2 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

It is more about NOX and THC (and PMs) the concentration is now.  Extract from the UK VCADATA 2017

https://carfueldata.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/downloads/download.aspx?rg=aug2017

 

Manufacturer	Model	Description	Transmission	Engine Capacity	Fuel Type	Emissions NOx [mg/km]	THC + NOx Emissions [mg/km]	Particulates [No.] [mg/km]
SKODA	Superb Saloon	2.0 TDI 150PS DSG Stop-Start SE	D6	1968	Diesel	62	83	0.03
SKODA	Superb Saloon	1.4 TSI ACT 150PS DSG Stop-Start SE	D6	1395	Petrol	37

I know, the point I was making is that we have come a long way from the poorly designed and heavily polluting cars we used to drive, and they are still getting better. I did say I that I would hate to know how much pollution those early cars were producing

7 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I said what I said based on the evidence that I thought was new evidence.
 

It may not be new evidence, if so, I apologise. 
 

However, your latest post (quoted) did not present any new evidence what so ever. Again, you use internet speculation as facts. And trying to identify cars using photos of burnt remains? Playing detectives are we?

 

I implore you to wait for official reports. 
 

Where have I ignored actual factual evidence? 
 

I have repeatedly ignored your speculations, that’s for sure. If you feel that is wrong approach to a factual discussion, I’m sorry for you. 

Last post on this with you, just go back, re-read what I wrote and watch those 2 videos I posted and actually pay close attention to what he says, and you should then hopefully understand that neither he nor I are saying anything conclusive other than that car in the photo is a Porsche Taycan, if you cannot decipher what the car is or was from the photo of the shell and the photo of the car side by side then that is your problem, not mine. I also said that assuming the photo was not a fake, but the only other car ship that could have photographed on, which had a fire was the Felicity Ace, and that has sunk, so its highly unlikely that it was that ship.

 

YES we will have to wait for the official report to be published, and I respectfully suggest that you do the same thing instead of leaping the EV defence every time as if I said the was started by an EV which is not what I said, just go back and check and be honest with yourself.

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I know, the point I was making is that we have come a long way from the poorly designed and heavily polluting cars we used to drive, and they are still getting better. I did say I that I would hate to know how much pollution those early cars were producing

 

Petrol cars are inherently cleaner in terms of NOX and THC and NOX combination figure and most forget that petrol are even held to a higher standard so your 2 litre common rail diesel dies not meet the standard of Euro 6 petrol which has a lower limit ie 60 mg/km rather than diesels 80 mg/km.

 

Several big cities across the world, and some national fixed bans for diesels in all it big cities India plans, are set to ban all diesel vehicles 

https://www.prinsautogas.com/en/news/four-major-cities-move-ban-diesel-vehicles-2025

 

Diesel engines in cities just are too dirty to continue to allow and that is Euro 6 and even the up-coming Euro 7 standard also hence cities adopting the complete ban of this engine design.  The compression ignition engine but operates at so high a compression ratio it does this NOX creation that is inherently bad and hence diesels are not even held to the same standard as petrol but increasingly cities see that diesels cannot and will not meet low levels of NOX, THCs, PMs hence the plan to ban all of the them no matter what Euro standard or equivalent in Asia, US as well as Europe. 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The leaders of four major global cities say they will stop the use of all diesel-powered cars and trucks by the middle of the next decade.

The mayors of Paris, Mexico City, Madrid and Athens say they are implementing the ban to improve air quality..........

Diesel engines contribute to the problem in two key ways - through the production of particulate matter (PM) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). Very fine soot PM can penetrate the lungs and can contribute to cardiovascular illness and death.  Nitrogen oxides can help form ground level ozone and this can exacerbate breathing difficulties, even for people without a history of respiratory problems.

As the evidence has mounted, environmental groups have used the courts to try and enforce clear air standards and regulations. In the UK, campaigners have recently had success in forcing the government to act more quickly.  Now, mayors from a number of major cities with well-known air quality problems have decided to use their authority to clamp down on the use of diesel.

