37 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

Sorry if I didn't make it clear. Yes, the tuner wants to replace my broken turbo with the L380X. His words were that he can tune the hell out of them.

I'm assuming the L380 can also handle a small amount of tuning (it's cheaper than the L380X) so that could be a cheaper option if I don't plan on further modifications.

In terms of the L380X, if I go that route, I'm assuming that alone won't produce any extra power over and above what I already have without supporting modifications such as down pipe and inlet pipe?

I've submitted an enquiry to littco to see how many power the L380 can comfortably handle, as it doesn't say on the website.

Traditionally companies name their turbos based on the minimum hp they can safely get out of them but usually it's a bit above that. The L380 should make at least the same hp as the OEM IS38 but given that your tuner did not really max out the OEM previously he could maybe extract something more.

The L380X is said to make 410+ up to 430 with full stage 2 peripherals. The X has apparently a couple of additional changes so I would ask Littco if the differences between them are focused solely on extracting more hp or they have to to with reliability enhancements, I am guessing it's the former so if you're not interested in maxing out a stage 2 then the simple 380 could do just fine.

However this is the time to consider your long term plans performance wise. Upgrading to the lowest hybrid and then deciding you'd like to scratch that itch further would mean a complete waste of the cost of the current upgrade. If you don't think you'll ever go down the full stage 3 path (and associated cost) maybe opting for a maxed stage 2 at 410+ bhp (380X) is the better option, otherwise if you just want to get going as if you had an OEM (but more reliable) IS38 then L380 should be your choice.

Turbo choice aside, is the original tuner willing to refund and return to OEM map?

If so then I'd be doing that and going somewhere else for a new turbo and tune. Any tuner worth their salt should offer this service especially with what has gone wrong.

If this specialist has had so many failures and he's still in business, it can't be because he's put his hands in his pockets for refunds can it.

Update.

Having spoke to another tuner, they've recommended against the littco turbo, apparently they're made with cheap chinese parts and don't have a good rep. Suggested options for an OEM turbo for £1500, or a TTE Race Turbo for a little more. They've also suggested that I get a new down pipe and cat as well, they're saying it's probably knackered after all the oil that has gone through it, and it's possible that bits from the turbo may have broke it as well.

Cost wise, I'm looking at somewhere in the region of £3,500 for a TTE turbo, down pipe/sport cat and a new remap.

This tuner is also saying that 1.6 bar boost pressure it too much, and that's the reason why people are seeing their turbo's going. I thought this was pretty much the standard boost pressure for stage 1, but they're saying it's not. 1.4 bar is what they're suggesting for stage 1.

Edited 19 November, 20205 yr by TheBinarySheep

So every cloud has a silver lining.

I understand this is a substantial expense but at least you keep the possibility of increasing performance in the future.

Which TTE turbo would you be interested in? Are air intake and intercooler stock?

 

Also, personal opinion, the new map may only have accentuated a problem that you may already had on your turbo.

12 minutes ago, Roscio said:

So every cloud has a silver lining.

I understand this is a substantial expense but at least you keep the possibility of increasing performance in the future.

Which TTE turbo would you be interested in? Are air intake and intercooler stock?

 

Also, personal opinion, the new map may only have accentuated a problem that you may already had on your turbo.

Turbo I'd be going for is just the TTE IS38RACE. Basically an OEM turbo with uprated bearings and some extra balancing I think. It's about the same price as a stock turbo, so it doesn't make sense not to fit one. The next one up is the TTE IS475, but that's £1,000 more expensive and unnecessary. The IS38RACE is good for 400hp and more

1 hour ago, TheBinarySheep said:

Update.

Having spoke to another tuner, they've recommended against the littco turbo, apparently they're made with cheap chinese parts and don't have a good rep. Suggested options for an OEM turbo for £1500, or a TTE Race Turbo for a little more. They've also suggested that I get a new down pipe and cat as well, they're saying it's probably knackered after all the oil that has gone through it, and it's possible that bits from the turbo may have broke it as well.

Cost wise, I'm looking at somewhere in the region of £3,500 for a TTE turbo, down pipe/sport cat and a new remap.

This tuner is also saying that 1.6 bar boost pressure it too much, and that's the reason why people are seeing their turbo's going. I thought this was pretty much the standard boost pressure for stage 1, but they're saying it's not. 1.4 bar is what they're suggesting for stage 1.

