Browsing the internet just now while I'm downloading the latest maps for the Superb's Columbus on the laptop and this suggested video was presented to me on YT and you can understand why when send a parcel by Royal Mail they ask if there are any batteries in it before they accept it.

 

Edit. It also now seems according to this video that e scooters are banned from the TFL network, does that also include London Buses I wonder??

 

 

Edited 16 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

3 hours ago, toot said:

@Graham ButcherI do not know which ships take in the Mazda and Dacia ICE & Hybrids and BEV,s and other manufacturers models  into Bristol Port and unload and then load Jaguar Land Rovers and others and if MINI,s get loaded before a ship might head to the Continent to get loaded some more.

@lol-lolmight just know.

 

 

What you describe is a possibility though from what I saw at Portbury (Bristol) dock look like it was complete discharging but I se no reason a car carrier could load up on some British cars before popping over to Germany to pick up some German cars as well.  I was the customs officer for Mitsubishi cars, now part of Renault ofcourse, and there cars came in through Portbury Bristol and the docks area was/is a customs warehouse area so the cars would stay in duty suspense until called off days,weeks, month, possibly even a year or two later.  Cars were from Far East and from Spain in to Portbury, Bristol.  We held up to about 35,000 vehicles there.

 

Bit surprised that Mazdas were not already going through Portbury, Bristol. I am mainly involved in container traffic now so main Felixstowe, Liverpool, London and Southampton, as well as air freight and some specialist road freight and multi port calls and it is not unusual that the order of European ports being visited for drops and collections can be altered at last moment due to weather and slots at the ports.  Portbury has been limited to 6,000 TEU vessels and the Bristol Channel is not the easiest place to get in to but Bristol is nicely positioned to get cargo to English and Welsh cities within an hour or two.  Had fun dealing with those customs entries where the cargo was valued in billions of yen ! 

  

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh good grief, in order to do that before anything else is brought into the fire, you have to get the blanket there, you have to have good access all round the vehicle and you still need  thousands of litres of water to keep the entire blanket cooled. The blanket does not starve the fire of oxygen as some may think as the battery chemicals release vast amounts of oxygen as part of the fire. All the blanket is doing is trying to prevent the fire spreading any further.

 

Not what is seen in the video of the firemen using the big Norwegian made blankets, there are other makers, they cost less than a grand and some are multi use, which should be carried by all fire engines and have available to deploy on car carrier ships to it would made sense.  Water looks optional.  Would recommend getting a BA suit and fire resistance garments which they do have on ship, and I did 4 years as a merchant navy engineer and did two multi day fire fighting courses.

 

  

 

@lol-lolTotally agree with you, but the blanket needs to be there very early on in the fire especially if the fire is not actually in the battery, in that case it is no different in how you treat it to a ICE fire, water or as you say a blanket as it will cut the oxygen off from the fire and the fire will die out. Once the battery is comprised, it is game over, current lithium batteries do not need oxygen to burn and as a matter of fact, they will generate oxygen during the burning process due to the chemical reactions. 

7 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Edit. It also now seems according to this video that e scooters are banned from the TFL network, does that also include London Buses I wonder??

Yes, it's banned on all UK public transport. 

https://www.moveelectric.com/e-scooters/which-train-firms-have-banned-e-scooters

That is due to fire risk concerns and the fact private vehicles are not legally allowed on the roads outside the station. 

But e-bikes, electric wheelchairs and mobility scooters are all fully legal and thus not banned. 

 

Remember e-scooter and drones often use Li-Po battery, which are notorious for catching fire when slight hint of over charge. Whereas EV use LFP or NMC battery have much more sophisticated battery management systems. They also tend to not charged to 100% that often, practically zero chance of overcharging. Finally, lower range variants tend to use no-cobalt, much safer LFP battery. 

https://www.evlithium.com/Blog/advanced-safety-features-of-lifepo4-batteries.html

 

So I think it is disingenuous to taint all Li-on battery with one brush: infer BEV battery life from phones and fire risk from poorly made e-scooters or other simple portable device batteries. 

Putting energy into anything carries a risk of fire.

