A google away, while trying to find the link to the E-UP pack, I came across this. BMW I3 pack for £3683+VAT - granted only a 22kWh pack but these are out there.

https://www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/collections/ev-packs/products/bmw-i3-60ah-22kwh-pack

Edited 23 August, 20232 yr by Luckypants

We will see just which models survive the Euro 7 emissions introduction and which new type approved models are launched that have the new tech required as in the speed limiters and anything else and the cost of them and how many can be smaller cars not ridiculously expensive. 

11 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Well, yes. Why wouldn't it be? The car still functions as a car, in the odd days that you need to use the original full range of the car, it would only add 10min extra to your trip to do a quick splash-dash at rapid charger.

 

Do you need do 300-400 miles every day? Even if doing 350 miles a day, 200 miles degrade to 160 miles is the difference between 2 rapid charging stops and a few more minutes at same 2 rapid charging stops.

Never disputed the car still functions as a car, even if its range is only 10 miles it still functions a car but a severely less than optimal car and you’re forgetting that not everyone has the capability of having a rapid charge or is that not the case?

 

There's many non-driveway solutions posted already.

The cost of living prediction is another of your spiralling doom conclusion based solely on poor assumptions.

 

Why would things need longer to be done? I sense there is a misconception or lack of will to seek out information. EV's can charge at 2 different grades of speed: slow (official name is fast) or rapid. If the delivery van have zero downtime, it can be rapid charged in 30min at the depo while loading. If it was parked somewhere for any length of time, plug it in and charge it up.

Its that magical word again IF, One would assume the last mile delivery van would have been on charge all night so would not need a rapid charge while being loaded and once sent out on its round it is unlikely to be parked up anywhere for any length of time.  It was not the so-called last mile delivery vans I was talking about, but the long haul truckers or trampers as they are better known as. They are frequently away from home for days on end and pick up loads as they go and spend the week criss-crossing the country bringing the goods to shops, building sites, distribution warehouses and so on. Those deliveries would take longer once they go electric, hence costs would increase.

 

I've posted this previously. Even when charged via fossil fuel powered sources, EV is still greener than ICE car. Please refer to my previous posts you've conveniently ignored.

Can you post some reference for the second underlined statement? Expand on what aspects you are referring to?

As I said, please refer to my previous post on whole-life analysis of EV vs ICE car emissions.

Those kinds of analysis are being done largely by people who have vested interests one way or the other, so it is not possible to tell their accuracy, we have seen carmakers go to great lengths to cover up certain issues, distort figures, and so we have witnessed the same with all kinds of politicians from all kinds of parties and countries, how do we know which or indeed if any of them are telling the truth?

 

Regarding excess renwables, no, we (England) does not currently have large amount of excess renewables. But it's coming. Rrenewables will to be built to excess, time-of-use electricity tariff will become normal, thus when wind or sun isn't generating there is still enough to push through low demands (driven low by expensive time-of-use pricing). Matching demand to supply will be name of the game.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/energy-explained/how-much-uks-energy-renewable

Once again, this is not proven to be a fact, currently you seem to be admitting that now an EV is not actually greener. There is also no proof that there will enough power to be go round to enable people to recharge their cars, yes OK the politicians say that there will be, but we all know that what they say, and what they do are two completely different things and likewise the power companies fall into the same category.

"we" will be  "crash test dummies"??

Have you seen Norway's ICE car ban timeline and their current adoption rate?

Yes I have seen what Norway is doing, and I watched a video on Oslo and its policy of banning IC vehicles, only yesterday, and then I checked on the global air quality site and their air by and large is only very slightly better than London's air. And have you seen the small last mile vans they use, completely open single man cabins and barely any wider than a tricycle, and are bone crunchers. Also, not convinced about their underground car parks which feature chargers at each bay and the cars are still parked very closely together, so a single car going into thermal runaway has the potential to destroy all the others from what I could see. The lady was explaining that workers park their cars and charge them while at work and when they finish work, their car has been charged all very nice, but they could come back to a smouldering heap.

Off Topic, How do you create posts with multiple quotes in it like your one, I don't seem to be able to do it. When I click on the + button for a multiple quote, it changes to a ✔️ but I still cannot split the post up like yours?

