Too early to be called conclusive but encouraging early data from Wales

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/wales-20mph-speed-limit-working-27779212?fbclid=IwAR30LHT25LonVPwjkJk_lzP_89bnTJ-l3EmyJGWsc0bxLGWrQ-y5dlYsYCI 

 

Just to clarify; there is no 'blanket ban' on 30mph areas. It's absolute horse kaka from Sunak. Same spin he threw out the other day about no meat taxes.
He was just making things up and claiming to scrap policies that weren't even policies nor planned to be. Now he's claiming he'll end the 'war on motorists'.
IMO, this is electioneering spin so maybe make sure you're registered to vote.

13 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Blanket 20mph is stupid. If people speed, it's because they feel it is safe to do so from the road design. The feel of the road should reflect the maximum safe speed of the road. 20mph is only needed at strategic locations where requires large open design but not safe to drive fast, eg. school gates.

 

The stress argument doesn't stand, just set ACC at 20mph (or speed limiter) and don't stress about it.

 

Finally, drivers like to think ourselves as main user of the road, the video talks about educating other road users. But the truth is, private cars and allowing cars to dominate roads are the worst use of public space possible.

 

 

Public spaces are safer and nicer when there's no cars on the roads. It's so nice walking on podestrianlised roads. Personally I hate old traditional style High Street where shops are at street level, it is both difficult to find parking to go to shops, and difficult to use it as a street to get to places. Worst of both worlds that I try to avoid as much as possible.

And yet, when the situation is reversed and cars only have limited or even in some cases no access to the roads, the law and order seems to break down rather rapidly. The Photo shows a shopping area in Debden, where there is now a massive area devoted to the public and pedestrians and since this happened the area is now a massive black spot for anti-social behaviour and is getting extra police attention as a result. Much the same thing has happened in Chelmsford where the high street has been pedestrianised and we have a problem with the same thing, and a man was recently beaten up for half an hour before the emergency services arrived to save him, despite the police station only being 500 yards away, these areas become black spots and no-go areas when the shops close because there almost no reason for anyone to venture down there, so little chance of such behaviour been seen and reported.

Edited 30 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

Pedestrians have priority. A rule which too many folk seem to have forgotten.

On 28/09/2023 at 17:47, toot said:

Those 17 year olds spotty oik are only 2 years old now and likely will not be anything like a 17 year old today.

A sort of slushy snowflake?

12 minutes ago, @Lee said:

Pedestrians have priority. A rule which too many folk seem to have forgotten.

Well that is daft and crackers, a rule decided upon by people who don't clearly know anything about infrastructures etc. That is why we have things like zebra, and pelican crossings etc to give pedestrians a safe route to cross the roads, which are the domain of road vehicles. The only logical conclusion to make a such a daft rule, is that regardless of what vehicles we have be it an ICE or EV, they want to get us out of cars altogether and develop 15-minute cities. 😲

Edited 30 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

10 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well that is daft and crackers, a rule decided upon by people who don't clearly know anything about infrastructures etc. That is why we have things like zebra, and pelican crossings etc to give pedestrians a safe route to cross the roads, which are the domain of road vehicles. The only logical conclusion to make a such a daft rule, is that regardless of what vehicles we have be it an ICE or EV, they want to get us out of cars altogether and develop 15-minute cities. 😲

Roads in the UK are not the domain of road vehicles and never have been. (Motorways excluded) Pedestrians have priority. This isn't anything new. 

Fifteen minute cities?  What YouTube rabbit holes have you fallen into?

Edited 30 September, 20232 yr by @Lee

1 hour ago, @Lee said:

Too early to be called conclusive but encouraging early data from Wales

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/wales-20mph-speed-limit-working-27779212?fbclid=IwAR30LHT25LonVPwjkJk_lzP_89bnTJ-l3EmyJGWsc0bxLGWrQ-y5dlYsYCI 

 

Just to clarify; there is no 'blanket ban' on 30mph areas. It's absolute horse kaka from Sunak. Same spin he threw out the other day about no meat taxes.
He was just making things up and claiming to scrap policies that weren't even policies nor planned to be. Now he's claiming he'll end the 'war on motorists'.
IMO, this is electioneering spin so maybe make sure you're registered to vote.

 

We found similar initially when doing similar studies but also found those reductions don't last and a few months later speeds were back up.

 

Ideally you need long term data and at least 5 years of accident data to determine if it will work.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

And yet, when the situation is reversed and cars only have limited or even in some cases no access to the roads, the law and order seems to break down rather rapidly. The Photo shows a shopping area in Debden, where there is now a massive area devoted to the public and pedestrians and since this happened the area is now a massive black spot for anti-social behaviour and is getting extra police attention as a result. Much the same thing has happened in Chelmsford where the high street has been pedestrianised and we have a problem with the same thing, and a man was recently beaten up for half an hour before the emergency services arrived to save him, despite the police station only being 500 yards away, these areas become black spots and no-go areas when the shops close because there almost no reason for anyone to venture down there, so little chance of such behaviour been seen and reported.