 

When I was maybe 8, I remember filling a paint can with diesel and putting it on the bonfire. The petrol one before was a superb display. The diesel one considerably more boring. Nothing was happening. Of course in later life I found out thats not dissimilar to driving a diesel 😛

 

What I needed was an accelerant, or in my younger head, something to see what was going on. Tada a long stick. Prod, um, prod, um, tap, um, I must of put the lid on well. Whack, there we go...

 

A few years back, I got back; too briefly, into model aero. Lithium had replaced nicad and the world was awash with warnings on recharging lithium in your house. Ideally in an old ammo container under plastic bags of fine sand. So if the battery was damaged or failed, any fire would be snuffed by said sand. Not by your laundry basket.

 

So I guess statistically I've seen more ICE car fires than ev fires. Then again when I was thumping the paint can, I'd seen more petrol fires than diesel. A few years later I saw a man emptying a dust extractor from a MDF workshop, taking the bag, about 200l in size, to the well alight bonfire. It; the bag, never made it all the way. One set of crispy eyebrows later, I'd seen as many people on fire as I had diesel filled paint cans.

 

None of these events put me off using petrol, diesel, anything with a lithium battery, however I refuse to use MDF. So perhaps there is nothing to these words other than, fate.

 

I'm fated to now have an EV. Perhaps I'll build a car port and cover it in sandbags.

 

One final thing, I do remember whilst sat on the roof of the shed, waiting for the diesel paint tin. That was arguing with my friend about how long to wait/prod it. Neither of us knew about the science behind paint tins filled with fuel, but we had a good old ding dong around it. If we'd carried on I'm sure I'd need not of prodded the tin at all before it went up. I'm sure I' was trying to make a point here, however now chuckling, thinking back to that dam can, fizzing away. Don't repeat this at home, this was all done in a field a safe-ish distance from abestos roofed buildings.

 

Now to check the fuel price to top up my paint can...

Edited 16 August, 20232 yr by ColinD

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Yes, it's banned on all UK public transport. 

https://www.moveelectric.com/e-scooters/which-train-firms-have-banned-e-scooters

That is due to fire risk concerns and the fact private vehicles are not legally allowed on the roads outside the station. 

But e-bikes, electric wheelchairs and mobility scooters are all fully legal and thus not banned. 

 

Remember e-scooter and drones often use Li-Po battery, which are notorious for catching fire when slight hint of over charge. Whereas EV use LFP or NMC battery have much more sophisticated battery management systems. They also tend to not charged to 100% that often, practically zero chance of overcharging. Finally, lower range variants tend to use no-cobalt, much safer LFP battery. 

https://www.evlithium.com/Blog/advanced-safety-features-of-lifepo4-batteries.html

 

So I think it is disingenuous to taint all Li-on battery with one brush: infer BEV battery life from phones and fire risk from poorly made e-scooters or other simple portable device batteries. 

The true picture is this and there are plenty of links below that explain just how a EV can be both a normal car fire in the same way as an ICE car and be safely dealt with in precisely the same way, i.e., water or a blanket and the effectiveness is the same so just because an EV is on fire does not mean it requires any special treatment in the early stages of the fire.

 

What can make EV cars more dangerous is the level of charge with in the battery and if the battery itself is the cause of the fire or has become compromised as a result of the heating effect of the "normal" fire and is entering its thermal runaway phase.

 

Yes, the internet is awash with examples of batteries in the open, not sealed into water and airtight containers, and these batteries just have a flash and then burn. Once they enter thermal runaway when in that sealed container, they ARE then extremely dangerous, and it is when they are in this state that they are posing a far, far greater threat to life and also structures than ICE cars ever will. This is similar to the explosives in a bomb, remove the sealed steel casing and those explosives are far less dangerous.

 

These links are only a few and I have found many more and these are not videos made by some random YouTube bloggers, they are in the main made by fire experts, i.e, fire brigades and research centre trying to learn more about how to deal with them when things go wrong. Anyone watching these and paying attention to what the experts are saying and then disagrees that EVs as we currently know them are very dangerous indeed is in denial of the truth.

