10 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Correct.

 

Who he?

 

https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/others/roy-sullivan-struck-lightning-seven-times

 

But he was not always in the same place 😉

Edited 3 October, 20232 yr by Stonekeeper

Yes he was in or around his work or home so that is a place, maybe a big place being a National Park in the USA. 

He was never out of his body unless having out of body experiences, maybe while struck by lightening. 

 

@J.R.  Might not believe things unless he was their and experienced and sees it with his own eyes which is fair enough.

Edited 3 October, 20232 yr by toot

Has anyone seen this problem with MG EV's at all or know of anything similar happening to other EV's?

 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

You still have not grasped what I said. You want to use ONLY electric that has come from renewable sources, and your supplier claims that all your electric was renewable sourced energy. As far as you know, that is what you have been using, but secretly your supplier was actually only able to source a third of your power used, from renewable sources, the other 2 thirds came from fossil generated sources unbeknown to you. It does not matter if your supplier does actually the missing two thirds of your power at a later date from a renewable supplier, you never actually used that power that thought was green power, and you also paid extra for something you never got let along used. 

 

Your supplier might never get around to buying the missing thirds that you paid for, because your supplier had to obviously buy the power that you used from an alternative supplier who used fossil fuel to generate it. The only way that you could be 100% certain that you were only using renewable is to generate it yourself, or all of the power supplied on the national grid is 100% renewable.

 

Your car runs exactly the same whether you charge the battery with fossil generated or renewable sources generated power, so you would never actually know any different.

First, why "It does not matter if your supplier does actually the missing two thirds of your power at a later date from a renewable supplier"? (btw, we talk in energy not power) Energy use is replenished by renewable sources. The most important thing is that funding does not go to fossil fuel energy sources.  Assuming supplier sticks to their contract, which brings us to second point.

 

Second, what makes you so sure all energy supplier will break contract? You've seen the certified sources claims, if you question this, you should be able to request their certificates and dig deeper to find out for yourself. I trust there are regulatory bodies to ensure no false advertising.

 

Third, the UK grid is getting cleaner year by year. IF for some reason an EV driver isn't on green supplier, all EV will still get greener as it ages because the grid is getting greener.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/uk-hits-major-clean-energy-milestone

 

True, EV charged during peak times are more likely to be natural gas powered than renewable. It is clear from grid carbon intensity data. But it doesn't mean the owner is paying the gas company for the privilege. This is important because green suppliers give people ability to vote with their wallet. Which in turn allows building more renewable sources, which allows the nation to be less reliant on fossil fuel.

 

So I have grasped what you are getting at, but you are, once again, ignoring the big picture. Only looking at instantaneous energy generation while ignoring the benefits of green suppliers and overall economics of energy suppliers.

35 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Has anyone seen this problem with MG EV's at all or know of anything similar happening to other EV's?

 

 

That Tesla incident in China is revealed to be human error:

https://carnewschina.com/2023/03/02/tesla-model-y-crash-investigation-revealed-accelerator-was-pressed-100-brakes-not-applied/

https://electrek.co/2023/03/02/deadly-tesla-crash-was-just-pedal-confusion-despite-social-media-rumors/

 

One off incident with MG4 does not have any cause for concern in terms of vehicle safety. However, it is concerning the dummy behind the controls in the story did not think to put the car in neutral or pull the parking brake.

 

Classic PEBACK all round. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/PEBCAK

2 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

That Tesla incident in China is revealed to be human error:

https://carnewschina.com/2023/03/02/tesla-model-y-crash-investigation-revealed-accelerator-was-pressed-100-brakes-not-applied/

https://electrek.co/2023/03/02/deadly-tesla-crash-was-just-pedal-confusion-despite-social-media-rumors/

 

One off incident with MG4 does not have any cause for concern in terms of vehicle safety. However, it is concerning the dummy behind the controls in the story did not think to put the car in neutral or pull the parking brake.

 

Classic PEBACK all round. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/PEBCAK

 

A HCI issue.

Human Computer Interface with the human having a senior moment.  Computer was performing within parameters, human was not.

At the Cracking plant like at Grangemouth the OIl is coming up the Forties Pipeline from Cruden Bay and the Oil needs gas with it to move it along.

Then there is the Shale Gas from America on the INEOS Dragon Bulk Carriers, then gas is producing electricity at their own power station to produce petrochemicals from the Oil.

The highest emissions place in Scotland.

