So last night I could not get on a charger before setting off this morning.   So a 50kW battery and 45kW usable.  I was at 90  % so 40kW.  Car showing 190 miles just because it was doing 4 plus miles a kWh before parking up.  I did 80 miles in 90 minutes at 10*oC and got to Stirling Park and ride with 30 miles range.    With luck 1 of 4 rapids was available and working.     1/3rd of the 60 or so fast / AC,s are occupied and there are cars roaming waiting to get on the Rapids.   I will charge for 30 mins and move on and try a single charger site in another 40 miles for 30 mins.  If not available I will have enough to get home.  If this temp was nearer freezing things would be very different.  3 miles a kWh is ok.  Getting nearer 2 miles is a real pity.     I meet a owner of a New Mini Electric yesterday and he is not getting 100 miles from a full charge in quite warm weather.  He was used to 150 plus miles with his Leaf he had for 3 years.  

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

So last night I could not get on a charger before setting off this morning.   So a 50kW battery and 45kW usable.  I was at 90  % so 40kW.

 

Can you explain the underlined bit to me please?

 

10°c does not sound that cold to me in the scheme of things, does it really half the expected range?

 

Its clearly not following a straight line graph using the Kelvin scale, does it mean that you would have zero range at 0°C?

If 100% is 45kWh in the battery and you only have 90% of a charge you are as near to having 40 kWh.    You are not going to run the battery to empty.      Not half in the same road use.   But half when you go from 60 mpg average speed camera roads where lucky to do 50 mph, then getting on a motorway.  Very different power use before considering temp drop. Also staring off with a cooler battety.   10 Degrees c is 5 degrees cooler that 15 degrees c which is a nice temp for efficiency.  20 degrees not so much in my car.   Tomorrow over the Cairngorm route I am going it might be 5 degrees c.  And the electric used will be much more, except I will be going over Cairn o Mouth.  So climbing quick and regenning for 25 miles nearly before climbing to the Lecht and not charging much there as I can regen enough to the coast and get enough energy left to get back to Tomintoul or Aboyne and a charge then home.  At 0*oC I would need to probably charge at least 4 times to do that trip.  Maybe getting less than 2 miles a kWh. 

Edited 19 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

90% of 45 kWh usable storage capacity translate to 40.5 kWh energy stored. 

 

The thing you got to remember is that there's very little excess heat from the powertrain. Polestar engineer said along the line "the grill for ICE car is the reminder how inefficient it is." Most EV today, will simply dump all powertrain heat outside and use energy from battery to heat up the cabin. 

AFAIK (only?) Tesla do heat scavenging where any and all excess heat from powertrain are used to heat the cabin. If you supercharge and heat up the battery, the rest of the journey will use the heat from battery (a huge thermal mass) to heat the cabin. 

 

Also, lower temperature means denser air for the car to push through. 

Finally, battery has less capacity to store energy in winter. There's about 1 kWh difference between 20%->fully charged for my Leaf years back when I took note of it. 

 

So lollol is right to judge EV range based on winter range. I consider my Model Y LR to have ~240 miles worst-case range in winter, rated 330. I drove my usual commute 29 miles, moderate-heavy traffic, 65-70mph, got 3.5 mi/kWh from un-preconditioned car. Extrapolate to 270 miles range at ~11c.  

Lower temperature means less friction on roads, less grip, less traction.    Cold roads can be dry roads.  The nice cold air with a ICE turbo engine when up to temp can mean very economic in cold dry air.   Not enough consider that when they think winter means worse economy in liquid fuel vehicles.  They can perform well.  Hot conditions require ice vehicles to cool oil.  That uses energy.   Swings and roundabouts.    Ps. I had been on winter tyres for 2 years.  I would not be without them.   Charging now and it is 6*oC and peeing down.  55 mph on a good regenning road home now and I might get 4 miles per kWh for the next 20 miles.  

 

EDIT,  No cost to charge, Perth & Kinross. No time limit.

Stirling still free to charge. no time limit.

Just got 3 miles per kWh on run home.