Ok, I have my serious doubts about that "other tuner" based on all of what they've told you...

a) I'm not being personally affiliated to Littco in any way, but since I trust owner's feedback above any tuner's own claims, the experiences from Littco owners in forums don't echo at all the claims about cheap chinese items or worse, a bad performance/reliability.

b) Every log of stage 1 on the gen3 I've seen is hitting peak boost at around 1.6bar (1.55-1.65), that includes the big, proven tuners like REVO, Unitronic, APR among others, 1.4bar is simply a joke.  I'm sorry but on that claim alone I would say forget about them and find someone who really knows this platform.

c) There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to be drawn to a stage 3 setup and a cost 3-4K for a blown turbo if YOU don't want that power. Plenty of turbo rebuilders available to provide you with an upgraded IS38 making similar power to the OEM unit (or a bit more) but a much greater reliability.

To me, apart from their unsubstantiated claims about other turbos and remaps, these guys seem like they're trying to up-sell you to a solution you were not interested in the first place just because it will mean more revenue for them, I would honestly look elsewhere.

Edited 19 November, 20205 yr by newbie69

 

1 hour ago, newbie69 said:

Ok, I have my serious doubts about that "other tuner" based on all of what they've told you...

a) I'm not being personally affiliated to Littco in any way, but since I trust owner's feedback above any tuner's own claims, the experiences from Littco owners in forums don't echo at all the claims about cheap chinese items or worse, a bad performance/reliability.

b) Every log of stage 1 on the gen3 I've seen is hitting peak boost at around 1.6bar (1.55-1.65), that includes the big, proven tuners like REVO, Unitronic, APR among others, 1.4bar is simply a joke.  I'm sorry but on that claim alone I would say forget about them and find someone who really knows this platform.

c) There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to be drawn to a stage 3 setup and a cost 3-4K for a blown turbo if YOU don't want that power. Plenty of turbo rebuilders available to provide you with an upgraded IS38 making similar power to the OEM unit (or a bit more) but a much greater reliability.

To me, apart from their unsubstantiated claims about other turbos and remaps, these guys seem like they're trying to up-sell you to a solution you were not interested in the first place just because it will mean more revenue for them, I would honestly look elsewhere.

i think you might be right. 

I've found a Skoda Dealer selling OEM brand new IS38 turbo's for £999 instead of £1,500. So I've rang the garage(tuner) up and asked, if I pay them, will they order the turbo from the Skoda dealer as it'll save me money, and they've expressed that it's not something they would do, and said that if a dealer is selling the part below RRP then there's something fishy about it.

I'm so bloody confused at the minute. I don't know if I should just order the turbo myself and have a garage that I trust fit it, and have them check over the engine and the downpipe to make sure I don't need anything else. This garage is around the corner from the original tuner, so I can take the car straight there to have the map put back to stock, and then find somewhere else reputable to put a new map on it.

Edited 19 November, 20205 yr by TheBinarySheep

1 hour ago, TheBinarySheep said:

Update.

Having spoke to another tuner, they've recommended against the littco turbo, apparently they're made with cheap chinese parts and don't have a good rep. Suggested options for an OEM turbo for £1500, or a TTE Race Turbo for a little more. They've also suggested that I get a new down pipe and cat as well, they're saying it's probably knackered after all the oil that has gone through it, and it's possible that bits from the turbo may have broke it as well.

Cost wise, I'm looking at somewhere in the region of £3,500 for a TTE turbo, down pipe/sport cat and a new remap.

This tuner is also saying that 1.6 bar boost pressure it too much, and that's the reason why people are seeing their turbo's going. I thought this was pretty much the standard boost pressure for stage 1, but they're saying it's not. 1.4 bar is what they're suggesting for stage 1.

 

What are their internet reviews like? Don't get stung again ;)

Good luck whatever you do.

41 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

 

i think you might be right. 

I've found a Skoda Dealer selling OEM brand new IS38 turbo's for £999 instead of £1,500. So I've rang the garage(tuner) up and asked, if I pay them, will they order the turbo from the Skoda dealer as it'll save me money, and they've expressed that it's not something they would do, and said that if a dealer is selling the part below RRP then there's something fishy about it.

I'm so bloody confused at the minute. I don't know if I should just order the turbo myself and have a garage that I trust fit it, and have them check over the engine and the downpipe to make sure I don't need anything else. This garage is around the corner from the original tuner, so I can take the car straight there to have the map put back to stock, and then find somewhere else reputable to put a new map on it.