 

(541) Examples of Lithium Battery Fires - YouTube

(544) Is Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP/LiFePO4) Safer? - YouTube

(541) Can Lithium-ion Battery Fires be Extinguished: Small/Medium Devices - YouTube

(541) Fighting EV car fires with the FIRE ISOLATOR concept - Live testing UPDATED VERSION - YouTube

(544) Controlling and fighting EV car fires with the Fire Isolator concept - live demonstration March 2022 - YouTube

(544) Do Firefighting Tools for Extinguishing Electric Vehicle Fires Really Work? - YouTube

(544) Electric Vehicle Fires: Let It Burn - YouTube

(544) Does Submerging Electric Vehicle Fires Work? - YouTube

(544) Vehicle Fire Data: Electric vs. Combustion - YouTube

(544) Why Tesla Fires are Impossible to Put Out - YouTube

(544) Lithium-ion Battery Fires: Full Charge vs. Low Charge - YouTube

Edited 16 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

2 hours ago, ColinD said:

A few years later I saw a man emptying a dust extractor from a MDF workshop, taking the bag, about 200l in size, to the well alight bonfire. It; the bag, never made it all the way. One set of crispy eyebrows later, I'd seen as many people on fire as I had diesel filled paint cans.

 

I know I should not laugh but I did, any fine powder will explosively combust in the right conditions, time for me to admit one of my childhood conneries except I was no longer a child, I had a driving license!

 

My parents had a caravan on the South Coast, my father kept it for a couple of years after my mother died and then passed it on to someone else. The last year he had it I went with my equally idiot mate for a weeks holiday consisting of drinking and chasing girls without success.

 

As young ados do we were play fighting and I picked up the dry powder fire extinguisher as a threat prop and it went off, it was powered by a soda siphon cartridge, what all the druggies inhale these days, so it did not stop but blanketed everything inside the caravan including us in dust.

 

We spent the remaining days cleaning the caravan of all traces of the powder and I then set about putting the extinguisher back in service, the propellant charge was easy, soda siphons were all the rage in the 70's but what powder should I use and where to find it?

 

Then I had the brainwave of using talcum powder..............................😒

 

A couple of years later my father told me the caravan was no more, the gas fire had caught fire and then exploded taking out the windows and doors and the eybrows of the new owner, trying not to let my nervousness show in my voice I asked did they not use the fire extinguisher? and he said they were trying to put out the fire with it when the explosion happened 😯

14 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

What can make EV cars more dangerous is the level of charge with in the battery and if the battery itself is the cause of the fire or has become compromised as a result of the heating effect of the "normal" fire and is entering its thermal runaway phase.

No one is denying this, for batteries that have started thermal runaway. 

 

But what is the actual likelihood of battery reaching thermal runaway? For regular undamaged, never overcharged pack? 

 

15 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Anyone watching these and paying attention to what the experts are saying and then disagrees that EVs as we currently know them are very dangerous indeed is in denial of the truth.

 

The more important question is, are they (BEV) more dangerous than ICE cars?
Which energy storage (battery/petrol) is more likely to start self-combust by itself? 

 

In a crash, the a BEV as a whole is safer to be in than any ICE car. The battery pack provides more passenger space protection and no engine provides a bigger crumble zone. Even if the pack is damaged, thermal runaway is not guaranteed. 

 

You are laser focused on thermal runaway situations, which no doubt is devastating. But how often does that actually happen? 

Here you go again, I have NEVER denied what you are saying is true but look at the way BEV shoot high pressure jets of fire outwards, not upwards when that failure mode is reached. Then factor in the chances of other BEVs being close to that and being caught on fire as a result. The batteries are low down where the jets of fire are, and then you should be able to understand the serious nature of a chain reaction taking place with a massive chance of lethal consequences for both life and limb, as well as building structures. If you need reminding, look at how the fire spread rapidly at the Grenfell Tower  block and the huge loss of human life, and the building is also awaiting demolition. The chances of such a disaster increases with more BEVs coming on the road and towards 2030 there is a good chance of more BEVs than ICEs so that likelihood is greatly enhanced.

 

I understand that you have a tesla, and I'm very happy and pleased that you like it, and you are unlikely to have any troubles with it, just as I am with my ICE as such incidents are rare but given the choice, I'd feel far safer in my diesel car in a terrible crash then I would in a BEV as diesel is very hard to burn but IF that battery compartment suffers and the batteries go into that state while you are either trapped or struggling to get out, your chances of survival just took a massive nosedive, sorry.

 

Is because the fire brigades can see beyond your short-sightedness that they are conducting these tests as they get to see first hand far more car fires than you, or I will ever see in a lifetime, and it takes a lot to get them worried, but BEVs have managed to do that. 

