Coolant Leak & use of Radweld

[MrkSkoda]

My 6 years old Petrol  1.4TSI DSG Octavia seems to have developed a slight water leak.  Problem is I don't know from where.  I have had several looks in the engine compartment, but not seen anything obvious.  By slight leak I meant that after a 20 mile drive and then being left overnight the coolant level seems to have dropped by 3mm.  I first knew there was a problem when the coolant warning light came on Saturday morning.  Luckily the local Skoda garage was open and bought a bottle of the C13 coolant concentrate.  I filled it to the max level, and then have been monitoring ever since.  As said it seems to be dropping a few mm every day, but from where?  The cam belt was replaced this time last year, but the water pump was not.  Apparently it’s not driven by the cam belt on my 1.4TSI (140PS).  The car has done about 70,000 miles over its 6 year life.  The car has been regularly serviced by the local main dealer.

 

Any thoughts what I should do?  I suspect a visit to the main dealer is likely to be expensive. 

 

What about the use of Radweld (basic product in a blue bottle)?  I get the impression this can be a quick fix, but could cause long term problems. 

[classic]

It could literally be anything, only way to find out is a proper inspection and pressure test. I would book it wherever you get the servicing done.

Please don’t put radweld or anything similar into it. 

Edited 4 August, 2020 by classic

[BigJakk]

I had two coolant leaks on my MKII VRS - one saw the coolant dropping reasonably quickly (needed a little top up every 40 or so miles) - this was due to a leaky thermostat housing and was evidenced by water marks around the adjoining pipes. The second time was a very gradual drop in coolant, maybe needed a top up every week or so - from the topside looking in i couldn't find any tell tale trace of any leaks at hoses etc. Turned out to that the water pump was weeping slightly - i would never have been able to trace it rooting around the engine bay.

 

As per above if there are no tell tale water marks obviously indicating where its coming from, i would be getting it booked in somewhere.

[cheezemonkhai]

Don’t use radweld type solutions as in this particular car it’s just as likely to cause an expensive to fix problem as fix the leak.
 

The cooling systems have very fine channels etc. It appears that these can be blocked just by the contents of the silicate bag leaking, never mind adding anything to the system.

[MrkSkoda]

13 hours ago, BigJakk said:

I had two coolant leaks on my MKII VRS - one saw the coolant dropping reasonably quickly (needed a little top up every 40 or so miles) - this was due to a leaky thermostat housing and was evidenced by water marks around the adjoining pipes. The second time was a very gradual drop in coolant, maybe needed a top up every week or so - from the topside looking in i couldn't find any tell tale trace of any leaks at hoses etc. Turned out to that the water pump was weeping slightly - i would never have been able to trace it rooting around the engine bay.

 

As per above if there are no tell tale water marks obviously indicating where its coming from, i would be getting it booked in somewhere.

Very interesting what you said about your 2 leaks, and needing to check from the underneath.  I suspect this is what I will need to get done.

 

At the moment the leak seems to have stopped or at least got much less.  Yesterday I drove 170 miles in the car.  It's first long journey since I discovered the problem.  I was expecting to have to top the car up when I got home, but after allowing the engine to properly cool down overnight, the coolant level had only changed by about 1mm.  Could the problem have gone away?  I have not used any Radweld or similar. The only thing I have done is top the coolant up with the correct VAG C13 coolant.

 

 

[MrkSkoda]

43 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Don’t use radweld type solutions as in this particular car it’s just as likely to cause an expensive to fix problem as fix the leak.
 

The cooling systems have very fine channels etc. It appears that these can be blocked just by the contents of the silicate bag leaking, never mind adding anything to the system.

As far as I know the coolant system does have a Silica Bag.  I read somewhere that systems with a silica bag have "Mit Silka" on their expansion chambers.  What does the silca bag do? 

 

The impression I'm getting from all replies is not to use Radweld!  Luckily I only bought a tiny bottle for use in emegencies.  It's currently un-opened, and I suspect will remain that way unless there is an emergency!

[cheezemonkhai]

The bag can degrade or split and the particles released are believed to be sufficient to block a heater matrix.