In the UK, campaigners are calling for London's mayor to commit to phase out diesel vehicles from London by 2025.
Analysis   The diesel ban is hugely significant. Carmakers will look at this decision and know it's just a matter of time before other city mayors follow suit.
 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Last post on this with you, just go back, re-read what I wrote and watch those 2 videos I posted and actually pay close attention to what he says, and you should then hopefully understand that neither he nor I are saying anything conclusive other than that car in the photo is a Porsche Taycan, if you cannot decipher what the car is or was from the photo of the shell and the photo of the car side by side then that is your problem, not mine. I also said that assuming the photo was not a fake, but the only other car ship that could have photographed on, which had a fire was the Felicity Ace, and that has sunk, so its highly unlikely that it was that ship.

 

YES we will have to wait for the official report to be published, and I respectfully suggest that you do the same thing instead of leaping the EV defence every time as if I said the was started by an EV which is not what I said, just go back and check and be honest with yourself.

Ok. So in summary of your para 1: you use a single photo of burnt out cars, you decipher that to be an EV and say this is conclusive evidence. 
 

Whereas the way I drew my conclusion from evidence I posted was not wrong, strangely you seem to have a problem with that. But I was wrong to post (what I thought was) the latest development that “no EV was burnt” as evidence, because it isn’t concrete and conclusive.  I “liked” your post pointing out the fact my evidence was non conclusive evidence and I agree we should wait for investigation report. 
 

However, I do feel sorry for you, that you view my post as defending EV’s. It was nothing more than pointing out your methodology flaw, like any good evaluative scientific paper. 
Also, in yesterday’s posts, no where have I even hinted that you suggested fire was started by EV, this thought never even crossed my mind, where did you drew that from? 

 

 

Speaking of defending EV’s, this post is, because you posted a myth 

8 hours ago, wyx087 said:

This is only true if you recharge solely use a fossil fuel powered grid.

 

Again, I refer you to many sources:

 

US EPA:  https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

 

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change/

 

MIT the university: https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-electric-vehicles-definitely-better-climate-gas-powered-cars

 

IEEE: https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2659316104

Titled:   Why EVs Aren't a Climate Change Panacea  

Unless people change their behaviors, we won't hit 2050 net zero emissions targets

 

This IEEE Spectrum article somewhat echoes your view that it will not solve climate crisis. But it effectively says one of primary reason is the slow adoption speed.

The rest of article goes into the second reason, for example, emissions in other sectors (not transport, which is kind of off-topic IMO) and EV manufacturing supply chain concerns.

 

There are many similar balanced articles in IET E&T magazine.

For example this issue is especially talking about EV's:

https://eandt.theiet.org/tags/volume-17-issue-9

 

On 14/08/2023 at 14:54, Graham Butcher said:

When you come across information that has been researched by various professors from well known and respected universities, it would be a daft person to ignore their findings because it disagreed with their own opinions.

We will see how Norway gets on with the ban on buying new Petrol or Diesel cars in 2025.

 

As for Australia they are a special case, do what they want or do not want but there must be plenty cars that are in cities and only in cities.

Just like in Europe or the UK.

 

 

 

 

 

Head for thinking,

what a shame there are those about without the ability to use common sense or listen to those that work with stuff and know what they are talking about..

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 19 August, 20232 yr by toot

2 hours ago, toot said:

We will see how Norway gets on with the ban on buying new Petrol or Diesel cars in 2025.

 

As for Australia they are a special case, do what they want or do not want but there must be plenty cars that are in cities and only in cities.

Just like in Europe or the UK.

 

 

 

 

 

Head for thinking,

what a shame there are those about without the ability to use common sense or listen to those that work with stuff and know what they are talking about..

 

 

 

I think banning pure diesel and petrol cars is a non issue as all vehicles should have some degree of electrical hybrid system.

 

I have been very sceptical on having just a kWh or two of battery and electric motors than just give propulsion of 60 kph or so but it bloody works.

 

Having just added a Clio ETECH to the family stable and it is Impressive.  It can be on EV mode 80% in urban scenario.

 

It is obvious to me that Renault just tweak up the amount of battery to continue to drive down emissions.  Austral has 2 kWh battery instead of the Clio's 1 kwh, phev Renaults versions have 10 kWh batteries.

 

The EV battery, as energy density improves by 10% per annum and cost down by 20% per annum adding battery to cars with ICE is quite cheap and pays for itself quickly in my experience.

 

Only cars like K cars should be pure ice without electrical assist and energy recovery IMO.

 

11 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Only cars like K cars should be pure ice without electrical assist and energy recovery IMO.

They are perfect as EV's.

 

If they shrunk Leaf down to K car size, eg. give it a Chademo for V2H, I'd be all over it. One car for the city, one for occasionally needing 2 cars and doing long trips.