Edited 16 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

22 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Here you go again, I have NEVER denied what you are saying is true but look at the way BEV shoot high pressure jets of fire outwards, not upwards when that failure mode is reached. Then factor in the chances of other BEVs being close to that and being caught on fire as a result. The batteries are low down where the jets of fire are, and then you should be able to understand the serious nature of a chain reaction taking place with a massive chance of lethal consequences for both life and limb, as well as building structures. If you need reminding, look at how the fire spread rapidly at the Grenfell Tower  block and the huge loss of human life, and the building is also awaiting demolition. The chances of such a disaster increases with more BEVs coming on the road and towards 2030 there is a good chance of more BEVs than ICEs so that likelihood is greatly enhanced.

 

I understand that you have a tesla, and I'm very happy and pleased that you like it, and you are unlikely to have any troubles with it, just as I am with my ICE as such incidents are rare but given the choice, I'd feel far safer in my diesel car in a terrible crash then I would in a BEV as diesel is very hard to burn but IF that battery compartment suffers and the batteries go into that state while you are either trapped or struggling to get out, your chances of survival just took a massive nosedive, sorry.

 

What is the likelihood of BEV reaching thermal runaway? 

 

It's classic risk vs reward. In a crash, if the chance of battery reaching thermal runaway is less than the chance of life threatening cabin intrusion due to battery placement, then surely it is safer to be in a BEV? 

 

I have never accused you of denying what I'm saying. I'm just saying you are very focused on the negative and not a balanced holistic view. Is it because it is the only way you feel to make your point? Hence I feel the need to point out the other sides of the coin. I'm sorry if it makes you feel threatened. 

 

 

You are right to bring up the issues. Am I wrong to ask for the likelihood of this for risk assessment? 

Edited 16 August, 20232 yr by wyx087

9 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

What is the likelihood of BEV reaching thermal runaway? 

 

It's classic risk vs reward. In a crash, if the chance of battery reaching thermal runaway is less than the chance of life threatening cabin intrusion due to battery placement, then surely it is safer to be in a BEV? 

 

I have never accused you of denying what I'm saying. I'm just saying you are very focused on the negative and not a balanced holistic view. Is it because it is the only way you feel to make your point? Hence I feel the need to point out the other sides of the coin. I'm sorry if it makes you feel threatened. 

 

I'm not feeling threatened in the slightest bit, what I was rather hoping is that you others who appear hell-bent on kind of denying that we are entering into what is increasingly looking like being dominated by BEV's, landscape these events will become far more commonplace and your balanced holistic view will long have flown out the window because almost every car will in time be a BEV so the chances of seeing a car which has entered in runaway mode, or the chances of your car becoming an innocent victim of a similar event while parked in a parking spot will have increased by a significant factor. 

 

Yes the odds of a BEV going into the runaway mode on its own are slim, but it does indeed happen and if I park next to another ICE car, the chances of my car sustaining damage are far lower if the other car catches fire, then it would if that other car was a BEV in runaway mode, subjecting my car to the sustained jets of fire being emitted from the others batteries at low level as shown in some of the videos. That is all I've ever wanted people to acknowledge is that the future not as cosy looking as some people seem to be thinking it is. I and many other people I'm sure would rather we solve this problem properly before making it compulsory that all new cars in 2030 must either be hybrid and BEVs. As I'm sure I've already mentioned that we were led to believe that diesel was the answer to all problems and was the saviour of the world, a few years ago. Now we know that was a massive mistake and many people got badly burnt in the wallet 😉 by that as the diesel cars are more expensive and still are, and BEV's and hybids of all kinds are also more expensive and history is looking like its repeating itself all over again. 

14 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

what I was rather hoping is that you others who appear hell-bent on kind of denying that we are entering into what is increasingly looking like being dominated by BEV's, landscape these events will become far more commonplace and your balanced holistic view will long have flown out the window because almost every car will in time be a BEV so the chances of seeing a car which has entered in runaway mode, or the chances of your car becoming an innocent victim of a similar event while parked in a parking spot will have increased by a significant factor. 