 

That is a lack of passive safety and security provided by pass by traffic of any sort, vehicular or non motorised, and the natural oversight provided by it.

42 minutes ago, @Lee said:

Roads in the UK are not the domain of road vehicles and never have been. (Motorways excluded) Pedestrians have priority. This isn't anything new. 

Fifteen minute cities?  What YouTube rabbit holes have you fallen into?

No rabbit hole I assure you, I worked on design projects for one just outside Bicester years ago and Sadig Khan is the chair of the organisation pushing them and also the low emmision zones. In 2025 he will be making Blackwall Tunnel and the new Woolwich tunnels into toll tunnels at a proposed £7.50 fee, we're you aware of that? 

58 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well that is daft and crackers, a rule decided upon by people who don't clearly know anything about infrastructures etc. That is why we have things like zebra, and pelican crossings etc to give pedestrians a safe route to cross the roads, which are the domain of road vehicles. The only logical conclusion to make a such a daft rule, is that regardless of what vehicles we have be it an ICE or EV, they want to get us out of cars altogether and develop 15-minute cities. 😲

 

No it's called the hierarchy of road users which is determined by their vulnerability 

1 minute ago, skomaz said:

 

No it's called the hierarchy of road users which is determined by their vulnerability 

I didn't mean it was open season on them, clearly even on motorways you give way to them crossing. Even though they shouldn't be on motorways. That does not give them the right to use road as if they own it, they have to consider other users, ie, drivers

15 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I didn't mean it was open season on them, clearly even on motorways you give way to them crossing. Even though they shouldn't be on motorways. That does not give them the right to use road as if they own it, they have to consider other users, ie, drivers

 

Noted and agree...   All users should be aware of other users and also take responsibility for their own and others safety. 

1 hour ago, @Lee said:

Fifteen minute cities?

 

 

They are a thing...   The aim of them is for everybody to have access to basic needs and requirements within 15 minutes walk from their home. 

1 hour ago, @Lee said:

Pedestrians have priority. A rule which too many folk seem to have forgotten.

Is that actually true? Do you have some reference to it?

 

I very much doubt that pedestrians have priority on A roads, dual carriageways or motorways, possibly in 30 MPH limits in built up areas. I completely agree with the principle of hierarchy dependant on vulnerability but what does UK law say?

 

I remember being in court when I was young, sadly a not infrequent occurrence, the case before me was a motorist who had driven over a cyclist on a pedestrian crossing, he was absolved because the cyclist was riding the bike and not pushing it.

 

In France pedestrians have absolute priority in Zone 30's (already described) and on passage pietons, but the law also says that elsewhere they should signal their intent to cross a road and if there is a passage pieton within 50 meters they must use it, you will be fined if observed by a Gendarme crossing a road within 50 meters (it might be 25) of a pedestrian crossing, if you cause an accident or are run over you are responsable for the physical and corporal damages suffered by the 3rd parties.

 

Because if this all house insurances give cover for responsabilité civile for the policyholder and his family outside of the dwelling, it also covers accidental damage they may cause to a rented gîte etc.

table-of-change-to-the-highway-code.pdf

1 hour ago, skomaz said:

 

They are a thing...   The aim of them is for everybody to have access to basic needs and requirements within 15 minutes walk from their home. 

 

Oh I'm well aware of them. TBH I don't think that done correctly having your basic needs within walking distance is a bad idea either.
I'm also aware that too many folk out there seem to think it's some conspiracy to control the masses and keep them fenced in and surveilled.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/15-minute-city-conspiracy-theory-essex-county-council-1.6808005

Edited 30 September, 20232 yr by @Lee

34 minutes ago, toot said:

table-of-change-to-the-highway-code.pdf 254.6 kB · 2 downloads

Rule 8 At a junction. When you are crossing or waiting to cross the road, other traffic should give way. Look out for traffic turning into the road, especially from behind you, and cross at a place where drivers can see you. If you have started crossing and traffic wants to turn into the road, you have priority and they should give way (see Rules H2 and 170)

 

I believe to be particularly dangerous as you may be turning left from a major road into a turning with limited vision due to bushes or a building preventing you from seeing if there people waiting to cross or indeed crossing. You stop as soon as you see them, only to have someone shunt you into the pedestrians because your back end is still on the major road. This is why I say that the rules have not been properly thought through. All too often, I come across zebra crossings located less than  cars length from such junctions and is an accident waiting to happen.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

 In 2025 he will be making Blackwall Tunnel and the new Woolwich tunnels into toll tunnels at a proposed £7.50 fee, we're you aware of that? 