 

47 minutes ago, Crasher said:

The price of a Golf engine roughly comparable to the e-Golf (say a 1.4 TSI) is £5200. The price of the e-Golf battery part number 5QE 915 597 AC is £28370.08 retail inc VAT, that is taken directly off the ETKA parts system. Incidentally the price of a Skoda ego battery is £16090.The pure ICE ban is coming in here in less than 7 years. As to needing to stop burning stuff, well that's a matter of opinion. Time will tell. Not everyone can afford a Model Y Long Range, well new anyway but an e-Golf is quite affordable after they have lost 2/3rd's of their value in two years.

That being so, you could still buy 5.5 golf engines for the cost of one battery and unless you're unlucky, you would more than likely not need a new engine anyway, the car will often find its way to the scrap year with its original engine still going strong.

 

As a matter of interest, I'm waiting for a quote back from a supplier of reconditioned engines for my Superb just to get some ideas of the cost.

56 minutes ago, Luckypants said:

For what its worth, I saw an E-Up battery pack with less than 10K miles on it second hand from a written off car about 6 months ago. £3200+VAT delivered. ISTR I posted about it at the time, but cannot find the post. £3200 seems very reasonable for a major component akin to a new engine. Like ICE cars, major parts will become available reconditioned and second hand as the market matures. EVs will not be more expensive than ICE, its the supply of cheap parts has not yet developed. 

The problem being is that the battery is not akin to a new engine, though. It is in reality, just a glorified fuel tank and that is it in its simplest form, the engine would be the electric motor(s), this makes it very hard to fully grasp the cost comparison between EV and ICE. The higher purchase price of an EV is a major stumbling block for many, yes I know that many people will say that you have to look at the total package from cradle to grave. But there are many things that make that view point irrelevant, the biggest and most obvious one is no one knows what the prices for electric V fossil fuels are going to be from 1 month to the next. But assuming they are right, you still need to be able to afford the ticket to the dance in the first instance.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Thanks for that. It's unlikely that part will ever be moved from the warehouse, considering the market value of e-Golf.

 

Pure ICE are a dying breed. Even now, 7 years before the ban, most cars are electrified to some degree.

Granted, we have yet to learn about the specific of the ban (eg. how many electric miles it must do to not be banned until 2035). This will likely driven by market forces based on what ICE manufacturer deem economically viable at that time.

The problem is still higher no matter which way it is dressed up, Telslas are still seen as premium brands and it is the mass market cars like the Golf that most people can hope of affording, surely you're not suggesting that folk who cannot afford a better class of car which will retain a higher value should go carless are you???

49 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

That being so, you could still buy 5.5 golf engines for the cost of one battery and unless you're unlucky, you would more than likely not need a new engine anyway, the car will often find its way to the scrap year with its original engine still going strong.

 

As a matter of interest, I'm waiting for a quote back from a supplier of reconditioned engines for my Superb just to get some ideas of the cost.

 

What is the VIN? Make sure it has a brand new head or the resurfaced head has been HIP treated as if not, it won't last two years.

36 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The problem being is that the battery is not akin to a new engine, though. It is in reality, just a glorified fuel tank and that is it in its simplest form, the engine would be the electric motor(s), this makes it very hard to fully grasp the cost comparison between EV and ICE. The higher purchase price of an EV is a major stumbling block for many, yes I know that many people will say that you have to look at the total package from cradle to grave. But there are many things that make that view point irrelevant, the biggest and most obvious one is no one knows what the prices for electric V fossil fuels are going to be from 1 month to the next. But assuming they are right, you still need to be able to afford the ticket to the dance in the first instance.

Fair point. I was merely comparing the most costly component on an ICE with that of an EV and on that basis the cost is comparable.

49 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Never disputed the car still functions as a car, even if its range is only 10 miles it still functions a car but a severely less than optimal car and you’re forgetting that not everyone has the capability of having a rapid charge or is that not the case?

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. Why would everyone want/need to have a rapid charger?

 

50 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

It was not the so-called last mile delivery vans I was talking about, but the long haul truckers or trampers as they are better known as. They are frequently away from home for days on end and pick up loads as they go and spend the week criss-crossing the country bringing the goods to shops, building sites, distribution warehouses and so on. Those deliveries would take longer once they go electric, hence costs would increase.