 

Yes the odds of a BEV going into the runaway mode on its own are slim, but it does indeed happen and if I park next to another ICE car, the chances of my car sustaining damage are far lower if the other car catches fire, then it would if that other car was a BEV in runaway mode, subjecting my car to the sustained jets of fire being emitted from the others batteries at low level as shown in some of the videos. That is all I've ever wanted people to acknowledge is that the future not as cosy looking as some people seem to be thinking it is.

Again, what are the likelihood of a parked car in a packed car park enter into runaway mode?

Is it not a valid question? Why do you keep dodging this question when you are so knowledgeable on EV battery thermal runaways? 

 

Where have I denied that there is no fire/runaway risk associated with BEV? 

Just like everything in life, risk management is key. Why is me asking about the actual chance/likelihood of EV battery enter thermal runaway is, in your view, denying? 

No need to dig through your TB's of hard disk, just look in this thread and quote me denying thermal runaway risk.  Otherwise, please stop with your nonsense accusations about me or other "hell-bend" members. 

 

The balanced holistic view is to say there is X chance of BEV entering thermal runaway, is it acceptable, how to mitigate it?  It can be as simple as parking accidental damaged BEV in the open for dozens of days. Something you know is already put into practice. 

 

22 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

As I'm sure I've already mentioned that we were led to believe that diesel was the answer to all problems and was the saviour of the world, a few years ago. Now we know that was a massive mistake and many people got badly burnt in the wallet 😉 by that as the diesel cars are more expensive and still are, and BEV's and hybids of all kinds are also more expensive and history is looking like its repeating itself all over again. 

The diesel was never marketed as "answer to all problems". It was the an answer to the CO2 problem as limited by technology at the time. It is still a valid answer, just the problem was expanded (CO2 and local pollution). BEV is a much better answer to this expanded problem, batteries (stationary or EV) are also part of answer to problem of getting higher renewable utilisation. Li-on is currently the best solution for energy storage, and we (humanity) cannot wait for the perfect solution. 

 

Again, the cost of ownership is vastly cheaper with EV. It has been proven many times. You appear to be hell-bent on making throwaway comments about everything negative about EV's. 

Apparently no recorded incident of a factory EV spontaneously combustion at sea.

As video mentions just one Qashqai which was a home made EV catching fire...

Nice to hear 487 people are going to get an EV and it is a couple of thousand ICE cars that will never go on the road polluting our world further....

 

 

 

Edited 16 August, 20232 yr by lol-lol

It is not 100% certain, he says it is unlikely to have been an EV, we will have to wait for the official forensic report in a few years time to be sure. But lets assume it was an ICE car, it just goes to show just how badly designed these carriers are that a fire can rage along a whole level with no fire doors or whatever to compartmentalise them to help prevent such an event. Lessons will hopefully be learned, and future ships have safety improvements incorporated. We also presume that the ship did deploy the massive CO2 systems that it was fitted with to suppress the fire.

Edited 16 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

I just had a wee look at the number of Ro-ro ships around the world and the size of them and the sort of wheeled vehicles they carry.

 

The ones that might matter more to those in the UK are ferries leaving and arriving the UK with vehicles and passengers on board.

Will there be restrictions on EV,s, PHEV,s or Hybrids travelling on them?

Or using the Channel Tunnel. 

 

Are there restrictions now? 

@wyx087 Sorry but I'm not ducking any question, also I have never indicated that EV's are not a possible solution. I'm saying that the compulsion is the wrong way to effect the change, there is still a lot of room to improve the technology still further to make all aspects of EVs safer from the mining of the minerals through to the adoption of them as the only means of transportation. 

 

EVs don't have any tailpipe emissions is correct, but they are not squeaky clean either, they also have tyre emissions, and some brake emissions, granted they use regen braking so brake dust is less. But in this country at least, a lot of the energy that we stuff the battery with is going to be produced by the burning of fossil fuels for many years to come. Westminster is granting loads more oil drilling platforms for the North Sea. UK defies climate warnings with new oil and gas licences - BBC News So in essence this will mean the same amounts (more or less) of CO2 and NOX etc will be produced by power stations generating the power for EVs and all that concentration of pollution will be at various locations across the UK, rather than dispersed across the country. 

 

Both ICE and BEV owners / drivers will, for some time to come, be contributing to global warming and air quality. Do you agree that the air quality on the London Underground, is many times worse than the air at the surface, and yet, there are no internal combustion engines on the tube network, so is the car really such a bad thing seeing as there are hundreds of thousands of all types of cars, ICE and BEVs on the roads, and yet the air quality is better at ground level than on the tubes. How does that fit in with Net Zero? 