You don’t need a new OEM unit. You already have one!!!!!!!

Find one of the bigger better known names for tuning. I don’t know where you are, but Revo hardware installers or Celtic tuning spring to mind. Someone a lot more reputable than the muppets your dealing with at the minute. 
I can’t remember the last time we actually had to fit a brand new turbo to anything. They are sent to someone over here we’ve reliably used for years. It’s rebuilt to OEM or upgraded spec and refitted to the vehicle again. 
It’s such a simple task to carrry out without all this nonsense your having your head filled with by the garages your talking to. 
Stop looking at makes of turbos and getting in a panic. The one you have is easily fine for stage 2 if built again correctly. 
What you need to research is a bloody useful garage instead. Even if it’s a slight hassle to get the car there, it will be worth it for many years to come instead of using complete idiots because they’re handy to you. 
Sorry, but I’m getting annoyed at the shocking advice you’ve been given locally (not forum) since this happened. 

5 minutes ago, UndertheRadar said:

You don’t need a new OEM unit. You already have one!!!!!!!

Find one of the bigger better known names for tuning. I don’t know where you are, but Revo hardware installers or Celtic tuning spring to mind. Someone a lot more reputable than the muppets your dealing with at the minute. 
I can’t remember the last time we actually had to fit a brand new turbo to anything. They are sent to someone over here we’ve reliably used for years. It’s rebuilt to OEM or upgraded spec and refitted to the vehicle again. 
It’s such a simple task to carrry out without all this nonsense your having your head filled with by the garages your talking to. 
Stop looking at makes of turbos and getting in a panic. The one you have is easily fine for stage 2 if built again correctly. 
What you need to research is a bloody useful garage instead. Even if it’s a slight hassle to get the car there, it will be worth it for many years to come instead of using complete idiots because they’re handy to you. 
Sorry, but I’m getting annoyed at the shocking advice you’ve been given locally (not forum) since this happened. 

The issue is I'm getting so much conflicting information. I've got one tuner saying the the turbo housing will be knackered, so it's going to need a full new turbo rather than a rebuilt, which is why I've been looking at new turbo's.

I've spoke to another North East tuner who I found recommended in a post on here, and they've suggested a littco turbo and said they've had no issues with them. So I have @newbie69, my original tuner and a second tuner telling me they're ok, and 1 tuner telling me they're not.

I've fired off an enquiry to the closest REVO dealer to see what they suggest. It's 30 mile away, but hopefully with the REVO brand behind them, they know what they are talking about.

 

As I wrote earlier, first think of your long term plans about the car and the performance you're after and the decisions will come much easier than you think right now.

One thing is for sure and you should start from there: You will be paying money for a turbo (either to rebuild or replace) so you want to make the best use of that money. Opting for a brand new IS38, even if just 1 out of 100 of them fail, is NOT the best way to spend £1000 since the same amount of money can get you a reinforced and worry-free IS38 hybrid that could safely run up to 400-420bhp depending on the tune.

If your old tuner could provide a warranty in case you went with him and a 380X upgrade then it could be an affordable option, after all he has to be really bad to cause an upgraded turbo to fail, if we assume it was his map that caused it (no way to tell really).

However, you might have lost confidence to him all-together which means you should "de-couple" the different steps: Taking off the current turbo, putting the /repaired/replaced one back in, remapping which could be more tricky than it sounds and would take up more time in total. In that case you'd need to find a specialist you can trust (I;m not convinced from the ones you've been talking to)

Unfortunately I'm not from/at UK so I don't know personally many specialists to recommend, hopefully you can get some recommendations from locals/nationals. You might want to open a thread in the General Car section of the forum asking for VAG specialists (with a proven track record) that could offer this work as a complete work package or at least the part of installing the turbo and remapping as the rebuilding is a different expertise.

At least UK is one of the best countries for such stuff, you would be much more hopeless in other EU countries from my experience...
 

As much as I like REVO, and I do currently run their map and it's awesome, I'm not sure they would provide an ideal solution for your particular situation. As far as I know they don't provide rebuilds, they've even stopped their Turbocharger exchange program and only use brand new new units now so they would most probably direct you to their complete stage 3 program which means  $$$$  (and I reckon you're rather after getting back on the road with a minimum cost and not after 100bhp more?!) 

