1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Any thoughts on this??

 

 

 

Non info.

 

Anyone with a brain knows pretty accurately how much pence or cents per mile it costs in electricity costs, simple maths and simple choosing where to charge economically.

 

Bit more complex than ICE cars where there is a few percent difference in pump prices, lots of other method of paying less for fuel but most the time quite simple.

 

EV charging bit more complex but opportunities to charge for tiny fraction of mainstream EV charging DC chargers or even charge for free some places ie included in stay at hotel etc.

 

Video is US centric where diesel and petrol much cheaper than UK.  Drivers chose EV model Y over petrol Camry for many reasons and running cost is one but they did their homework and I reckon did not rely on government figures but their own cents per kWh and miles per kWh.

 

Edited 20 January, 20242 yr by lol-lol

52 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Non info.

 

Anyone with a brain knows pretty accurately how much pence or cents per mile it costs in electricity costs, simple maths and simple choosing where to charge economically.

 

Bit more complex than ICE cars where there is a few percent difference in pump prices, lots of other method of paying less for fuel but most the time quite simple.

 

EV charging bit more complex but opportunities to charge for tiny fraction of mainstream EV charging DC chargers or even charge for free some places ie included in stay at hotel etc.

 

Video is US centric where diesel and petrol much cheaper than UK.  Drivers chose EV model Y over petrol Camry for many reasons and running cost is one but they did their homework and I reckon did not rely on government figures but their own cents per kWh and miles per kWh.

 

Can I ask if you actually watched the video or are just guessing at its content? 

What is the nonsense today about the colour of cars and people choosing the colour green to show they are being green about motoring?

 

There is figures from the SMMT about First Registrations, the number of EV First registrations and more Green cars.

I wonder if they are including Electrified, so PHEVs, maybe Ford Puma.

 

No idea what Green EV,s people are getting. 

Vauzhall Mokka electrics i see some of, can anyone think of other GREEN EV,s they have spotted?

 

EDIT, Doh, i forgot, Green MINI,s (including electrics.)

Edited 20 January, 20242 yr by Rooted

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Can I ask if you actually watched the video or are just guessing at its content? 

 

The first minute was trash, talked tosh, headline on the video an incorrect statement so, as is my policy, if the Youtuber talks crap for that fist minute I bail out so I hope they did not get any Youtube financial kickback fo producing such rubbish.

 

In that fist minute she accused the US government of producing misleading figures about costs to charge against cost of buying fossil fuel.  Since, as we have said multiple times, most people charge manly at home or use AC charging at destinations as a much cheaper, or free access to charging, then to compare to the premium prices of in journey DC charging then this is not a valid comparison to the actual cost of running an EV.

 

If the presenter suddenly changed from her trash talking in the first minute of her video please let me have those points as I could not bear listening to the tosh she stated to spout ?     

Really this 'Most people' nonsense needs to get some fact behind it.  Even if more than half of people do charge at home.

 

The UK figures for Drive Ways or Off road parking are very possibly rubbish or might be the percentage of those with an EV who have a driveway or off road parking. 

 

Those that are just running around the area of their home chargers and charging just there is fair enough, but really there are many many EV,s being charged away from the Home Address or the Work Address and that can be on AC or DC and the cost is now getting to be more than Petrol or Diesel costs for private drivers. 

Some public EV charging is double the cost per mile of running a similar size ICE vehicle to the EV. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 January, 20242 yr by Rooted

@lol-lolOh dear, once again preconception strikes.I would not post such a video if it was all about mpg or m/kwh and the costs, because she was not talking about the UK so not even compatible and as you say, anyone with a brain can work that out charging at home is if you can do it, a no-brainer, hell, if I could sensibly charge at home and my car usage was compatible, even I'd be looking at an EV and doing it myself. Never mind, I can't be bothered with it now, I have other things to get on with now.

 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lolOh dear, once again preconception strikes.I would not post such a video if it was all about mpg or m/kwh and the costs, because she was not talking about the UK so not even compatible and as you say, anyone with a brain can work that out charging at home is if you can do it, a no-brainer, hell, if I could sensibly charge at home and my car usage was compatible, even I'd be looking at an EV and doing it myself. Never mind, I can't be bothered with it now, I have other things to get on with now.