 

I'm sure you have seen this video:

 

10 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

They are perfect as EV's.

 

If they shrunk Leaf down to K car size, eg. give it a Chademo for V2H, I'd be all over it. One car for the city, one for occasionally needing 2 cars and doing long trips.

 

I'm sure you have seen this video:

 

Not so sure.  £10k for a car that does 36 mph.

Toyota and all the Japanese manufacturers are toast based on present trajectory.

 

The Chinese, and with TESLA doing their thing too in conjunction with CATL battery tech will sweep up world wide economics and only ultra protectionism will allow them to continue to exist in their own market and those markets that are also not allowing the Chinese and TESLA to flooded the vehicle market with such low cost but good spec vehicle the Japanese and the Western car companies not even to be able to get close on price so like now they will produce EVs at a loss until they go out of business or withdraw to just make vehicle in a narrow category where they can actually make enough money to continue.  VW know they must change or die, Stellantis not so much it appear, Renault trying to work more closely with the Chinese as with the Dacia Spring.  BMW, Merc and Audi trying to do deals with the Chinese which if they fail better hope for some EU protectionism.

 

Japan and West better hope than aerospace, robotics and those few industries China does not dominate are enough to provide a living.

 

With exception of North Circular, I think a 30mph or faster EV with proper seats and doors will do very well in the city. I've seen a few G-wiz around the city back in the day.

 

Second hand, of course, will always present batter value. But think of the cheapness when cars like Ami gets to good value age.

 

I mean, it's only for school runs and all roads are 30mph or slower. The smaller the car the easier to nip around in traffic and park. Only problem is my wife want 5 seats in case she need to bus relatives around, less than once in a blue moon. So we got 2 regular sized car taking up space on the drive and roads. I know this specialise the car type of thinking isn't for everyone, including my dear wife.......

37 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

With exception of North Circular, I think a 30mph or faster EV with proper seats and doors will do very well in the city. I've seen a few G-wiz around the city back in the day.

 

Second hand, of course, will always present batter value. But think of the cheapness when cars like Ami gets to good value age.

 

I mean, it's only for school runs and all roads are 30mph or slower. The smaller the car the easier to nip around in traffic and park. Only problem is my wife want 5 seats in case she need to bus relatives around, less than once in a blue moon. So we got 2 regular sized car taking up space on the drive and roads. I know this specialise the car type of thinking isn't for everyone, including my dear wife.......

 

Keep the Ami topped up charge, where the regen does not come in and stop the Ami doing more than 45 kph, 28 mph, and you can see 70 kph, 44 mph and even someone in US apparently did 70 mph back hacking the electric motor controller, over 110 kph.

 

But beware, see video below this first one of turn 6 at Monaco !  Not a high speed corning machine.  Meant for 14 year olds without a licence.

 

 

 

Edited 19 August, 20232 yr by lol-lol

19 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Petrol cars are inherently cleaner in terms of NOX and THC and NOX combination figure and most forget that petrol are even held to a higher standard so your 2 litre common rail diesel dies not meet the standard of Euro 6 petrol which has a lower limit ie 60 mg/km rather than diesels 80 mg/km.

 

Several big cities across the world, and some national fixed bans for diesels in all it big cities India plans, are set to ban all diesel vehicles 

https://www.prinsautogas.com/en/news/four-major-cities-move-ban-diesel-vehicles-2025

 

Diesel engines in cities just are too dirty to continue to allow and that is Euro 6 and even the up-coming Euro 7 standard also hence cities adopting the complete ban of this engine design.  The compression ignition engine but operates at so high a compression ratio it does this NOX creation that is inherently bad and hence diesels are not even held to the same standard as petrol but increasingly cities see that diesels cannot and will not meet low levels of NOX, THCs, PMs hence the plan to ban all of the them no matter what Euro standard or equivalent in Asia, US as well as Europe. 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The leaders of four major global cities say they will stop the use of all diesel-powered cars and trucks by the middle of the next decade.

The mayors of Paris, Mexico City, Madrid and Athens say they are implementing the ban to improve air quality..........

Diesel engines contribute to the problem in two key ways - through the production of particulate matter (PM) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). Very fine soot PM can penetrate the lungs and can contribute to cardiovascular illness and death.  Nitrogen oxides can help form ground level ozone and this can exacerbate breathing difficulties, even for people without a history of respiratory problems.