It goes without saying that a thorough examination should take place from a a specialist before putting anything back on in order to assess fully the current situation.

9 minutes ago, newbie69 said:

As much as I like REVO, and I do currently run their map and it's awesome, I'm not sure they would provide an ideal solution for your particular situation. As far as I know they don't provide rebuilds, they've even stopped their Turbocharger exchange program and only use brand new new units now so they would most probably direct you to their complete stage 3 program which means  $$$$  (and I reckon you're rather after getting back on the road with a minimum cost and not after 100bhp more?!) 

It goes without saying that a thorough examination should take place from a a specialist before putting anything back on in order to assess fully the current situation.

I agree.

Out of interest, do you know is the L380X turbo from Littco from £750 a complete turbo, or an exchange/rebuilt? I'm just concerned that if it is a rebuild of your OEM turbo, how that works if your housing is no good?

Edited 19 November, 20205 yr by TheBinarySheep

A lot of the Revo dealers work out of their own quite competent garages. Some only install revo software and others fit hardware as well. The hardware installers will not just install revo products, and will normally have a fully functional garage facility for normal servicing work. They will though be used to the tuning end of things and be more aware of who to use for certain products and rebuild specifics. So they won’t just want to fit a new “Revo” turbo. There will be other very good installers with the same ability and knowledge. 
You could also try some of the VW forums for the likes of the golf or scirocco R’s and see who is tuning and rebuilding units for those guys and girls in your area. 
At this point and until stripped and proven otherwise, assume your housing is intact or repairable during a rebuild. 

Edited 19 November, 20205 yr by UndertheRadar

6 minutes ago, UndertheRadar said:

A lot of the Revo dealers work out of their own quite competent garages. Some only install revo software and others fit hardware as well. The hardware installers will not just install revo products, and will normally have a fully functional garage facility for normal servicing work. They will though be used to the tuning end of things and be more aware of who to use for certain products and rebuild specifics. So they won’t just want to fit a new “Revo” turbo. There will be other very good installers with the same ability and knowledge. 
You could also try some of the VW forums for the likes of the golf or scirocco R’s and see who is tuning and rebuilding units for those guys and girls in your area. 
At this point and until stripped and proven otherwise, assume your housing is intact or repairable during a rebuild. 

The REVO dealer I've contacted is a VAG specialist too, so from that I'm assuming they'll provide services to repair the car as well.

14 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

I agree.

Out of interest, do you know is the L380X turbo from Littco from £750 a complete turbo, or an exchange/rebuilt? I'm just concerned that if it is a rebuild of your OEM turbo, how that works if your housing is no good?

From what I can read on the website 750 is the Supercore upgrade, meaning re-using your stock housing, and 1150 is for a whole brand new unit including the actuator. Still at 1150 a much better value than any OEM IS38 to be honest.

I would expect Littco to examine the housing and advice about its integrity before taking on the upgrade process, you should just ask them directly. In your place this is probably the path i'd be taking if I wanted to keep the cost reasonable, meaning a L380X with either a Supercore or Complete upgrade depending on your housing's condition.

Oh and i would definitely expect my original tuner to not charge my extra for re-tuning, aside from the installation cost. Only fair considering all things really.

 

Response from the REVO dealer.

Essentially says, he wouldn't entertain a used or reconditioned turbo on the EA888 engine. Stock turbo is easily good for 400hp and says they've done loads of stage 2 tunes on the IS38 without issue. Said the key thing with the tune is thermal and overspool protection, which he says a lot of custom tuners "don't do".

He says if I can get an OEM turbo for £999 then go for that. 

Also suggested as an option, fitting a downpipe and get a low boost stage 2 map so it doesn't need an intercooler upgrade.
 

It seems no one has the same opinion when it comes to the turbo itself, some say Littco, some say no.

43 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

Response from the REVO dealer.

Essentially says, he wouldn't entertain a used or reconditioned turbo on the EA888 engine. Stock turbo is easily good for 400hp and says they've done loads of stage 2 tunes on the IS38 without issue. Said the key thing with the tune is thermal and overspool protection, which he says a lot of custom tuners "don't do".

He says if I can get an OEM turbo for £999 then go for that. 

Also suggested as an option, fitting a downpipe and get a low boost stage 2 map so it doesn't need an intercooler upgrade.
 

It seems no one has the same opinion when it comes to the turbo itself, some say Littco, some say no.