 

Edited 19 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

Edinburgh Airiport Park & Ride.  Scotland's Capital City and people are getting fined £30 for going over 30 minutes on Rapid Chargers. 35 pence kWh.

Poor signage, poor reliability, poor maintenance, even poor mobile reception. 

Money spent, lots of money, and yet very very unreliable.   

The Fast Chargers might not even have ID numbers on them to be able to start on a CPS Phone App if you have no card. 25 pence kWh. 12 hour limit.

22 kW chargers 30 pence a kWh, 3 hour limit.

 

Edited 19 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

Just wondering if it's worth it vs the cost of rapid charging elsewhere...

 

At 35p and £30 on off charge it is if you have a 100kWh car vs the now 70p at some of the other major charging centres.

Obviously it's not, but that's worrying that it's close enough to be almost worthwhile.

 

I was 4 miles miles away at the PodPoint charging first.  40 pence a kWh.  21.4 for £8.56 I think it was.  30 mins at the Park and ride usually about £6.20.   the nearest non CPS BP charger,s are up about 69 pence and not that easy to come and go from if the roads are busy.    EDIT, 65 pence Rapid and 69 pence Ultra Rapid.     TESLA Supercharger at Airport or Tesla Dealership.   Last price showing if paying 51 pence a kWh. 

Edited 19 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

I am even more confused now, you said:

5 hours ago, roottoot said:

So a 50kW battery and 45kW usable.  I was at 90  % so 40kW. 

 

And then:

3 hours ago, roottoot said:

If 100% is 45kWh in the battery and you only have 90% of a charge you are as near to having 40 kWh. 

 

Was the 50kw a mistaake and you actually have a 45kwh battery?

 

Can you understand my confusion?

 

Perhaps you meant that your battery is old so no longer has the full usable capacity.

 

It might be me, I am day 3 with Covid and my thinking is very muzzy, on my best day I struggle to follow some of your postings.

PSA / Stellantis say the battery is 50 kWh and usable is 45 kWh.   All nonsense shoing 50 kW since if it is empty you can only get it to take in 45 kWh.

 

There are some manufacturers that are now publishing the just the 'usable capacity'. 

 

(When i had LPG vehicles the nonsense people could not get their heads around was a Tanks Capacity and not filling to 100% and the need to leave 20%, 

but then that was about heat and a liquid / gas)

 

Since my car got an Update which supposedly makes it more efficient all it has done is shows a possible range if the car was really running efficiently.

They seem to have given the battery more protection. It is charging quick for longer but really does nor want to take in the last 2% anymore.

That is OK because that is needed for Regen and if that 2% is not available because the battery was at 100% you need to use your brakes until the battery had some capacity available.

 

100% is still not 50 kWh. 

 

Edited 19 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

Vauxhall UK appear to have an error in their advertising.  Showing Corsa Electric MY23 with 57 kW.

If they did actually have that battery capacity and 52 kW usable that would help greatly with range. With the cars with narrower tyres. Crap ECO tyres.

So have I understood this right, 50kw battery capacity but a protection system that will not allow any discharge once the battery has discharged to 5kw?

 

Akin to a 50l fuel tank but the ECU cutting the fuelling and stopping the engine when the sender is showing 5 litres remaining to avoid fuel pump damage and subsequent damge to the injection system?

 

When it shows 90% charge is that when the battery is at 45kw, 40.5 kw or 45.5kw (90% of the maximum charge it could put in from the 5kw baseline plus the 5kw?

 

Or is it like every other battery capacity indicator I have ever seen totally unreliable and at best a guess?

Edited 19 October, 20223 yr by J.R.

From new showing 100% there is 45 kW available.

 

If you were getting 4 miles per kWh you would get 4 x 45 so 180 miles.  not 4 x 50 so 200 miles.

 

it is 90% of 45 kW i started with today,

so 40.5 kWh available.  So 4 miles per kW means 162 miles.   3 miles per kWh 121.5 miles.     

 

......................

Way back in 2020 the car would have gone for 229 miles if it could have kept getting 5 miles plus per kWh. 

It was getting that efficiency before getting charged,

If the 50 kWh was usable then it could have done 250 miles, that would be a wish and a dream with lots of going down hills without having to go up any. 