 

I suppose the real question is, "Are we being told the real truth" about the push towards BEVs.

 

 

32 minutes ago, toot said:

I just had a wee look at the number of Ro-ro ships around the world and the size of them and the sort of wheeled vehicles they carry.

 

The ones that might matter more to those in the UK are ferries leaving and arriving the UK with vehicles and passengers on board.

Will there be restrictions on EV,s, PHEV,s or Hybrids travelling on them?

Or using the Channel Tunnel. 

 

Are there restrictions now? 

Good question, I don't think that there is any restrictions currently, but I won't know as I have never used them, someone will have the answer I'm sure.

Well  soon it is a question that needs answering because there are car ferries doing journeys to the UK and away and from the mainland to islands or just crossing rivers. 

Lots of electric cars, motorbikes and commercial vehicles including electric ones. 

 

http://dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/record-north-sea-oil-revenues-30714453

 

@Graham ButcherThat oil and gas licences are there to have the oil and gas extracted and used, maybe as time goes by what stays in the British Isles might be used for purposes better than producing electricity & heating properties.

Maybe down in the lower UK there will be more production of energy locally and less importing from overseas and from the northern parts. 

If there is to be Fracking then we know where that should be, where the biggest population and polluters are and where the highest demand is for energy and the least is generated but the lowest prices paid to buy it.

 

................

Nothing will be zero emissions or waste or use of materials regardless of how powered.

If bothered just start walking or cycling but when soles of shoes wear down that muct be someplace around, and brake blocks or pads on bikes or the tread off the tyres 

Edited 16 August, 20232 yr by toot

The tunnel will be the first if it happens, they have had 2 massive fires and the enclosed vehicle double decker carriage had to be retrofitted with fire barrier doors between each compartment reducing the capacity.

 

They dont allow jerrycans of fuel or gas cylinders and special measures are taken for gas powered vehicles or campervans with gas cylinders.

 

When the first EV fire happens it will may cause casualties given the confined space and how quick they meltdown, it will be a tough call banning them given they will gradually become the majority of vehicles,  they could  travel in the open truck carriages but the thought of an EV firebomb spreading to the freight and the flames being fanned by the airflow does not bear thinking about.

Maybe you might have to leave your BEV either side of the channel and then hire another when you get to the other side?

16 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I'm saying that the compulsion is the wrong way to effect the change, there is still a lot of room to improve the technology still further to make all aspects of EVs safer from the mining of the minerals through to the adoption of them as the only means of transportation. 

Compulsion is the only way to drive changes fast. We cannot wait any longer to achieve net-zero goals. As I said, it's not the perfect solution but it's the current best solution.

EV has not been marketed as the only means of transport. There's many other means of transport that are viable options: bikes, public transport, taxi, etc.

 

19 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

in this country at least, a lot of the energy that we stuff the battery with is going to be produced by the burning of fossil fuels for many years to come. Westminster is granting loads more oil drilling platforms for the North Sea. UK defies climate warnings with new oil and gas licences - BBC News So in essence this will mean the same amounts (more or less) of CO2 and NOX etc will be produced by power stations generating the power for EVs and all that concentration of pollution will be at various locations across the UK, rather than dispersed across the country. 

This is not true. It is possible to charge EV using renewable.

I consume 1 kWh of electricity from the grid, and my energy supplier pays green energy producer for 1 kWh.

Granted, the energy grid is a giant pot and the exact bit I take off may not be produced by a renewable. But the fact remains, I am not funding burning fossil fuel to produce my energy needs.

Also, it is possible to completely charge EV using roof top solar: https://www.speakev.com/threads/charging-off-excess-solar-using-dumb-charger-and-home-assistant.177813/#post-3441721

https://www.notateslaapp.com/software-updates/upcoming-features/id/1392/first-look-at-tesla-s-drive-on-sunshine-feature-that-will-charge-your-tesla-with-excess-solar-energy

https://www.myenergi.com/zappi-ev-charger/

 

24 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Both ICE and BEV owners / drivers will, for some time to come, be contributing to global warming and air quality. Do you agree that the air quality on the London Underground, is many times worse than the air at the surface, and yet, there are no internal combustion engines on the tube network, so is the car really such a bad thing seeing as there are hundreds of thousands of all types of cars, ICE and BEVs on the roads, and yet the air quality is better at ground level than on the tubes. How does that fit in with Net Zero? 