As the evidence has mounted, environmental groups have used the courts to try and enforce clear air standards and regulations. In the UK, campaigners have recently had success in forcing the government to act more quickly.  Now, mayors from a number of major cities with well-known air quality problems have decided to use their authority to clamp down on the use of diesel.

In the UK, campaigners are calling for London's mayor to commit to phase out diesel vehicles from London by 2025.
Analysis   The diesel ban is hugely significant. Carmakers will look at this decision and know it's just a matter of time before other city mayors follow suit.
 

 

 

 

Guess they better ban high compression direct injection petrol engines. Particularly the turbo charged small ones.

 

You might want to look at the compression ratios they run and how they too sail past what they claim.

 

A diesel which correctly uses adblu will emit almost no NOx as it’s converted .

Likewise in relation to PMs wood burners... 

 

apparently the UKs domestic wood burners emit more PM10s and PM2.5s than road traffic:

 

Guidance for wood burning in London | London City Hall

 

Emissions of air pollutants in the UK – Particulate matter (PM10 and PM2.5) - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

Makes you think...

4 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Guess they better ban high compression direct injection petrol engines. Particularly the turbo charged small ones.

 

You might want to look at the compression ratios they run and how they too sail past what they claim.

 

A diesel which correctly uses ad blu will emit almost no NOx as it’s converted .

 

We can only go by the VCADATA, and other official bodies which are tasked to do the testing,  which does tend to show that turbo diesels look to be about twice as bad as petrol turbo for NOX and Total Hydrocarbon emissions THC.  I think it is true engines like Jaguar's high specific output petrol engine shows so pretty poor figures ie near the 60 mg/km for NOX compared to many other figures petrol engines but some of their engines are quite good for NOX ie just a fraction of the 60 mg/km limit. 

 

I had assumed that Renault were just saving themselves the cost of the turbo sticking with the 1.6 naturally Aspirated engine in many of their ETECH hybrid cars but maybe it is as the non turbo seems to have much less NOX due to the lower maximum gas cylinder temperatures which causes NOX.  Constantly learning.   Renault diesel Traffic vans are really bad and these are they types of vehicles in cities one can hope are going to be replaced by the likes of the Maxis electric van as being used all day in the cities changing those will make a bigger difference that changing the commuting car of the city workers.

 

Did not know there was a Green NCAP testing organisation just like for safety under EuroNCAP....  https://www.greenncap.com/

 

 

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

We can only go by the VCADATA, and other official bodies which are tasked to do the testing,  which does tend to show that turbo diesels look to be about twice as bad as petrol turbo for NOX and Total Hydrocarbon emissions THC.  I think it is true engines like Jaguar's high specific output petrol engine shows so pretty poor figures ie near the 60 mg/km for NOX compared to many other figures petrol engines but some of their engines are quite good for NOX ie just a fraction of the 60 mg/km limit. 

 

I had assumed that Renault were just saving themselves the cost of the turbo sticking with the 1.6 naturally Aspirated engine in many of their ETECH hybrid cars but maybe it is as the non turbo seems to have much less NOX due to the lower maximum gas cylinder temperatures which causes NOX.  Constantly learning.   Renault diesel Traffic vans are really bad and these are they types of vehicles in cities one can hope are going to be replaced by the likes of the Maxis electric van as being used all day in the cities changing those will make a bigger difference that changing the commuting car of the city workers.

 

Did not know there was a Green NCAP testing organisation just like for safety under EuroNCAP....  https://www.greenncap.com/

 

 

That has always been my belief that by far the worst offenders are the commercial vehicles. It makes sense as they haul heavy loads, are the least aerodynamic and tend to be in use the whole working day. Cars on the otherhand mainly do relatively short runs twice a day and are then parked up for long periods.

Edited 20 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

9 hours ago, skomaz said:

Likewise in relation to PMs wood burners... 

 

apparently the UKs domestic wood burners emit more PM10s and PM2.5s than road traffic:

 

Guidance for wood burning in London | London City Hall

 

Emissions of air pollutants in the UK – Particulate matter (PM10 and PM2.5) - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

Makes you think...

Not to mention garden bonfires, which can cause quite unpleasant local pollution.

 

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

VCADATA

Well they said the EU5 diesels without adblue were as clean as they claimed, so big pinch of salt there.

 

A 2.0 diesel EU6 rde2 with the correct adblue and a DPF has very low NOx and PM.