 

It is a dirty game producing energy of any kind, some maybe less dirty and with less long lasting consequences. 

 

Different things for different reasons, minerals of all kinds but it all comes from the ground or out of the air or goes into the air or back into the ground eventually.

Some kills people sooner than others and maybe more painfully. 

 

 

......................

I worry more really about Nut Jobs who walk or drive about us than what they drive or how they fuel them.

 

 

Edited 3 October, 20232 yr by toot

23 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

First, why "It does not matter if your supplier does actually the missing two thirds of your power at a later date from a renewable supplier"? (btw, we talk in energy not power) Energy use is replenished by renewable sources. The most important thing is that funding does not go to fossil fuel energy sources.  Assuming supplier sticks to their contract, which brings us to second point.

 

Second, what makes you so sure all energy supplier will break contract? You've seen the certified sources claims, if you question this, you should be able to request their certificates and dig deeper to find out for yourself. I trust there are regulatory bodies to ensure no false advertising.

 

Third, the UK grid is getting cleaner year by year. IF for some reason an EV driver isn't on green supplier, all EV will still get greener as it ages because the grid is getting greener.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/uk-hits-major-clean-energy-milestone

 

True, EV charged during peak times are more likely to be natural gas powered than renewable. It is clear from grid carbon intensity data. But it doesn't mean the owner is paying the gas company for the privilege. This is important because green suppliers give people ability to vote with their wallet. Which in turn allows building more renewable sources, which allows the nation to be less reliant on fossil fuel.

 

So I have grasped what you are getting at, but you are, once again, ignoring the big picture. Only looking at instantaneous energy generation while ignoring the benefits of green suppliers and overall economics of energy suppliers.

I can see the bigger picture, yes I do understand that the grid is getting greener etc, I have never denied any of this, but the fact still exists that you are so firmly entrenched in the utopia of your idyllic world where everything is smelling of roses, sun is shining and everyone is 1000% honest and when they say XYZ that they mean they will deliver XYZ and that they will also pay the suppliers of the renewable energy, that they actually do that, that cannot see the wood for the trees.

 

What about if the entire UK customer base all decided that they wanted to only use renewable energy and signed up for it, all pay the regular £10 a month for the privilege (bearing in mind that we are in a cost of living crisis) and everyone has just cost themselves £120 less money for living on, while netting the energy companies £6.768 Billion from the 28.2 million households in 2022.  There is no frigging way that the energy suppliers can honestly meet that demand for renewable energy. Do you really expect your supplier is going to say I'm terribly sorry, Mr wyx087 I'm oversubscribed on that scheme and I simply cannot in all good faith continue to accept your £10 a month subscription, and I'm also sorry but your nice new shiny EV will have to swap tailpipe emissions for remote emissions for the foreseeable future until we can get more renewable energy. 

 

Remember, these are the very same people who have been sitting on massive windfall profits and yet still say that they will have to further increase the cost of energy! Yes the government have put in place extra taxation on them, but only a nominal amount, and then turned and effectively given it back to them in the form of an energy price cap for every household in the country, regardless of their financial situation. 

 

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

That Tesla incident in China is revealed to be human error:

https://carnewschina.com/2023/03/02/tesla-model-y-crash-investigation-revealed-accelerator-was-pressed-100-brakes-not-applied/

https://electrek.co/2023/03/02/deadly-tesla-crash-was-just-pedal-confusion-despite-social-media-rumors/

 

One off incident with MG4 does not have any cause for concern in terms of vehicle safety. However, it is concerning the dummy behind the controls in the story did not think to put the car in neutral or pull the parking brake.

 

Classic PEBACK all round. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/PEBCAK

How can you be 100% sure of these facts and also according to the MGEV owners club/forum it is not an isolated incident either, or did you miss that point in the video. So computers can never go wrong and all software can never fail or be wrong and is tested and tested under conditions so it must be right and correct at all times, right? Wrong think back to 1999 and the Post Office when loads of employees were sent to prison for fraud and theft because of faulty software British Post Office scandal - Wikipedia I just do not share your undying belief that everything is all rosy in the world and companies are all squeaky clean.

Edited 3 October, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

A HCI issue.

Human Computer Interface with the human having a senior moment.  Computer was performing within parameters, human was not.