Air quality != net zero.

One is combination of many different measurements including particulate matter and NOx.

Latter is massively reduce CO2 and other green house gas emissions.

 

25 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I suppose the real question is, "Are we being told the real truth" about the push towards BEVs.

What area do you want to question?

Other than already been disproven myths such as the "long tail pipe", the actual risk of fires (instead of only focusing on the thermal runaway), the cost of ownership, and that battery degradation cannot be compared to smart phone batteries.

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

 

To my mind, BEV is not only current best solution to personal transport. It is a step change to the old "buy this new engine for less emission". Any emission are centralised and can be tackled easily and quickly. Any BEV today will benefit as the grid get cleaned up, whereas ICE are a snapshot of its emission technology and would never improve by itself.

BEV is also part of solution to allow higher renewable utilisation, they are essentially battery on wheels. So instead of having to come up with massive amount of energy storage, V2G or V2H is the solution. Distributed across all EV's that are parked, this virtual power plant can work to match demand to unpredictable nature of renewables. Or right now, smart charging such as Intelligent Octopus.

 

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

 Sorry but I'm not ducking any question

Sorry, you are:

You've posted thermal runaway without answering the actual likelihood of such problem, thus stirring up fear by not providing a measured view of the actual risk. You have ducked the question regarding the actual likelihood/chance/risk of thermal runaway.

You've attempted to put word in my mouth "that you others who appear hell-bent on kind of denying that we are entering into what is increasingly looking like being dominated by BEV's, landscape these events will become far more commonplace ...... because almost every car will in time be a BEV so the chances of seeing a car which has entered in runaway mode". When asked to point to my post, you have ducked the question.

@wyx087 I'm so sorry, you are taking what I'm saying so personally and skirting around what I've written and misunderstanding the points I've raised. If it has got professional firefighters in many countries highly concerned when there aren't so many BEVs on the road, and yet they really are worried about the consequences, I suppose that we the public shouldn't be concerned at all?

 

Look, it's clear that you can see nothing wrong here, so I think its best if we just draw a line in the sand on this issue and lets it leave there.

15 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087 I'm so sorry, you are taking what I'm saying so personally and skirting around what I've written and misunderstanding the points I've raised. If it has got professional firefighters in many countries highly concerned when there aren't so many BEVs on the road, and yet they really are worried about the consequences, I suppose that we the public shouldn't be concerned at all?

 

Look, it's clear that you can see nothing wrong here, so I think its best if we just draw a line in the sand on this issue and lets it leave there.

No, I haven't taken anything personal. I just want to get the facts right and myths cleared.

 

Let's clear some of the throwaway comments you've made about BEV's that are clearly myths that had been dispelled. Can you provide counter points to my posts above? There is surely something to use from your TB's of disk drive references. Why does every time I post counter arguments, you don't respond and add context/reference to your original statements?

 

The only thing you've continuously responded to was regarding fire risk. Something I had not dismissed as "nothing wrong here". I am merely asking for a risk assessment and whether the risk is being managed, rather than you only stating the worst possible outcome.

 

Also there had been some very clear misunderstanding of terms, such as air quality and net zero. This makes me doubt about your repeated boasting engineering background. May be it was more management focused?

(you wanted me to lighten up?)

 

 

Basically, if you want to make statements, best have the evidence to back it up, Don't want to spread myths or FUD.

Edited 16 August, 20232 yr by wyx087

5 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

No, I haven't taken anything personal. I just want to get the facts right and myths cleared.

 

Let's clear some of the throwaway comments you've made about BEV's that are clearly myths that had been dispelled. Can you provide counter points to my posts above? There is surely something to use from your TB's of disk drive references. Why does every time I post counter arguments, you don't respond and add context/reference to your original statements?

 

The only thing you've continuously responded to was regarding fire risk. Something I had not dismissed as "nothing wrong here". I am merely asking for a risk assessment and whether the risk is being managed, rather than you only stating the worst possible outcome.

 

Also there had been some very clear misunderstanding of terms, such as air quality and net zero. This makes me doubt about your repeated boasting engineering background. May be it was more management focused?

(you wanted me to lighten up?)

 

 

Basically, if you want to make statements, best have the evidence to back it up, Don't want to spread myths or FUD.

Whatever evidence I provide, you somehow try and rubbish it or totally ignore it and then you go on to provide evidence that second hand EVs are less expensive than ICE cars with this link https://www.speakev.com/threads/second-hand-evs-are-cheaper-than-ice.179449 🙄 Are you trying to say that I shouldn't want to buy a new car because new EVs cost more than their new ICE equivalents.

 

Then when I said about old second hand EVs would also suffer from battery degregation and thus less range and tried to counter that with "There's a healthy scrap market for second hand batteries: 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p4432023.m570.l1313&_nkw=leaf+battery&_sacat=0 So to my mind, how would an old EV be liability when its batteries are an asset waiting to be re-used? "

 

How on earth does that relate to what I was saying. 

 

Firstly eBay is not a scrap market, the prices shown on that link are what they are selling them for, not what I could get if I brought a second-hand EV and replaced the battery and sold the old one, and then the that car would leap up and become much more expensive than and an ICE car.

 

You gave me this link Electric Vehicles | Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service (bedsfire.gov.uk) which only mentions E scooters and even then hardly anything about them.

I could have hit you with these links but I decided it was not worth it because you would not even accept what they were saying as gospel.

 

Lets try it and see, here are some links that actually the scale of the problem and these are some die hard ICE lovers but mainly people charged with trying to protect us and our property when things go wrong, are they all so wrong????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwxZu3nVOZ0

The Red Boxx – a Bathtub for Cars – open source lab (dfki.de)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_e ... _incidents

Essex firefighters adapt to new hazards in electric vehicle fires | Essex County Fire and Rescue Service (essex-fire.gov.uk)

Electric car batteries: What you need to know (firerescue1.com)

Firefighters develop special vehicle to fight EV fires in car parks (thedriven.io)

Firefighters still struggle to defeat EV fires effectively | CarExpert

Electric Vehicle Fires Spark Firefighter Safety Concerns | The Regulatory Review (theregreview.org)

Firefighters Still Aren't Sure How to Quickly Defeat EV Fires (jalopnik.com)

Electric Vehicle Safety Advice | County Durham and Darlington Fire and Rescue Service (ddfire.gov.uk)

Emergency responders guide for alternatively fuelled vehicles (nationalfirechiefs.org.uk)

UK company reveals 6WD EV battery fire response truck | Autocar

Fire crews' fears over electric car blazes as they are having to double the crews sent to deal with them because their batteries cause 'rocket-like' infernos | Daily Mail Online

Thermal runaway EV battery fires controlled with water cutting tech | Auto Express

Data reveals extent of electric vehicle fires around the UK | CE Safety Blog

Tackling fires in electric vehicles (ife.org.uk)

Electric Cars Have One Problem: They Keep Lighting People's Houses on Fire (futurism.com)

Lydden Hill Race Circuit fire started in battery of Special ONE team electric car while charging, say FIA World Rallycross Championship officials (kentonline.co.uk)

(500) EV fires are tough to fight and pose new hazards. Inside the race to get responders ready. - YouTube

(502) Why Are Electric Vehicle Fires So Hard To Put Out? - YouTube

(502) Why Tesla, GM And Other EV Companies Have A Fire Problem - YouTube

(541) Examples of Lithium Battery Fires - YouTube

(544) Is Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP/LiFePO4) Safer? - YouTube

(541) Can Lithium-ion Battery Fires be Extinguished: Small/Medium Devices - YouTube

(541) Fighting EV car fires with the FIRE ISOLATOR concept - Live testing UPDATED VERSION - YouTube

(544) Controlling and fighting EV car fires with the Fire Isolator concept - live demonstration March 2022 - YouTube

(544) Do Firefighting Tools for Extinguishing Electric Vehicle Fires Really Work? - YouTube

(544) Electric Vehicle Fires: Let It Burn - YouTube

(544) Does Submerging Electric Vehicle Fires Work? - YouTube

(544) Vehicle Fire Data: Electric vs. Combustion - YouTube

(544) Why Tesla Fires are Impossible to Put Out - YouTube

(544) Lithium-ion Battery Fires: Full Charge vs. Low Charge - YouTube