 

Yes, well aware thanks but last I read the other week in the Times it was 'up to' £4 for cars. 

9 minutes ago, @Lee said:

 

Yes, well aware thanks but last I read the other week in the Times it was 'up to' £4 for cars. 

OK, say its £4, then ULEZ £12.50, and if you drive into central London and another £15 congestion charge, it is all becoming a cash grab and just London. There are similar schemes being planned in other locations as well. So a person who drives a non-compliant car, pays £12.50, then if they have to cross the river they pay again and then maybe a congestion charge, so at best they may have to pay £16.50 or £27.50 a day. And they will say it's all part of cleaner air for London, so use the underground instead and there the air is actually hazardous to health with air quality many times worse than it is on the roads. 

Edited 30 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

26 minutes ago, @Lee said:

 

Oh I'm well aware of them. TBH I don't think that done correctly having your basic needs within walking distance is a bad idea either.
I'm also aware that too many folk out there seem to think it's some conspiracy to control the masses and keep them fenced in and surveilled.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/15-minute-city-conspiracy-theory-essex-county-council-1.6808005

Interesting in that the article also references the plans in Oxford for similar and Bicester in Oxfordshire, confirming my post.

18 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Surely the education is a good thing, so many parents these days have zero idea where or what their children are doing as long as they aren't under their feet that seems to be the only thing they care about. There is a balance to be made, cars don't normally drive on the footpaths, pedestrians should also understand that once they put a foot onto the road, they are placing themselves in danger and children should be taught that roads is not the place to play and that they need to respect the space allocated to the various users.

 

Not all cars have ACC or indeed any form of CC at all, and IIRC, early versions of CC could not be set below 40 or 30mph.

Actually ACC is not suitable, what you need is a speed limiter, my doesn't have that, do the latest Superbs have it? 

20 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Surely the education is a good thing, so many parents these days have zero idea where or what their children are doing as long as they aren't under their feet that seems to be the only thing they care about. There is a balance to be made, cars don't normally drive on the footpaths, pedestrians should also understand that once they put a foot onto the road, they are placing themselves in danger and children should be taught that roads is not the place to play and that they need to respect the space allocated to the various users.

This right here is the mentality that gives rise to yesterday's government announcement in their bid to win votes.

 

I would argue it is highly situational dependent, and good road design should be used solve it. In residential area or for example near school gates, pedestrian steeping down from the kerb should not fear for their lives. It should be a shared space, and as said, hierarchy of vulnerable road users.

 

In a small closed residential road, it is absolutely the place for kids to play.

 

19 hours ago, @Lee said:

I'd agree if there was a 'blanket 20mph' but there isn't. Even Sunak had to lie about it. No great shocker there mind.

Apologies, I was only replying to what was said in the video Graham posted. The guy in the video was ranting about blanket 20mph.

 

Yesterday's government announcement had all the keywords to please the tin foil hat/car is king crowd: "20mph...blanket use", "stop ..... 15-minute cities", "freedom to drive", "private car is vilified"

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-announces-new-long-term-plan-to-back-drivers

 

  

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

they want to get us out of cars altogether and develop 15-minute cities. 😲

15 min cities are great things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city

"The 15-minute city (FMC or 15mC)^{[2][3][4][5][6][7]} is an urban planning concept in which most daily necessities and services, such as work, shopping, education, healthcare, and leisure can be easily reached by a 15-minute walk or bike ride from any point in the city.^[8] This approach aims to reduce car dependency, promote healthy and sustainable living, and improve wellbeing and quality of life for city dwellers.^[9][10]"

 

I'm fully supportive of 15 minute cities.

 

  

5 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

OK, say its £4, then ULEZ £12.50, and if you drive into central London and another £15 congestion charge, it is all becoming a cash grab and just London. There are similar schemes being planned in other locations as well. So a person who drives a non-compliant car, pays £12.50, then if they have to cross the river they pay again and then maybe a congestion charge, so at best they may have to pay £16.50 or £27.50 a day. And they will say it's all part of cleaner air for London, so use the underground instead and there the air is actually hazardous to health with air quality many times worse than it is on the roads. 

It's a tiered approach and I think it makes sense. Blackwall Tunnel is £4, Dartford crossing is £2 using autopay. Clearly asking drivers to only drive the more congested route if necessary. Case in point, I've been to Kent via Blackwall tunnel a few times just because it's free and only 10min extra driving time. The route is actually more logical to take Dartford crossing.

  

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Actually ACC is not suitable, what you need is a speed limiter, my doesn't have that, do the latest Superbs have it? 