That sounds much more like a "REVO dealer" reply rather than a "VAG specialist" one, but I can't say I'm shocked. REVO are doing thousand of stage 1 and 2 remaps, they can't possibly claim the OEM turbo is bad, can they? Not doubting REVO's map is a well developped one, but the fact is we've seen IS38s fail even in stock form, hardly VW's thermal and overspool management to blame there... Also, I don't think I would find anyone in the tuning groups saying they'd spend 1000GBP on a stock IS38 instead of an upgraded one from a well-known specialist, and I do mean no-one!

Also, forget Littco for a moment and just consider that one of the biggest and most well-known turbo specialists/rebuilders and manufacturers for our cars in Germany, that do thousands of turbo upgrades every year, are accepting your turbo for an upgrade regardless of it working or not as they replace everything inside. If they, with the reputation and knowledge they posses, can accept a blown unit and stand by its reliability and performance after the rebuild then that says it all.

I am currently awaiting more information about turbo specialists in the UK from some sources so I shall hopefully be able to share more contacts tomorrow.

Edited 19 November, 20205 yr by newbie69

If you don’t mind sending it across the water, look up MCM turbos over here in Ballymoney. Contact Peter and ask him for his opinion. 

Someone on another forum has mentioned noises from the car, and it's just occurred to me that the guy that transported the car home last night tried to start it to see if it would drive onto his trailer. It turned over, but then made a quick screech noise. I've been out to check oil and water levels, and there's no oil in the engine at all, which is understandable given the turbo failure....but.... I am really hoping this doesn't mean that the engine will be buggered as well! Knowing my luck it'll be seized.

Edited 19 November, 20205 yr by TheBinarySheep

Has anyone pulled the plugs and scoped the cylinders?

Did they check to make sure the turbo wasn’t a byproduct of no oil rather than no oil being a byproduct of a blown turbo. Just to be sure and cover your bases. 
While the plugs were out I’d isolate the fuel pump and do a compression test as well. Obviously after topping with oil and turning by hand first, but after checking the cylinders and tops of the pistons. 

At the minute, no one has done anything. The car is still at my home while I decide who I want to do the repair.

I think I'm going to ask the original tuner to collect the car tomorrow, take it back to his workshop to first check the engine over to make sure it's ok before we continue with any work. Once we know the engine is (hopefully) ok, then I might just get a littco turbo fitted to get the car back on the road. Once we're up and running I'll need to decide what I'm doing with the map. I may just ask the tuner to revert back to stock for now, I don't know.

I might be nuts letting them work in the car, I don't know, but it's literally a 5 minute walk from my home, and they access to all the VAG systems and work on these cars every day. There's two parts to the business you see, there's the VAG specialist, and then the remapping place next door.

Edited 19 November, 20205 yr by TheBinarySheep

If that’s what you go with, will littco not refurb your blown unit to drop costs even more? The 380X you mentioned is a modified is38 unit anyway. Ask the question and see if they clip them or not. 
 

36 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

At the minute, no one has done anything. The car is still at my home while I decide who I want to do the repair.

I think I'm going to ask the original tuner to collect the car tomorrow, take it back to his workshop to first check the engine over to make sure it's ok before we continue with any work. Once we know the engine is (hopefully) ok, then I might just get a littco turbo fitted to get the car back on the road. Once we're up and running I'll need to decide what I'm doing with the map. I may just ask the tuner to revert back to stock for now, I don't know.

I might be nuts letting them work in the car, I don't know, but it's literally a 5 minute walk from my home, and they access to all the VAG systems and work on these cars every day. There's two parts to the business you see, there's the VAG specialist, and then the remapping place next door.

 

Shame this whole saga has happened. 

 

Having read through all your posts and the various recommendations from multiple garages, I think you should try to stay calm and sleep on this for a few nights and not do anything rash. That is if you can afford to have the car out of action for a bit longer. 

 

I say this because I feel you don't trust the tuner that mapped the car recently but now tempted to go back for the convenience. It is not convenient if they f it up again.

 

I am not sure where you are, but I am pretty sure there will be competent VAG specialists with good reputation not too far where you are unless you live in the sticks like the faroe islands! 

 

I am inline with the other members here and say you'd really want to go for an upgraded turbo (non stock) regardless of what map you plan on putting on after the fix. More so if you want stage 1 power. And if finances allow, since turbo is gonna be out, do the downpipe at the same time.