 

Bottom.

In Cold weather and even on a run 100 miles might not be achievable without starting with a battery as full as you can get it and a pre heated battery.

 

Edited 19 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

So the motor efficiency reduces with age as well then or is it simply kidology to use one of your phrases in that 45kw showing after a few years is not the real 45kw that it was when new?

 

Battery self discharge while driving?

 

And then there is taking more than 45kw from the electric meter to put less than 45kw into the battery.

 

So eventually you buy a new vehicle which on paper does more miles per kw like the chap with the Mini and get screwed over again.

The big lie!

 

 

 

 

Never heard of the motors efficiency reducing.  There are plenty 10 year old plus EV's about, and battery and controllers being replaced, probably motors as well. 

Videos in this thread early on. 

 

There will be degradation and seemingly that is 2.3% a year according to a study of 6,500 EV's. 

No idea which or where or how charged.  Plenty do only Rapid Charging of Taxis and report no issues. 

That 2.3% could be nonsense. it was done by Geotab a telematics company. 

 

There are dealers that check battery condition of vehicles before resale, and Auction Companies might well need to as well. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

So the motor efficiency reduces with age as well then or is it simply kidology to use one of your phrases in that 45kw showing after a few years is not the real 45kw that it was when new?

 

Battery self discharge while driving?

 

And then there is taking more than 45kw from the electric meter to put less than 45kw into the battery.

 

So eventually you buy a new vehicle which on paper does more miles per kw like the chap with the Mini and get screwed over again.

Motor wear is negligible, there shouldn't be any motor efficiency loss. The reduction in range is purely inside the battery, it can no longer store as much energy as it ages.

 

In this example, when new, the total capacity is 50 kWh (kW is power, similar to bhp. kWh is energy, because power * time = energy)

But manufacturer specify 10% as buffer. It is probably a mix of top and bottom buffer. Total usable capacity when new is 45 kWh.

In practical terms, usable capacity is all we care about.

As the car ages, it may only able to retain ~80% of original capacity after 8 years (this 80% after 8 years data comes from my 8 yo Nissan Leaf, newer cars will probably do better). This means 80% * 45 kWh = 36 kWh of usable capacity left in the battery.

That is called battery degradation.

 

Battery degradation are due to many factors, main 2 are age and charge cycles.

 

Over my 5 years of the Leaf ownership, I had not observed driving efficiency (mi/kWh) reduce as the vehicle ages. But I had observed it take less energy from the plug due to battery can hold less and less charge. As result, less range.

41 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Motor wear is negligible, there shouldn't be any motor efficiency loss. The reduction in range is purely inside the battery, it can no longer store as much energy as it ages.

In this example, when new, the total capacity is 50 kWh (kW is power, similar to bhp. kWh is energy, because power * time = energy)

But manufacturer specify 10% as buffer. It is probably a mix of top and bottom buffer. Total usable capacity when new is 45 kWh.

In practical terms, usable capacity is all we care about.

As the car ages, it may only able to retain ~80% of original capacity after 8 years (this 80% after 8 years data comes from my 8 yo Nissan Leaf, newer cars will probably do better). This means 80% * 45 kWh = 36 kWh of usable capacity left in the battery.

That is called battery degradation.

Battery degradation are due to many factors, main 2 are age and charge cycles.

Over my 5 years of the Leaf ownership, I had not observed driving efficiency (mi/kWh) reduce as the vehicle ages. But I had observed it take less energy from the plug due to battery can hold less and less charge. As result, less range.

 

As well as age and charge cycles I would say that the speed of those charges is very important ie if Rapid charging compared to slow charging .  

 

Rapid charging as the norm, compared to overnight slow charging, will reduce the capacity of the battery much faster.  

 

Batteries that are rapidly charged most the time can lose 10% of their capacity in say 40k Kms where as slow charging batteries could still have 95 % capacity after 100k kms.

 

Zoe ZE40 has a real capacity of 44.1 kWh when new, or as high as 47 kw in the last of the ZE40s  https://cleantechnica.com/2016/10/11/details-renault-zoe-ze-40-battery-packs/

 

Buffers can be quite large and used if charging past the 100% SOC shown and can go below 0% too with the Zoe.