Pepsi seems to be able to make it work: https://electrek.co/2023/08/04/pepsico-explains-uses-tesla-semi-electric-trucks-glimpse-future-of-trucking/

But yes, for long haul truckers, hydrogen or e-fuel might make more sense than BEV. The best solution is still being worked on.

 

51 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Those kinds of analysis are being done largely by people who have vested interests one way or the other, so it is not possible to tell their accuracy, we have seen carmakers go to great lengths to cover up certain issues, distort figures, and so we have witnessed the same with all kinds of politicians from all kinds of parties and countries, how do we know which or indeed if any of them are telling the truth?

Ok, what about the IEEE, IET and MIT?  What interest do they have for mass EV adoption?

On 18/08/2023 at 22:22, wyx087 said:

MIT the university: https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-electric-vehicles-definitely-better-climate-gas-powered-cars

Quote

although electric cars' batteries make them more carbon-intensive to manufacture than gas cars, they more than make up for it by driving much cleaner under nearly any conditions.

 

IEEE: https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2659316104

Titled:   Why EVs Aren't a Climate Change Panacea  

Unless people change their behaviors, we won't hit 2050 net zero emissions targets

 

This IEEE Spectrum article somewhat echoes your view that it will not solve climate crisis. But it effectively says one of primary reason is the slow adoption speed.

Quote

There are two major reasons for this: first, EVs are not going to reach the numbers required by 2050 to hit their needed contribution to net zero goals, and even if they did, a host of other personal, social and economic activities must be modified to reach the total net zero mark.

The rest of article goes into the second reason, for example, emissions in other sectors (not transport, which is kind of off-topic IMO) and EV manufacturing supply chain concerns.

 

There are many similar balanced articles in IET E&T magazine.

For example this issue is especially talking about EV's:

https://eandt.theiet.org/tags/volume-17-issue-9

 

 

54 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Once again, this is not proven to be a fact, currently you seem to be admitting that now an EV is not actually greener. There is also no proof that there will enough power to be go round to enable people to recharge their cars, yes OK the politicians say that there will be, but we all know that what they say, and what they do are two completely different things and likewise the power companies fall into the same category.

So, you won't listen to power company, the people in the know.

 

But for reference, here are what those experts are saying:

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/future-energy/our-progress-towards-net-zero/net-zero-explained/electric-vehicles/evs-and

"We estimate that up to 37.4 million Electric Vehicles (EVs) will be on UK roads by 2050 – that’s a huge increase on today, where there are fewer than 1 million.  

Such numbers will see EVs playing an important role in transforming the electricity system, with things like smart charging, ‘vehicle to grid’ technology and charging behaviour key to helping bring down carbon emissions. "

 

Which sentence, which word, in which post am I admitting that now an EV is not actually greener?

 

 

58 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Off Topic, How do you create posts with multiple quotes in it like your one, I don't seem to be able to do it. When I click on the + button for a multiple quote, it changes to a ✔️ but I still cannot split the post up like yours?

Highlight the text and press the "quote selection" button that pops up. It's much easier on a computer, but doable on mobile.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The problem being is that the battery is not akin to a new engine, though. It is in reality, just a glorified fuel tank and that is it in its simplest form, the engine would be the electric motor(s), this makes it very hard to fully grasp the cost comparison between EV and ICE.

Fossil fuel (petrol/diesel) in its liquid form is useless. Out of the fuel tank it must be burned to extract energy.

Battery at its terminals produce useful electric energy that can be easily turned into kinetic/heat energy.

So battery in EV's is comparable to the engine in the sense that it is the main component of the vehicle responsible for producing useful form of energy.

 

Put it another way, when the cabin of the car reaches 50c in the sun like today, can you take fuel out of fuel tank to cool down the cabin without involvement of the engine?

 

19 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The problem is still higher no matter which way it is dressed up, Telslas are still seen as premium brands and it is the mass market cars like the Golf that most people can hope of affording, surely you're not suggesting that folk who cannot afford a better class of car which will retain a higher value should go carless are you???