 

Ah don't be like that.  A couple areas that I reckon is getting attention is big improvements at public sites which people do not and cannot have home chargers will increasingly get access to and at a much lower price that the expensive DC charging (TESLA are much cheaper but one then needs the £11 subscription and be close to V4 TESLA chargers that can work with non TESLAs as most of use EV drivers drive.

 

The decision by Sainsburys to put in charger at all 1400 stores will help and I have now found I can access a whole bunch of AC chargers with the Dragon charging, as well as the Mer and several other EV charging networks, all under and seems to be ever increase under Octopus Energy Electroverse RFID network with all its advantages of discounts and not charging the cost immediately but just adding it on to the household energy bill and as EVangelists know AC is usually much cheaper cost per unit of electricity ie usually about 50p per kWh instead of 70 to 80p per kWh as it is for DC charging.  For us Renault Zoe and van drivers we can find quite a few 22 kW AC charging places so we are adding about 12 to 18 miles of range in ten minutes and warming the battery to make it more efficient in cold weather.  Good for a splash and dash and add a margin of safety to range worries.  Still a few places only charging 28 p per kWh which is basically cheaper than charging at home for most.  

 

Where there is a will there is a way.

 

Talking about the figures and comments that must people seem to rely on as being factual, it is always useful and far more meaningful to try to establish an idea on the size of the consultation sample that these so-called journalists and politicians are using as facts, in other words fact check them as this YouTuber did. 

 

I already what some think of this particular person, but please bear with it and watch his videos, the first of which where he calls BS on the newspaper article and the 2nd where he digs into it and challenges the journalist to provide the evidence, which he does, and it just proves the article is pure BS and yet the government have been using these publications to spread BS for years, and by way of proof, look at the massive job losses in Tata Steel being announced, and yet they were all claiming the only way to save our steel works was leave the EU, which we did, but it didn't save our steel.

 

Anybody telling the truth, were almost smothered by the constant wave of BS being published.

 

All the supporting documents are also presented below (these have already been posted on the forum in a different section, but I present them again here, making no apology, as this time, I'm using them as an example of the need to look beyond the headlines etc and do some fact checking before coming to a decision. 

 

Motorists DESPERATE for PAY PER MILE say Newspaper. BALLS! Says Geoff. (youtube.com)

 

(78) Angry Motorists want Road Charging. WE GOT A REPLY! - YouTube

 

https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/...

https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/...

https://bettertransport.org.uk/wp-con...

https://committees.parliament.uk/work...

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/defau...

https://committees.parliament.uk/work...

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/...

15 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Ah don't be like that.  A couple areas that I reckon is getting attention is big improvements at public sites which people do not and cannot have home chargers will increasingly get access to and at a much lower price that the expensive DC charging (TESLA are much cheaper but one then needs the £11 subscription and be close to V4 TESLA chargers that can work with non TESLAs as most of use EV drivers drive.

 

The decision by Sainsburys to put in charger at all 1400 stores will help and I have now found I can access a whole bunch of AC chargers with the Dragon charging, as well as the Mer and several other EV charging networks, all under and seems to be ever increase under Octopus Energy Electroverse RFID network with all its advantages of discounts and not charging the cost immediately but just adding it on to the household energy bill and as EVangelists know AC is usually much cheaper cost per unit of electricity ie usually about 50p per kWh instead of 70 to 80p per kWh as it is for DC charging.  For us Renault Zoe and van drivers we can find quite a few 22 kW AC charging places so we are adding about 12 to 18 miles of range in ten minutes and warming the battery to make it more efficient in cold weather.  Good for a splash and dash and add a margin of safety to range worries.  Still a few places only charging 28 p per kWh which is basically cheaper than charging at home for most.  

 

Where there is a will there is a way.

 

No I'm not, I was serious, I did have things to do and what is the point of explaining anything if you have already decided that the rest of the video is rubbish.  Remember they are talking about the US and you're already drawing parallels with the UK and how people are charging their cars, when in truth, that has almost nothing to do with what the video is about, it is about government and manufacturers corruption and how the consumer ultimately pays the price.