 

I am not saying it’s perfect, but it is demonised, whilst the 1.0L turbo gdi found in many a small car was lauded.

 

The same real world tests that caught dodgy diesel show many of those tiny turbos are well over.

 

Frankly I think all family and city type cars should move to electric motors. Any petrol or LPG should be range extension and in the form of a generator to charge a battery.

 

No excuse for carrying around a massive engine, gearboxes, electric motors and undersized batteries in current hybrids.

2 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Well they said the EU5 diesels without adblue were as clean as they claimed, so big pinch of salt there.

 

A 2.0 diesel EU6 rde2 with the correct adblue and a DPF has very low NOx and PM.

 

I am not saying it’s perfect, but it is demonised, whilst the 1.0L turbo gdi found in many a small car was lauded.

 

The same real world tests that caught dodgy diesel show many of those tiny turbos are well over.

 

Frankly I think all family and city type cars should move to electric motors. Any petrol or LPG should be range extension and in the form of a generator to charge a battery.

 

No excuse for carrying around a massive engine, gearboxes, electric motors and undersized batteries in current hybrids.

 

Difficult to find a roughly equivalent two similar hp/kw versions of the same car.  Focus, the 140 hp looks like it was discontinued couple of years ago.  NOX on the 125 hp petrol about a third of the diesel, but that was/is 150 hp.  Diesel is a bit quicker.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Manufacturer	Model	Description	Transmission	Engine Capacity	Fuel Type	Powertrain	Engine Power (Kw)	Engine Power (PS)	Emissions NOx [mg/km]
FORD	Focus Model Year Post 2021.75	1.0 EcoBoost	M6	999	Petrol	Internal Combustion Engine (ICE)	92	125	14
FORD	Focus Model Year Pre 2021.75	2.0 EcoBlue	M6	1995	Diesel	Internal Combustion Engine (ICE)	110	150	40

 

Edited 20 August, 20232 yr by lol-lol

Just minimise burning stuff (re wood buner and bon fire)...... we ought to be past that by now 🙄

Certainly should be where there is mains gas, or even where there are bottled / tank gas deliveries.

 

Lots of places in the UK has no mains gas. or even regular deliveries of heating oil, gas or coal.

 

Aberdeenshire Council have had the Real Fires, Coal fires (wood) removed from council houses in Braemar.

(But then the GP is retiring and a new one or actually 2 new ones can not be found.)

 

On topic. 

Braemar really really needs the EV charging hub improved, and Rapid chargers in Ballater.

It is a farce now trying to get charged. 

 

 

Edited 20 August, 20232 yr by toot

Burning gas is not good either, check out the PM figures in the vicinity of boiler or cooker, far worse than standing by a main road. 

Neither is actual Black Outs, no electric, no heating.  Location location location.  

 

Chelmsford Essex likely has very few burning peat. 

1 minute ago, toot said:

Neither is actual Black Outs, no electric, no heating.  Location location location.  

 

Chelmsford Essex likely has very few burning peat. 

Hopefully nobody doing that 🔥

51 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Burning gas is not good either, check out the PM figures in the vicinity of boiler or cooker, far worse than standing by a main road. 

 

It is deemed a good moved for shipping .

The company that is due to be my employers parent company shortly, CMA, is buying fleets of LNG container ships.

 

Also similar sized cruise ships ie circa 200,000 tonnes, just come off one after a cruise, is also LNG. Store about 3600 metres cubed of gas ie about 3000 tonnes feed in to 4 medium speed piston engines each around 20000 hp I gather.I

 

Emissions are about three quarters of a diesel fuelled ship.

Someway off going lecky but expect it will happen.

 

Replenishment at sea like Royal Fleet Auxilary I can foresee.

 

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

It is deemed a good moved for shipping .

The company that is due to be my employers parent company shortly, CMA, is buying fleets of LNG container ships.

 

Also similar sized cruise ships ie circa 200,000 tonnes, just come off one after a cruise, is also LNG. Store about 3600 metres cubed of gas ie about 3000 tonnes feed in to 4 medium speed piston engines each around 20000 hp I gather.I

 

Emissions are about three quarters of a diesel fuelled ship.

Someway off going lecky but expect it will happen.

 

Replenishment at sea like Royal Fleet Auxilary I can foresee.

 

Would help if they mandated plug in and engines off within an hour or so for all ships mooring in the UK.