In VW configuration, paste in this code: "VFK9C6ZX" for a second cheapest "Style" trim Golf 8 spec'd to have similar stuff as standard Model 3.

https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/configurator.html?---={"configuration-step-navigation-service"%3A"%2F%3FconfigStep%3D%7B%22context%22%3A%22mofa-standalone%22%2C%22selectedStep%22%3A%22carline%22%7D"}

After config, Golf costs £37k.

Model 3 costs £43k

£6k difference (or 1/6 price increase) for a more premium brand and more power, 50:50 weight distrusted RWD car sounds like a good deal to me.

 

Every other Golf apart from lowest 3 trim levels, start from £37k. £10k over promised starting price.

EV's are perceived to be more expensive because they always load the cars with equipment. Whereas poverty spec cars are a very sad place to spend time, so one always has to spend a bit more for those options, closing the price difference. (I've always gone for highest non-race trim possible)

Would be interesting to know what insurance companies would think about installing a battery pack from a crashed/written off vehicle.

 

I suspect they would require some kind of certification/inspection from a qualified source, as you would with

CAT S/N.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/scratched-ev-battery-your-insurer-may-have-junk-whole-car-2023-03-20/

 

https://insideevs.com/news/676528/ev-insurance-higher-lack-of-repair-data/

 

Please quote prices INCLUDING VAT as thats what most people will have to pay.

1 hour ago, xman said:

Would be interesting to know what insurance companies would think about installing a battery pack from a crashed/written off vehicle.

 

I suspect they would require some kind of certification/inspection from a qualified source, as you would with

CAT S/N.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/scratched-ev-battery-your-insurer-may-have-junk-whole-car-2023-03-20/

 

https://insideevs.com/news/676528/ev-insurance-higher-lack-of-repair-data/

 

Please quote prices INCLUDING VAT as thats what most people will have to pay.

Yep, its well and good people advocating the use of 2nd hand battery packs but if you had any issues with them, or the car was involved in an accident and the insurance company discovered that you had fitted 2nd battery other than the 12v one. I'd expect them to wash their hands of any responsibility leaving you to pick up the tab, including the other parties claim if it was deemed to be your fault. We have to remember that the insurance companies also have access to data that we don't. I fully expect that their reluctance in respect to 2nd hand battery is because they have extra knowledge that is not in the public domain. 

What reluctance?

People are converting cars professionally & just as amateurs and insuring them now.

As people do with ICE vehicles which have engine numbers and there are rules on what class of insurance write off can or can not have parts used.

Many never report an accident or a rebuild / repair of a vehicle.

 

I expect the Insurers might want to be acting with some degree of corporate responsibility and the UK Government & agencies DfT & DVSA

.

There are so many electrified vehicles around now and ones over a decade getting battery repairs, or replacements or just the rusty car welded and pretty much rebuilt.

Maybe they will be more diligent than they are now with vehicle they sell that then are back on the roads with much of an inspection in lots of cases 

and maybe by not very qualified people.

 

The techs / companies dealing with battery replacements & repairs seem pretty few and far between and knowledgeable but there will be cowboys as in every business or trade.

 

Plenty are doing home conversions and might not even have an inspection & certification which is needed when installing a LPG system to an ICE.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 August, 20232 yr by toot

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. Why would everyone want/need to have a rapid charger?

You said in an earlier post dealing with the range, a quick stop and a 10-minute rapid charge. I was saying that do all cars have the capability of a rapid charge, I know the Telsla and Porsche do but about the more everyday cheaper end of the spectrum cars, are they capable of accepting a rapid charge?

 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Ok, what about the IEEE, IET and MIT?  What interest do they have for mass EV adoption?

Well the first 2 are more to do with electrical engineering than motor industry therefore increased work for their members building the required infrastructure

 

and the 3rd is a university in America, which may have interests not declared, i.e., need to know who is bankrolling them for their reports and what linkage to those people have to other things going on around the world etc.

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

MIT the university: https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-electric-vehicles-definitely-better-climate-gas-powered-cars

Quote

although electric cars' batteries make them more carbon-intensive to manufacture than gas cars, they more than make up for it by driving much cleaner under nearly any conditions.

The above statement is incorrect, it all depends on how often and for how many miles the cars are driven, many cars are sold at auctions many years after they were purchased and they have garage queens for most of their life with only a few thousand miles on the clock. I personally know the owner of a few cars like that, keeps the cars in air-conditioned bubbles with battery savers plugged it to keep the battery topped up. He recently sold at auction a Audi TT 4WD with 1,820 miles on the clock.