 

Still not a nice place to drive with and practically keeping between 10% and 90%  is optimal but that gives a true range of about 200 miles in summer and 150 miles in winter here in the Midlands.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This crap can go on for weeks, even months when local councils are spending public money. 

The Charger installed, powered up for weeks and operating, bays painted in a stupid way.  does not say 'Electric Charging bays', 

one sign to the left hand drive, nothing to the right bay, but matters not as really not in operation. Not that it says that, just the barriers there and the Temp notice saying awaiting longer cables. 

 

Bottom pic was taken on 3rd September 2022.

It was powered up then and working. 

 

Edited 21 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

At least Norway has got it right..............

 

Recommend looking at the Youtube videos of Bjorn Nyland in just about all the EVs there are.  His real world testing in low temperatures are proper tough.  

 

Pi553d off.     Charge place Scotland seems to be having issues.  So tried 3 rapid chargers that are not authorising card.  App not working. Girvan harbour,s single rapid has been off for weeks now.  So sitting for 2 hours charging on a fast / Slow 7kW charger to have enough charge to get 100 miles to a reliable charger later tonight.  I will use a commercial charger and pay if I need to in CPS is still having issues but choices are off my route.   It is so easy for the best laid plans to g ok Tits up. 

20 hours ago, toot said:

Pi553d off.     Charge place Scotland seems to be having issues.  So tried 3 rapid chargers that are not authorising card.  App not working. Girvan harbour,s single rapid has been off for weeks now.  So sitting for 2 hours charging on a fast / Slow 7kW charger to have enough charge to get 100 miles to a reliable charger later tonight.  I will use a commercial charger and pay if I need to in CPS is still having issues but choices are off my route.   It is so easy for the best laid plans to g ok Tits up. 

CPS was down yesterday: 

https://www.speakev.com/threads/chargeplace-scotland-network-is-down-01-12-2022.173855/

 

It's so sad to see systems being this badly designed where a single point of failure almost prevents people from continuing their journey. 

Going like a fair again at Stirling CastleView Park and ride.

As usual the cars left for 'Long time mister' on the 43 kW AC chargers.  Luckily i got on a charger that someone had just left.

I was not to know the Tesla on the AC was just left their while the owner went for a walk while waiting on the CCS.

Then the communications with chargers went wonky and there was the old Rapid OOO.    It is a bit or a carry on. 

 

Might as well give the Taxi Firm some publicity.

Not really cricket to just leave the car with a full charge and locked it. 

Edited 2 December, 20223 yr by toot

SKY News is running a story tonight on TESLA's drivers charging or queuing to charge while travelling on the M5 on Tuesday.  Coming off the M5 to charge obviously...

 

A real world issue as so many TESLA are being bought in the UK.  Holiday times, & a real world issue for others maybe with EV's other than a TESLA. 

Indeed, I drove to Leicester on 26th and back (N London) on 27th. On the way back the 3 possible supercharger locations were all quite full, 2, 1 or 0 available when I looked. Plus queues going into services with 30min delay throughout M1.

 

Luckily I had gotten a few hours of free charging at Asda, next to Space Centre we visited. Powering my return journey for free, allowing me to drive back without needing any top up.

2 hours ago, toot said:

SKY News is running a story tonight on TESLA's drivers charging or queuing to charge while travelling on the M5 on Tuesday.  Coming off the M5 to charge obviously...

 

A real world issue as so many TESLA are being bought in the UK.  Holiday times, & a real world issue for others maybe with EV's other than a TESLA. 

 

 

A day ago I saw it on the web & masses of photos...Tebay services, a Waitrose down south & another place...one queue had 40ish cars & about 2 1/2hrs long..

 

 

Looks like Australia had similar problems also:-

 

Tesla owners forced to wait 90 minutes for charge in Wodonga | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site

 

I'll stick to my efficient & very clean burning petrol engine...longest I've ever had to queue in this country for petrol is 15mins.....

 

 

Anyway electric cars will eventually get cheaper when they ditch expensive lithium batteries & use sodium batteries...