 

That’s a sizeable bill to fix, so I imagine radweld type products would pose a similar risk in such a sensitive system.

[GreenMachine1.6]

Used Radweld in the 70's even then caused problems. Surprised they still sell it. Throw it away in case you get tempted😁  Or  you could save it for the day you buy a vintage 60's Skoda.

[BigJakk]

On 05/08/2020 at 10:02, MrkSkoda said:

Very interesting what you said about your 2 leaks, and needing to check from the underneath.  I suspect this is what I will need to get done.

 

At the moment the leak seems to have stopped or at least got much less.  Yesterday I drove 170 miles in the car.  It's first long journey since I discovered the problem.  I was expecting to have to top the car up when I got home, but after allowing the engine to properly cool down overnight, the coolant level had only changed by about 1mm.  Could the problem have gone away?  I have not used any Radweld or similar. The only thing I have done is top the coolant up with the correct VAG C13 coolant.

 

 

 

In my experience, car problems sadly tend not to fix themselves - they just trick you into thinking they have and then crop up again when you least expect - thus becoming an 'intermittent problem' -- which is an even bigger pain to diagnose!

 

My understanding is that these coolant systems are meant to be 'sealed' - as such the level shouldn't drop at all under normaloperation. Likewise when mine leaked, there was the odd journey where the level didn't seem to drop - getting my hopes up, but it would eventually drop again before long.

 

I would keep plenty of spare coolant in the car to hand and keep regularly checking your coolant levels (remember to check at cold) if you need to continue using it before getting checked out.

 

 

Edited 6 August, 2020 by BigJakk

[ScoutCJB]

One of my old Scouts started using coolant one day, no sign of loss anywhere other than header tank level dropping.  As time went on the ammount of loss just increased.  If it gets worse book it in and get a proper diagnosis.  Additionally i'd go specialist route as opposed to main dealer personally.

Edited 7 August, 2020 by ScoutCJB

[MrkSkoda]

On 05/08/2020 at 15:10, GreenMachine1.6 said:

Used Radweld in the 70's even then caused problems. Surprised they still sell it. Throw it away in case you get tempted😁  Or  you could save it for the day you buy a vintage 60's Skoda.

 

12 hours ago, BigJakk said:

 

In my experience, car problems sadly tend not to fix themselves - they just trick you into thinking they have and then crop up again when you least expect - thus becoming an 'intermittent problem' -- which is an even bigger pain to diagnose!

 

My understanding is that these coolant systems are meant to be 'sealed' - as such the level shouldn't drop at all under normaloperation. Likewise when mine leaked, there was the odd journey where the level didn't seem to drop - getting my hopes up, but it would eventually drop again before long.

 

I would keep plenty of spare coolant in the car to hand and keep regularly checking your coolant levels (remember to check at cold) if you need to continue using it before getting checked out.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, ScoutCJB said:

One of my old Scouts started using coolant one day, no sign of loss anywhere other than header tank level dropping.  As time went on the ammount of loss just increased.  If it gets worse book it in and get a proper diagnosis.  Additionally i'd go specialist route as opposed to main dealer personally.

 

Thank you all for the replies. 

 

Sounds like RadWeld must be avoided at all costs!  

 

I checked the coolant this morning and it had dropped by a 5mm.  It took 90ml to get it back to the top.  The car had not been used for 36 hours, so was fully cold.  So as Bigjakk said these problems rarely go away.  Could not see the source of the water leak, but sounds like will only see it from underneath.  I think the suggestion of going to specialist is good idea.  The cost of the main dealer definitely frightens me!  Very easy to run up a big bill. 

[varaderoguy]

 

On 04/08/2020 at 16:37, MrkSkoda said:

My 6 years old Petrol  1.4TSI DSG Octavia seems to have developed a slight water leak.  Problem is I don't know from where.  I have had several looks in the engine compartment, but not seen anything obvious.  By slight leak I meant that after a 20 mile drive and then being left overnight the coolant level seems to have dropped by 3mm.  I first knew there was a problem when the coolant warning light came on Saturday morning.  Luckily the local Skoda garage was open and bought a bottle of the C13 coolant concentrate.  I filled it to the max level, and then have been monitoring ever since.  As said it seems to be dropping a few mm every day, but from where?  The cam belt was replaced this time last year, but the water pump was not.  Apparently it’s not driven by the cam belt on my 1.4TSI (140PS).  The car has done about 70,000 miles over its 6 year life.  The car has been regularly serviced by the local main dealer.