 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

So, you won't listen to power company, the people in the know.

Ok, what about the IEEE, IET and MIT?  What interest do they have for mass EV adoption?

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

So, you won't listen to power company, the people in the know.

 

Think about it, Power companies, of course they have a vested interest, they want to sell you their power don't they?

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Fossil fuel (petrol/diesel) in its liquid form is useless. Out of the fuel tank it must be burned to extract energy.

Battery at its terminals produce useful electric energy that can be easily turned into kinetic/heat energy.

So battery in EV's is comparable to the engine in the sense that it is the main component of the vehicle responsible for producing useful form of energy.

 

Put it another way, when the cabin of the car reaches 50c in the sun like today, can you take fuel out of fuel tank to cool down the cabin without involvement of the engine?

 

Electric in a battery is very like liquid petrol/diesel, if you spill or leave the filler cap off, liquid fuel will evaporate and you get zero benefit from it, likewise electric in a battery will not remain there for ever, batteries will self discharge internally, very slowly. Now when it comes to cars, you can only drive the car in both cases by using either the liquid fuels you mentioned or battery, when it comes to your cooling example, there some AC plants around that use liquid fuels just as you can liquid fuel powered heaters, often used in caravans and even in some Skodas you have diesel powered heating that you can even control from a phone app to preheat the car in really cold countries. So the battery really is nothing more than a fuel tank, full of fuel when charged and empty when its discharged.

 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

In VW configuration, paste in this code: "VFK9C6ZX" for a second cheapest "Style" trim Golf 8 spec'd to have similar stuff as standard Model 3.

https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/configurator.html?---={"configuration-step-navigation-service"%3A"%2F%3FconfigStep%3D%7B%22context%22%3A%22mofa-standalone%22%2C%22selectedStep%22%3A%22carline%22%7D"}

After config, Golf costs £37k.

Model 3 costs £43k

£6k difference (or 1/6 price increase) for a more premium brand and more power, 50:50 weight distrusted RWD car sounds like a good deal to me.

 

Every other Golf apart from lowest 3 trim levels, start from £37k. £10k over promised starting price.

EV's are perceived to be more expensive because they always load the cars with equipment. Whereas poverty spec cars are a very sad place to spend time, so one always has to spend a bit more for those options, closing the price difference. (I've always gone for highest non-race trim possible)

Yeah, unfortunately like you said once before a Golf is a ICE car firstly that has been modified to become EV, and is seen as a premium brand, this will make it a fairly expensive car, maybe a Renault Zeo or a Vauxhall Corsa might have been a better example. Elon Musk understands that he needs to be in the mass market area and that is why he has said that he hopes to be launching a cheaper car for the mass market about 2025ish.

 

 

Thanks for explaining how to do this kind of post, it has been a big help, I'd been looking for a solution for some time, once again thanks.

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Fossil fuel (petrol/diesel) in its liquid form is useless. Out of the fuel tank it must be burned to extract energy.

Battery at its terminals produce useful electric energy that can be easily turned into kinetic/heat energy.

So battery in EV's is comparable to the engine in the sense that it is the main component of the vehicle responsible for producing useful form of energy.

 

EV <> ICE

Electric motor <> Engine

Battery <> Fuel tank

Electric Charge <> Liquid Fuel

 

An advantage ICE has over EV is an EV battery is much heavier than a fuel tank filled with liquid fuel with equivalent range. And as the ICE uses up the fuel, it gets lighter, unlike an EV discharging its battery.

Some might consider the ability to carry some liquid fuel in a hand held container to top up a tank as maybe useful.

Being able to carry fuel, go further, tow stuff and not have to be charging cars is fandabydozy.

It has been how thing have been for many many decades and will be for many more.

 

The issue is that Governments have decided that manufacturers and vehicles sold & registered in Europe including the UK require the manufacturers to meet average Co2 emission figures or pay penalties so the manufacturers are electrifying vehicles so that happens.

Even using partner manufacturers that only manufacture electric cars.

 

It is not complicated it is just how it goes and nobody has been forced to drive EV,s other than maybe Employees who are provided with what they drive and have to like it or lump it.