My 2013 Octavia with ACC was able to speed up/slow down with it set at lowest 18 or 22 or 24 mph, I don't recall. I'm sure lowest limit was a speed that wouldn't trigger 20mph camera. I just hover my foot on the brake ready for pedestrian on the road.

How times change.

 

 

Edited 30 September, 20232 yr by Stonekeeper

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

This right here is the mentality that gives rise to yesterday's government announcement in their bid to win votes.

 

I would argue it is highly situational dependent, and good road design should be used solve it. In residential area or for example near school gates, pedestrian steeping down from the kerb should not fear for their lives. It should be a shared space, and as said, hierarchy of vulnerable road users.

 

In a small closed residential road, it is absolutely the place for kids to play.

 

Apologies, I was only replying to what was said in the video Graham posted. The guy in the video was ranting about blanket 20mph.

 

Yesterday's government announcement had all the keywords to please the tin foil hat/car is king crowd: "20mph...blanket use", "stop ..... 15-minute cities", "freedom to drive", "private car is vilified"

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-announces-new-long-term-plan-to-back-drivers

 

 

Pedestrians stepping down from the kerb should not fear for their lives, correct, but that does not give them the right to expect a motorist to stop a vehicle on a sixpence just because the pedestrian wants to intrude on the space normally associated with vehicles, equally a pedestrian should fear for their lives with vehicles driving along on the footpaths either. Vehicles do not normally do that except at very low speeds while attempting to park in order not to block a narrow roadway. A pedestrian wanting to cross a road should be fully aware of their own vulnerability and exercise due diligence when entering a zone known to contain moving vehicles. Its called self-preservation.

 

As to "In a small closed residential road, it is absolutely the place for kids to play" what makes you think that? What are gardens and parks for, then? By the phrase "a small closed residential road", are alluding to a dead end road like a close, for example? If so I live in one of those and only has 20 houses in it but it gets busy at times and its never a good idea to let children get comfortable being on a road especially when they are playing and paying due diligence for their own safety. They should be taught to understand that roads are not ever a good place to play, or are parents just too lazy to take their children's safety seriously and take them to a park where they can play in safety 

 

As regards to tin foil hat/car is king, do you love the use of slogans and sound bites, like "It's the will of the People" etc 🙄

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

15 min cities are great things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city

"The 15-minute city (FMC or 15mC)^{[2][3][4][5][6][7]} is an urban planning concept in which most daily necessities and services, such as work, shopping, education, healthcare, and leisure can be easily reached by a 15-minute walk or bike ride from any point in the city.^[8] This approach aims to reduce car dependency, promote healthy and sustainable living, and improve wellbeing and quality of life for city dwellers.^[9][10]"

 

I'm fully supportive of 15 minute cities.

You really don't think that there might well be another reason why they don't want large cities like London in the future and being less able to freely move to other cities in large numbers? Really?

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

It's a tiered approach and I think it makes sense. Blackwall Tunnel is £4, Dartford crossing is £2 using autopay. Clearly asking drivers to only drive the more congested route if necessary. Case in point, I've been to Kent via Blackwall tunnel a few times just because it's free and only 10min extra driving time. The route is actually more logical to take Dartford crossing.

The distance between route A or route B might also be a major issue to some people when they have to pay per mile for their travel, as it is also increasingly looking like we all will be doing before too long, and also paying more for busy periods. Also, do you seriously believe that the Dartford Crossing fee will not rise as well?

 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

My 2013 Octavia with ACC was able to speed up/slow down with it set at lowest 18 or 22 or 24 mph, I don't recall. I'm sure lowest limit was a speed that wouldn't trigger 20mph camera. I just hover my foot on the brake ready for pedestrian on the road.

It is actually very difficult to average just 20mph driving in a city or most towns these days even in the dead of night as there few straight long roads that have a 30mph speed limit, most are short and there is a frequent need to go round corners, roundabouts and navigate traffic lights etc and bringing speed limits down to 20mph will just further compound the problem even more and will mean that average speed will drop even further and journey times will increase, just think about it, it is the only conclusion you can arrive at. Even driving across London's centre at 2:00AM yields an average speed of just 26kmh, which translates to just 16.1 mph, thats 3.9mph below the proposed speed limits and just 17kmh or 8mph at peak times.

 

The best solution for that type of driving is not a cruise control, but a speed limiter that does not get disengaged each time you are forced to brake or stop, but allows you, the driver to decide what is the right speed to suit the conditions while not allowing to exceed the limit even for a moment, because you forgot to keep re-engaging the ACC.

 

 

London is the world's slowest city | TomTom Newsroom

Edited 30 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

2 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

How times change.

 

 

Yep, thats about right, people are just to preoccupied with their mobile phones keeping up with social media to take control of their safety and they walk around like zombies 🤣