Oh yeah, so it was when the post office workers sent to prison for theft and fraud. British Post Office scandal - Wikipedia

 

Some of you EV fans amaze me in the way that you always defend the EV blindly without even remotely thinking "yeah but what if" 🙄

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh yeah, so it was when the post office workers sent to prison for theft and fraud. British Post Office scandal - Wikipedia

Some of you EV fans amaze me in the way that you always defend the EV blindly without even remotely thinking "yeah but what if" 🙄

 

Software is only as goods as the programmers who write it but machines can be consistent.  Autonomous driving will be approved for general use on the road not when it is perfect but when the software continual and consistently out scores human driving performance.

Systems failures is one of my main areas of audit  and software performance is one of the main areas of failure but usually the human individual not using the machine in the proper is best way through lack of understanding, training etc. 

Post Office incident is an absolute crying shame and one can find several other similar flaws in many types of software. We have to rely on software such as the engine, or electric motor, map in one's car and this is the way of the future.  No cable controlling the butterflies in one's carburettor but all fly by wire.  It is already here.  What I oft see is default value not set to the safe position so with the car analogy default of a failed sensor must create a safe value of slowing or stopping the car rather than Wide Open Throttle.  Not everyone gets this right sadly and these errors may creep though both alpha and beta testing and in the the live customer experience. Lawyers with then makes lots of money as product not fit for purpose.  Probably will always happen with our cars and eventually with our personal space ships jumping in and out of hyperspace to visit someone in another star system but ends up crashing in to their sun due to a system malfunction.  Great word system, can meaning anything.

 

10 hours ago, toot said:

At the Cracking plant like at Grangemouth the OIl is coming up the Forties Pipeline from Cruden Bay and the Oil needs gas with it to move it along.

Then there is the Shale Gas from America on the INEOS Dragon Bulk Carriers, then gas is producing electricity at their own power station to produce petrochemicals from the Oil.  The highest emissions place in Scotland.  It is a dirty game producing energy of any kind, some maybe less dirty and with less long lasting consequences.   Different things for different reasons, minerals of all kinds but it all comes from the ground or out of the air or goes into the air or back into the ground eventually.  Some kills people sooner than others and maybe more painfully.  ......................

I worry more really about Nut Jobs who walk or drive about us than what they drive or how they fuel them.

 

Geoff Buys Cars Youtuber lives close to me, somewhere in the Worcesterestershire area.  Hope I do not come across him and feel the need to call him out as an Agent of Chaos.  (And a Click Bait low life driving around in his dirty old pollution machines). 

 

Edited 4 October, 20232 yr by lol-lol

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

What about if the entire UK customer base all decided that they wanted to only use renewable energy and signed up for it, all pay the regular £10 a month for the privilege (bearing in mind that we are in a cost of living crisis) and everyone has just cost themselves £120 less money for living on, while netting the energy companies £6.768 Billion from the 28.2 million households in 2022.  There is no frigging way that the energy suppliers can honestly meet that demand for renewable energy. Do you really expect your supplier is going to say I'm terribly sorry, Mr wyx087 I'm oversubscribed on that scheme and I simply cannot in all good faith continue to accept your £10 a month subscription, and I'm also sorry but your nice new shiny EV will have to swap tailpipe emissions for remote emissions for the foreseeable future until we can get more renewable energy. 

Hyperbole much?

 

Are you saying (without evidence) that there is no regulatory body for green energy suppliers to ensure they are supplying what they say?

Cos there is: 

https://www.recc.org.uk/

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-and-social-schemes/renewable-energy-guarantees-origin-rego

https://thelawreviews.co.uk/title/the-energy-regulation-and-markets-review/united-kingdom

 

Just like EV adoption, there's no way we'll get 100% subscription for optional stuff like this. The only way for what you said is for most suppliers to go green. In that case, the cost of buying green energy will increase, there will always be cheap suppliers providing the option to not participate. 

 

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Remember, these are the very same people who have been sitting on massive windfall profits and yet still say that they will have to further increase the cost of energy! Yes the government have put in place extra taxation on them, but only a nominal amount, and then turned and effectively given it back to them in the form of an energy price cap for every household in the country, regardless of their financial situation. 

No, not the same people. The windfall profit is on energy producers, mainly fossil fuel based producers. The energy suppliers that we deal with did not gain from the great energy kafuffle of last year. Well, may be some payment for taking on customers of failing suppliers. 

 

Also, energy price cap is set by Ofgem, it is not subsidised by the government. The scheme you are talking about is Energy Price Guarantee. EPG came in months before the windfall tax was introduced. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

How can you be 100% sure of these facts and also according to the MGEV owners club/forum it is not an isolated incident either, or did you miss that point in the video. So computers can never go wrong and all software can never fail or be wrong and is tested and tested under conditions so it must be right and correct at all times, right? 