11 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Indeed, vast majority of ICE works perfectly fine until car is beyond economical repair, as you said, these days it's usually not the engine.

Similarly, majority of EV's don't experience battery problem.

 

Of course, the true stats that we need for comparison is not available. But I suspect due to first-generation nature of early EV's, the failure rate will be higher than established and refined ICE.

 

 

Worst of all an EV engine with quite a lot of miles on even 50k or more, oft are well down on power, piston rings leaking, gas output from the tail pipe far worse than when new, and power much less, sometime as little as three quarters or half original figures.  That was my experience whilst working on a rolling road for Piper many years ago.

 

Where as an EV just keep trundling along. Its engine/motor not changing ts zero emission year after year, hardly producing any brake dust.  Hopefully tyres will get better both as an energy sap and pollution wise.

 

 

 

Many years ago?

 

Many many years ago more like.

 

Its been close to 30 years since  the emissions standards changed whereby vehicles had to be able to run for 100000kms without any maintenance whatsoever, no oil changes, no spark plugs etc and still remain within the emissions limits for the new vehicle.

 

What your experience was in the 70's with a liberal dose of exaggeration is not relevant today.

52 minutes ago, toot said:

Being able to carry fuel, go further, tow stuff and not have to be charging cars is fandabydozy.

It has been how thing have been for many many decades and will be for many more.

 

The issue is that Governments have decided that manufacturers and vehicles sold & registered in Europe including the UK require the manufacturers to meet average Co2 emission figures or pay penalties so the manufacturers are electrifying vehicles so that happens.

Even using partner manufacturers that only manufacture electric cars.

 

It is not complicated it is just how it goes and nobody has been forced to drive EV,s other than maybe Employees who are provided with what they drive and have to like it or lump it.

Nobody is currently apart from certain employees maybe forced to drive EVs, but come 2030 anyone who wants to buy a brand-new car will not a choice, it will have to be some form of EV but I can see that will not last for long before they mandate that ICE cars of a certain vintage will not be allowed on the roads and from then on they will get steadily more aggressive until there are no ICE cars allowed on the roads, then they will turn their attention onto hybrids. The only thing that will stop them is if some sort of massive runaway event occurs, with a lot of lives being lost. Although, thinking about it, that sort of happened with the Grenfell Tower blaze, but they still carried on building with flammable cladding on the outside, so maybe they won't change course. 

@J.R.What 'legislation', laws or myth is this about vehicles having to run for 100000kms without maintenance? (62,000 odd miles)

Is this EU or Global? 

 

Where can we or me find this information? 

 

@Graham ButcherMaybe you might not last that long if you can not stop concerning yourself over something you have no control over.

Maybe while you can by another near new car or new one before the date that the UK law / legislation changes and run it for the rest of your driving days.

 

What a bunch of sh1tes those nasty politicians are and commissioners and bl00dy greens and spoil sports for die in the wool petrol heads or die in agony with breathing difficulties or cancers. 

Edited 23 August, 20232 yr by toot

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

You said in an earlier post dealing with the range, a quick stop and a 10-minute rapid charge. I was saying that do all cars have the capability of a rapid charge, I know the Telsla and Porsche do but about the more everyday cheaper end of the spectrum cars, are they capable of accepting a rapid charge?

All EV's (excluding "quad bike" such as Ami and that Renault thingy), from every spectrum, have the capability to rapid charge using the single plug standard in Europe known as CCS.

Nissan Leaf and a few other early Nissan only support Chademo rapid charging. This is an Japanese standard that is not mandated by EU.

Early Zoe only support 22 kW AC charging, still fast enough for its battery if you can find 22 kW charge points. Last few years, Zoe 50 have CCS rapid charging.

 

A comparable car to the Golf would be MG4, starting from £27k (Golf starts from £26.5k for a manual). This have CCS rapid charging as well as LFP battery giving around 200 miles of range.

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

The above statement is incorrect, it all depends on how often and for how many miles the cars are driven, many cars are sold at auctions many years after they were purchased and they have garage queens for most of their life with only a few thousand miles on the clock. I personally know the owner of a few cars like that, keeps the cars in air-conditioned bubbles with battery savers plugged it to keep the battery topped up. He recently sold at auction a Audi TT 4WD with 1,820 miles on the clock.