 

Any thoughts what I should do?  I suspect a visit to the main dealer is likely to be expensive. 

 

What about the use of Radweld (basic product in a blue bottle)?  I get the impression this can be a quick fix, but could cause long term problems. 

ARH - its the waterpump problem again folks.  As the original posting is for a 1.4TSI engine; it is urgent that the waterpump and cam-belt be changed ASAP.  Its a known weakness on early MK3's.  Do not ignore this - the initial loss of coolant is the car's way of saying that the waterpump seals and empeller are failing.

[varaderoguy]

Both the TDI's and the TSI's seem to suffer the same waterpump problem.  The waterpump and cam-belt must be done at 60k on early MK3's.

[MrkSkoda]

5 minutes ago, varaderoguy said:

 

ARH - its the waterpump problem again folks.  As the original posting is for a 1.4TSI engine; it is urgent that the waterpump and cam-belt be changed ASAP.  Its a known weakness on early MK3's.  Do not ignore this - the initial loss of coolant is the car's way of saying that the waterpump seals and empeller are failing.

 

2 minutes ago, varaderoguy said:

Both the TDI's and the TSI's seem to suffer the same waterpump problem.  The waterpump and cam-belt must be done at 60k on early MK3's.

The Cam-belt was changed a year ago (5 years/60K Miles), by the local Skoda main dealer.  At the the time they said that the water pump on this particular engine was not driven by the cam-belt but by another belt. So they did not change it.  They had originally quoted for a new water pump but they said it was not needed.  As a layman I had to take their word for it.  I will be annoyed if this is not the case and the water pump should have been done at the time of the cam-belt change.  The latter cost nearly 500 quid.

 

I'm guessing if the car is put up on a ramp, and the plastic cover underneath the engine removed that it should then be possible to see any water leaks. Plus replace the water pump parts if needed.  Is it possible to feel down for any dampness under the water pump?  I'm guessing if I buy an Hayes Manual it will show me where the water pump is located.

[varaderoguy]

51 minutes ago, MrkSkoda said:

 

The Cam-belt was changed a year ago (5 years/60K Miles), by the local Skoda main dealer.  At the the time they said that the water pump on this particular engine was not driven by the cam-belt but by another belt. So they did not change it.  They had originally quoted for a new water pump but they said it was not needed.  As a layman I had to take their word for it.  I will be annoyed if this is not the case and the water pump should have been done at the time of the cam-belt change.  The latter cost nearly 500 quid.

 

I'm guessing if the car is put up on a ramp, and the plastic cover underneath the engine removed that it should then be possible to see any water leaks. Plus replace the water pump parts if needed.  Is it possible to feel down for any dampness under the water pump?  I'm guessing if I buy an Hayes Manual it will show me where the water pump is located.

 

The devil is in the detail here...they changed the Cam-belt and tensioner, but not the waterpump.  Quite rightly, Skoda have said that it is a different pulley, but that still does *not* get away from the fact that the waterpump is faulty.  I suggest that you firstly check to see if there is a recall here; https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-recall otherwise you will need to get the waterpump looked at.  Its an arse, because whilst you will need to replace the pump anyhow, you will still need to slacken off the cambelt to get to the waterpump.

 

You asked whether it would be possible to determine where the water is coming from.  Get the car up onto a ramp and first do an inspect when cold. Then start the car and get it up to temperture. The brown staining from the waterpump area is a good give-away there is a problem.  I would also look at bottom of the radiator and the condition of the radiator to make sure you don't have a leak coming from there.  Water will generally follow gravity, so the lowest point is where you will need to be looking at for leaks on the coolant system.

[MrkSkoda]

13 minutes ago, varaderoguy said:

 

The devil is in the detail here...they changed the Cam-belt and tensioner, but not the waterpump.  Quite rightly, Skoda have said that it is a different pulley, but that still does *not* get away from the fact that the waterpump is faulty.  I suggest that you firstly check to see if there is a recall here; https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-recall otherwise you will need to get the waterpump looked at.  Its an arse, because whilst you will need to replace the pump anyhow, you will still need to slacken off the cambelt to get to the waterpump.

 

You asked whether it would be possible to determine where the water is coming from.  Get the car up onto a ramp and first do an inspect when cold. Then start the car and get it up to temperture. The brown staining from the waterpump area is a good give-away there is a problem.  I would also look at bottom of the radiator and the condition of the radiator to make sure you don't have a leak coming from there.  Water will generally follow gravity, so the lowest point is where you will need to be looking at for leaks on the coolant system.

So really what you are saying is that they should have done the water pump an year ago, when they they did the cam-belt.  What I don't understand is why they did not.  They had origianlly quoted for the extra work of replacing the water pump.  Now of course it will cost far more to do it.  I'm guessing another 500 quid.  Not best pleased as the car is 6 years old and was hoping for no big bills. If it is as you say the water pump then I need to take it back to the dealer who did the cam-belt if there is any hope of them doing a good will jesture towards the cost of the labour.  My original plan was to use a local cheaper/smaller garage.  I'm sure it is the water pump. 

 

My plan is to see if I can get the car up on a ramp and look for the bown staining as you say.  I noticed there was some dampness uinder the car when my wife drove it off this morning.  Of course on the hotest day of the year, such dampness evaporates very quickly, plus an hour had gone before I noticed the patch.  I will be looking at that more when the weather cools down. 

 

The car had a major service just over a month ago.  At the same dealer.  Should they have noticed the leaking water pump?  I guess it could have occured since then.  I'm pretty sure they are meant to have checked the coolant as part of the service.

 

I have checked there is no recalls.

[varaderoguy]

Sorry - yes, Waterpump and Cambelt are usually done together.  The Waterpump is a consumable.  Where in the UK are you based?  I only ask, because it would be worth having a consultation with an independant VW Specialist first.  Your Skoda dealer sounds like mine....not that great, so I have started taking my car to Autohaus in Edinburgh for their attention.

 

So - if you let us know where in the UK you are based, we - the Briskoda collective - can point you in the right direction of a decent garage.

[J.R.]

1 hour ago, MrkSkoda said:

 

The Cam-belt was changed a year ago (5 years/60K Miles), by the local Skoda main dealer.  At the the time they said that the water pump on this particular engine was not driven by the cam-belt but by another belt. So they did not change it.  They had originally quoted for a new water pump but they said it was not needed. 

 

Translated from Service Receptionist make it up as you go along into truth = they found that the waterpump they had in stock or had ordered was not the right one for your vehicle so just replaced the cam belt knowing that they would probably get to do the water pump soon anyway.

[Towelie]

My old mk2 developed a split in the top hose coming from the radiator which was split by rubbing on the fan casing. It could literally be a small knick in a hose somewhere. If you can take any plastic covers off and easy to remove parts such as air ducts to the airbox above the radiator and check for split hoses. 

 

Radweld is last resort and it doesn't sound like yours is gushing fluid out at a rate that would warrant choking up the coolant system with that stuff. 

[MrkSkoda]

2 hours ago, varaderoguy said:

Sorry - yes, Waterpump and Cambelt are usually done together.  The Waterpump is a consumable.  Where in the UK are you based?  I only ask, because it would be worth having a consultation with an independant VW Specialist first.  Your Skoda dealer sounds like mine....not that great, so I have started taking my car to Autohaus in Edinburgh for their attention.

 

So - if you let us know where in the UK you are based, we - the Briskoda collective - can point you in the right direction of a decent garage.

 

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

Translated from Service Receptionist make it up as you go along into truth = they found that the waterpump they had in stock or had ordered was not the right one for your vehicle so just replaced the cam belt knowing that they would probably get to do the water pump soon anyway.

 

1 hour ago, Towelie said:

My old mk2 developed a split in the top hose coming from the radiator which was split by rubbing on the fan casing. It could literally be a small knick in a hose somewhere. If you can take any plastic covers off and easy to remove parts such as air ducts to the airbox above the radiator and check for split hoses. 

 

Radweld is last resort and it doesn't sound like yours is gushing fluid out at a rate that would warrant choking up the coolant system with that stuff. 

Hi All.  I'm in Bedford.  Yes it would be great if you can recommend a good local specialist.  The dealer was a small concern with just 3-4 outlets as far as I know. In the last 18 months they have been taken over by a much larger national franchise.  As far as I can tell the staff are mostly the same.  I suspect the prices have gone up.

I wish at the time I had insisted they had replaced the water pump.  From memory they did not contact me to say they weren’t going to replace it.  As it was a cost save (about £80 from memory) then I guess they felt they had no need to.  Interestingly I have just looked at the receipt from the work carried out a year ago.  It actually says “Work Completed: Replace Cam belt and water pump”.  But at the time I remember them saying they had not replaced it.  The parts listed as being used are tooth belt, roller, tensioner & seal ring.  The labour cost is show as £407 (ex VAT)  then discounted by 50% (not sure why the discount).  So total cost parts + labour is £429 (inc VAT).  I was quite pleased at the time as was less than the £500 I was expecting.  Not so pleased now if it’s another 500 pounds!  The car has done about 7K miles since cam-belt work.

Correct the car is not currently gushing coolant.  I'm not planning to use RadWeld, as sounds like that can cause a lot of other problems.  Luckily it only cost 4 pounds for a tiny bottle.

[varaderoguy]

I would go with the original plan of getting a proper diagnosis done. It will either be waterpump related or radiator related. The discount on the labour was probably done to the fact that they didn't replace the pump.

[J.R.]

If you can confirm that the water pump is indeed leaking then take it back to them with their bill for replacing it and tell them that the new pump they fitted is now leaking.

 

You did after all accept their recommendation and quote to replace the cam belt and water pump at the same time and they have given you a reciept stating they did the work.

 

And when they say that it wasn't fitted you are in the driving seat, they recommended it and the subsequent failure of what you now know to be the original pump confirms their recommendation, you contracted with them to do the work and now you find out that they didn't and issued a false invoice.

 

They should both legally and morally replace the water pump at their cost, you might for your own conscience agree to contribute £80 which shows good faith but you should hold that back till its needed.

 

good luck!

[classic]

4 hours ago, varaderoguy said:

Sorry - yes, Waterpump and Cambelt are usually done together.  The Waterpump is a consumable.  Where in the UK are you based?  I only ask, because it would be worth having a consultation with an independant VW Specialist first.  Your Skoda dealer sounds like mine....not that great, so I have started taking my car to Autohaus in Edinburgh for their attention.

 

So - if you let us know where in the UK you are based, we - the Briskoda collective - can point you in the right direction of a decent garage.

The water pump on the 1.4 tsi is at the opposite end of the engine driven by its own separate drive belt. Therefore there is no reason for it to be incoperated in a cam belt change. The majority of water pumps on vag group cars are driven by  the cam belt, and I suspect the service receptionist was initially ignorantly  happy to carry out MrSkodas request to replace the pump with the cam belt. No doubt once the car was in the workshop the technician queried it as the water pump is nothing to do with the cam belt and is an expensive job in its own right.

There have been some water pump failures of 1.4 tsi engines documented on here but not many, so it’s hardly an inherent fault. MrSkoda’s car is 6 years old and I don’t think we can diagnose it over the internet, although the water pump is a distinct possibility.

[J.R.]

Ah that puts a completely different complexion on it, I think your analysis is probably spot on.

 

I wont lose sleep over maligning the motor trade in error this one time 😀

[classic]

I don’t know enough either having never done a cam belt change on one of these, but I’ve previously read the manual. I believe the water pump belt cover and possibly part of the water pump housing is removed to fit one of the timing tools - therefore the water pump is disturbed fitting the belt, so it wouldn’t take too much of a leap of imagination that if this is done wrongly a leak could be caused !
Also these engines are very prone to air locks as the cooling system should be vacuum filled, which a dealer should know about, but again it doesn’t take much imagination to see a dealer technician just filling the cooling system with a watering can...... and now MrSkodas car needs a few top ups as the air works out of the system.

Edited 7 August, 2020 by classic