I am 100% sure of the Chinese Tesla incident was user error. That incident was quoted by the video but he chose to not reference the result of investigation. 

 

User pressing the wrong pedal is a common occurrence. Car wrongly applying power is not. In all cars these days, there's multiple redundancies measuring the accelerator position to prevent such issue. This type of redundancy and finger pointing is not unique to EV's 

https://www.snapon.com/EN/UK/Diagnostics/News-Centre/Technical-Focus-Archive/electronic-throttle-control

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration#:~:text=After this accident%2C Toyota conducted,potential to cause pedal entrapment.

 

Either way, sustained braking is always strong enough to counter-act any turning torque applied by the motor. Key is using the correct pedal and know how to put the car into neutral when in a pinch. 

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

but the fact still exists that you are so firmly entrenched in the utopia of your idyllic world where everything is smelling of roses, sun is shining and everyone is 1000% honest and when they say XYZ that they mean they will deliver XYZ and that they will also pay the suppliers of the renewable energy, that they actually do that, that cannot see the wood for the trees.

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Some of you EV fans amaze me in the way that you always defend the EV blindly without even remotely thinking "yeah but what if" 🙄

Please leave the rants and stereotyping out. It isn't constructive and only discredits yourself. 🙄

To find out who supplies your electricity check this.

 

The person you pay does not supply the electricity they just make a profit from billing?

 

 

 

@wyx087 You really cannot help your self, in the first and last post of mine that you quoted I used the phrase "what if".

 

Like it or not, things can and do go wrong and software is not infallible, and it does not always work perfectly in every instance, hence why your computer very often has updates that need to be installed, even though you may never have experienced problems on yours, but others clearly have, and some things just get covered up for all kinds of reasons, and we often only discover about such things some considerable time further down the timeline.

 

 

 

Edited 4 October, 20232 yr by toot

10 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

To find out who supplies your electricity check this.

 

The person you pay does not supply the electricity they just make a profit from billing?

 

 

 

This shows the network operators, who look after the distribution networks, the main generating companies are EDF, Centrica (British Gas), E.ON, RWE npower, Scottish Power and Southern & Scottish Power.

9 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Geoff Buys Cars Youtuber lives close to me, somewhere in the Worcesterestershire area.  Hope I do not come across him and feel the need to call him out as an Agent of Chaos.  (And a Click Bait low life driving around in his dirty old pollution machines). 

 

I think you are all reading his videos wrong. I don't think he has ever said that he hates EV cars, what he does say is that the user interface is all wrong with everything being controlled by a touch screen that requires you to look at the screen and navigate through menus to get to the thing you wish to change. It seems that is acceptable in the eyes of the law and yet if you touch a mobile phone which requires to do the same thing, even if your just using it for navigation purposes, you could be fined.

 

I just wish people would actually listen to what is being said.

9 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Software is only as goods as the programmers who write it but machines can be consistent.  Autonomous driving will be approved for general use on the road not when it is perfect but when the software continual and consistently out scores human driving performance.

Systems failures is one of my main areas of audit  and software performance is one of the main areas of failure but usually the human individual not using the machine in the proper is best way through lack of understanding, training etc. 

Post Office incident is an absolute crying shame and one can find several other similar flaws in many types of software. We have to rely on software such as the engine, or electric motor, map in one's car and this is the way of the future.  No cable controlling the butterflies in one's carburettor but all fly by wire.  It is already here.  What I oft see is default value not set to the safe position so with the car analogy default of a failed sensor must create a safe value of slowing or stopping the car rather than Wide Open Throttle.  Not everyone gets this right sadly and these errors may creep though both alpha and beta testing and in the the live customer experience. Lawyers with then makes lots of money as product not fit for purpose.  Probably will always happen with our cars and eventually with our personal space ships jumping in and out of hyperspace to visit someone in another star system but ends up crashing in to their sun due to a system malfunction.  Great word system, can meaning anything.

 

I appreciate that many things on ICE cars are controlled by wire, I have experienced total loss of control over the throttle twice so far in my life, both times in a VW Passat when the throttle pedal sensor failed, on 2 separate cars and that was very frightening I can tell you, which is why I am dubious of the findings about the Chinese EV crash at speed when the computer reported that the throttle was being pressed and not the brakes. The throttle might well have been pressed and then it suffered a glitch and lost all control and the system may have frozen and failed to record that brake pedal had been pressed. 