The statement is correct for vast majority of cars being produced because vast majority of cars are being used. You are using an extreme use case just for argument sake.

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Think about it, Power companies, of course they have a vested interest, they want to sell you their power don't they?

The National Grid ESO (second link in my earlier post) is not a power company. They don't sell energy. They are responsible for ensure smooth operation of the electrical grid.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/policy-and-regulatory-programmes/electricity-system-operator-eso-regulation

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yeah, unfortunately like you said once before a Golf is a ICE car firstly that has been modified to become EV, and is seen as a premium brand, this will make it a fairly expensive car, maybe a Renault Zeo or a Vauxhall Corsa might have been a better example. Elon Musk understands that he needs to be in the mass market area and that is why he has said that he hopes to be launching a cheaper car for the mass market about 2025ish.

The Dacia Spring is rumoured to be "well under £20k", will be on sale next year: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-spring-city-ev-finally-confirmed-uk-sales-2024

Corsa petrol starts from £19k.

 

 

1 hour ago, xman said:

EV <> ICE

Electric motor <> Engine

Battery <> Fuel tank

Electric Charge <> Liquid Fuel

From purely vehicle powertrain point of view, this is true.

But BEV are more than a car, batteries are the new frontier (to quote an old thread title).

Battery can provide more electrical power than a running engine can provide, this is useful for many things other than moving a vehicle.

Battery can also store excess renewable by charging slowly on command. Battery can even be used to support and balance the grid using V2G.

 

 

In case that is missed above.

Not all have the ability to CCS / DC rapid charge, like the Renault Zoe,s still being given to people for work or bought that only charge AC 22 kW.

 

Certainly in Scotland there are lots of areas without 22 AC charging. 

Or if there is some with a hybrid with 3.6 kW charging might sit hours on them, or 7 kW / 11 kW max AC onboard charger cars are. 

Edited 23 August, 20232 yr by toot

5 minutes ago, toot said:

What 'legislation', laws or myth is this about vehicles having to run for 100000kms without maintenance? (62,000 odd miles)

Is this EU or Global? 

 

California, the EU emissions standards of the time safely exceeded it.

 

It was what brought in long life oils, wasted spark twin coil packs, platinum point spark plugs and most noticably a massive increase in air filter surface area.

By the way, I just went to edit my post in reply to @wyx087 to add in that the Audi TT was 20 years old with just 1,820 genuine miles, and he has other cars kept in identical conditions with similar mileage figures. Just look around on AutoTrader and similar sites and you find similar low mileage cars being offered for sale. In cases like that, an EV car will have generated far greater emissions before it even rolls out of the showroom.

@J.R.Is this for petrols only. because plenty vehicles with diesel engines required a change of the bags that held the liquid need to reduce emissions.

Annually / 10,000 miles or sooner.

 

The Long Life oils are not 60,000 miles plus, or the oil filters.

Subaru (20,000) and Lexus (much longer service intervals) and had to change back as vehicle were going without inspection of steering, suspension, braking.

Edited 23 August, 20232 yr by toot

58 minutes ago, toot said:

@J.R.What 'legislation', laws or myth is this about vehicles having to run for 100000kms without maintenance? (62,000 odd miles)

Is this EU or Global? 

 

Where can we or me find this information? 

 

@Graham ButcherMaybe you might not last that long if you can not stop concerning yourself over something you have no control over.

Maybe while you can by another near new car or new one before the date that the UK law / legislation changes and run it for the rest of your driving days.

 

What a bunch of sh1tes those nasty politicians are and commissioners and bl00dy greens and spoil sports for die in the wool petrol heads or die in agony with breathing difficulties or cancers. 

 Given that I'm 75 now, I'd say that is almost certainly going to be the case, so I'm not really concerned about how it will affect me, it's just the principle that I find distasteful and wondering if when we have burnt all our bridges to fossil fuel engines that they might then decide, that they had it all wrong as they discover something nasty that EVs do to humans health etc. just as they did with diesel. So in a way I'm thinking about future generations, when with a really concentrated effort a complete break through for ICE might just be around the corner, with a little bit enticement to do more research. 

Edited 23 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher