outside my house..... 

How much did that cost you for the privilege? As opposed to you know, just unplugging it when its not needed. Or pressing a button on the box to change the setting?

[chimaera]

Just now, AmusedMussel said:

Curiosity, that's all.

 

And as stated. Its not inferior is it? They do the same job, they're just different methods of doing it

I've already explained at length how it is inferior. Fooling the ECU into overfuelling and overboosting is not the same as remapping the ECU to adjust its operating parameters.

[sepulchrave]

33 minutes ago, chimaera said:

I've already explained at length how it is inferior. Fooling the ECU into overfuelling and overboosting is not the same as remapping the ECU to adjust its operating parameters.

 

If it's an interceptor then it's not inferior, it's just a remap applied dynamically rather than rewriting the static map, it's algorithmically derived to provide the same end result.

[J.R.]

6 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

 

it's algorithmically derived to provide the same end result.

That sounds like someone wearing a white lab coat and holding a clipboard would say in an authorative manner on a shampoo or anti-ageing cream advert

[sepulchrave]

16 minutes ago, J.R. said:

That sounds like someone wearing a white lab coat and holding a clipboard would say in an authorative manner on a shampoo or anti-ageing cream advert

 

All this nonsense is about toys for boys anyway 🙄 

[chimaera]

Just now, sepulchrave said:

 

If it's an interceptor then it's not inferior, it's just a remap applied dynamically rather than rewriting the static map, it's algorithmically derived to provide the same end result.

No. There's a fundamental difference. A tuning box is sending bad data to the ECU so that it overfuels and overboosts relatively indiscriminately. A remap is changing the known parameters fed into the ECU to change its behaviour while retaining full control over the engine. With a tuning box, the ECU doesn't know if the fuel rail pressure or boost has gone too high because that information is hidden from it until the engine has gone way over the limits set by the ECU. With a remap, the ECU knows at all times what the actual rail & boost pressures are and can take action if they're in danger of being exceeded.

 

Let's say a tuning box is set so that it will deliver 5 % more rail pressure above the ECU spec, or put another way, the ECU is now being told the rail pressure is 95 % of what it actually is (give or take a small bit). If the ECU's upper limit for rail pressure is 2000 bar, the tuning box will now run the rail up to 2000/0.95 = 2105 bar.

 

These boxes are dumb devices in the sense that they don't have any feedback from the ECU to allow them to tweak/control what they're doing to the engine. They're a bunch of resistors set up so that an input signal from the sensor is manipulated  to present a lower reading to the ECU. This is done irrespective of operating condition or load. The better ones may have some curves to tailor the manipulation as the sensor value changes, but they're still operating blind relative to what the ECU is doing.

 

Consider a simple example: modern TDIs have multiple injection events per combustion cycle, generally some small pilot injections followed by the main injection event. The engine has multiple sets of injection patterns, combinations of duration and pressure, depending on operating condition e.g. cruise, warmup, DPF regen. The engine designers, and remappers, can look at all of these and tweak the injection patterns exactly so that the right amount of fuel goes through as it's needed, so maybe a short pilot injection and the rest of the fuel in the main injection during cruise, or under light load, just small pulses of fuel as the flame propagates down the cylinder. During DPF regen, they might want to avoid too much fuel in the post-injection but still push fuel during combustion. And of course, all of this can be matched to the turbo's behaviour to ensure the best use of fuel and air to maximise power without damaging things or clogging everything up with soot. All of these things are under the control of the person writing the map, and leave the ECU in full control of the engine when they're done.

 

The tuning box is incapable of this level of sophistication in managing injection behaviour. All it can do is turn up the rail pressure so that more fuel flows during each injection event, regardless of whether that's a good idea at that point in time or not. So yes, there's more fuel during the main injection, but there's more fuel during the pilot injection too, and more fuel during post-injection for DPF regen, more fuel any time the injector opens. Imagine all that extra fuel draining down the walls of the cylinder after a mid-regen shutdown?