 

My tablets at home will often lock up completely and fail to respond to any inputs and I have to resort to holding the physical power off button and then restarting it. On more than one occasion I have also had to leave it on until the battery died and could not sustain the system any longer, and this happened on a number of tablets, both Apple and Android.

Edited 4 October, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

53 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087 You really cannot help your self, in the first and last post of mine that you quoted I used the phrase "what if".

 

Like it or not, things can and do go wrong and software is not infallible, and it does not always work perfectly in every instance, hence why your computer very often has updates that need to be installed, even though you may never have experienced problems on yours, but others clearly have, and some things just get covered up for all kinds of reasons, and we often only discover about such things some considerable time further down the timeline.

I cannot help myself regarding what exactly? Responding to outlandish assumptions and correcting misinformation/misconception? 

 

Like it or not, critical parts such as accelerator pedal measurement have redundancy. The software may contain bugs but multiple sensors giving the same value wouldn't lie. It would be up to MG to prove it was wrong pedal just as Tesla was able to prove all their incidents were result of human error. Before such outcome, based on all other prior incidents, I would be more inclined to blame the user. 

 

7 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

and the system may have frozen and failed to record that brake pedal had been pressed. 

The brake pedal is ALWAYS physically connected to the braking system. The brake can ALWAYS be operated without software intervention in any car. 

 

OEM specified brakes should always be more powerful than the car propulsion, meaning brake should be able to stop the car even in the even of software glitch. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I cannot help myself regarding what exactly? Responding to outlandish assumptions and correcting misinformation/misconception? 

 

Like it or not, critical parts such as accelerator pedal measurement have redundancy. The software may contain bugs but multiple sensors giving the same value wouldn't lie. It would be up to MG to prove it was wrong pedal just as Tesla was able to prove all their incidents were result of human error. Before such outcome, based on all other prior incidents, I would be more inclined to blame the user. 

 

The brake pedal is ALWAYS physically connected to the braking system. The brake can ALWAYS be operated without software intervention in any car. 

 

OEM specified brakes should always be more powerful than the car propulsion, meaning brake should be able to stop the car even in the even of software glitch. 

 

 

This may not remain the case - it seems that fully fly by wire systems are in development - with no mechanical connection to steering or brakes. Apparently in a move to fully autonomous driving capability. 

Edited 4 October, 20232 yr by Warrior193
repetition

Rishi can use the billions not already wasted on HS2 to get the National Grid nationalised and fit for the UK,s needs.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 October, 20232 yr by toot

@wyx087Never heard of multiple system failures then? Failures are rare just like fires but when they occur the results can be devasting. Just the same with planes crashing, very rare that happens but the consequences are bad. With control by wire there are many things that could cause problems but like plane crashes, they are rare. Also the history books are full of cover ups about events. Lessons are learnt, diesel gate is just one for instance. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

I think you are all reading his videos wrong. I don't think he has ever said that he hates EV cars, what he does say is that the user interface is all wrong with everything being controlled by a touch screen that requires you to look at the screen and navigate through menus to get to the thing you wish to change. It seems that is acceptable in the eyes of the law and yet if you touch a mobile phone which requires to do the same thing, even if your just using it for navigation purposes, you could be fined.

I just wish people would actually listen to what is being said.

 

Sweeping generalisation.  The Renault Zoe, along with the LEAF the founding EVs in Europe has a quite compact and bijou driver display and centre consol tablet, about 9 inch corner to corner, it has knobs for the climate ie blower power, temperature and directing air feed, several other button as well for eco mode, air conditioning override, lights height adjustment, all the windows up and down, mirror controls to name some of them.  Not at all gratuitously weird and similar to my Mark 3 Octavia and other cars before it.  The console in front of the driver is quite this decade but it is what I would expect from any newish car, EV, hybrid or just plain old ICE.

 

Just amazes me that people with so little knowledge get to expound their miniscule knowledge to such an wide audience.  As we say at sea " empty vessels make the most noise".

   

Corsa Electric had all you needed in front of you and change screens on a stalk, as does the MINI Electric as do many EV, s and not just ones that also come as an ICE.   i-Drive selector between the seats of the MINI for the driver or passenger to select or control most of everything the car can do other than the stuff the driver does, 2 pedals, steering and stalks.

If you do not want big screens and you need to touch them just say 'No'. 

Edited 4 October, 20232 yr by toot