 

Having blinkers on is no way to learn.

18 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

No I'm not, I was serious, I did have things to do and what is the point of explaining anything if you have already decided that the rest of the video is rubbish.  Remember they are talking about the US and you're already drawing parallels with the UK and how people are charging their cars, when in truth, that has almost nothing to do with what the video is about, it is about government and manufacturers corruption and how the consumer ultimately pays the price.

 

Having blinkers on is no way to learn.

 

You are confirming it is rabid Republican bull, Donald Trump propaganda.

 

USA has 50 states, different subsidies, different state taxes, vastly different seasonal weather too.

The economics of ICE cars and EV changes weekly as fuel prices and charging prices swing around but what millions of Americans have found out, and millions of others round the world is that you can charge your EV oft for free of you own solar or at sites like work or clients also for free. EV Charging at expensive DC on route places is more expensive than ICE vehicles most places so do not do it or do as little as possible.

 

What I am surprised at is the lack of public complaints at the hyper massive subsidies to EV drivers as grants and tax breaks like UK salary sacrifice.  People on 100k or more pay packets getting massive handouts whilst infrastructure, health etc is past the point of being fit for purpose. Not so much stats which don't apply to most users.

 

Edited 20 January, 20242 yr by lol-lol

8 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

You are confirming it is rabid Republican bull, Donald Trump propaganda.

 

USA has 50 states, different subsidies, different state taxes, vastly different seasonal weather too.

The economics of ICE cars and EV changes weekly as fuel prices and charging prices swing around but what millions of Americans have found out, and millions of others round the world is that you can charge your EV oft for free of you own solar or at sites like work or clients also for free. EV Charging at expensive DC on route places is more expensive than ICE vehicles most places so do not do it or do as little as possible.

 

What I am surprised at is the lack of public complaints at the hyper massive subsidies to EV drivers as grants and tax breaks like UK salary sacrifice.  People on 100k or more pay packets getting massive handouts whilst infrastructure, health etc is past the point of being fit for purpose. Not so much stats which don't apply to most users.

 

Err, no, not as far as I know its not? I thought that Musk was a Trump champion and Biden does not like Musk??

 

Have you watched the video, or is that still a no? My understanding of the video was that it was all about the massive corruption going on with Carbon Credits, and that is nothing to do with charging methods/patterns/networks, has it?

Edited 20 January, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

7 hours ago, Rooted said:

What is the nonsense today about the colour of cars and people choosing the colour green to show they are being green about motoring?

 

There is figures from the SMMT about First Registrations, the number of EV First registrations and more Green cars.

I wonder if they are including Electrified, so PHEVs, maybe Ford Puma.

 

No idea what Green EV,s people are getting. 

Vauzhall Mokka electrics i see some of, can anyone think of other GREEN EV,s they have spotted?

 

EDIT, Doh, i forgot, Green MINI,s (including electrics.)

Interesting data. silver is my preferred car colour, wouldn't get dirty too quickly and looks great in all UK weather.

 

I would not hesitate with the Quicksilver colour, saw one on German motorway last year, it looked great. Unfortunately UK only gets boring grey.

https://insideevs.com/news/627669/tesla-model-y-quicksilver-photos/

 

Much as I dislike silver or grey cars, I have to admit that quicksilver on the Tesla looks great, I think it suits the curvy shell.

Edited 20 January, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

11 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Err, no, not as far as I know its not? I thought that Musk was a Trump champion and Biden does not like Musk??

 

Have you watched the video, or is that still a no? My understanding of the video was that it was all about the massive corruption going on with Carbon Credits, and that is nothing to do with charging methods/patterns/networks, has it?

 

Got thru the video.  She seems to blame the US government for the US carbon credit scheme but sort of acknowledges it was to help the transition from carbon burning cars to EVs.  What she fails to acknowledge but seems to imply that TESLA is doing something wrong, if not illegal then immoral.  TESLA just make good electric cars, Chrysler-Stellantis, Ford and GM by and largely have failed as car designers, engineers and production companies to make EVs anywhere where as cheap and efficiently as TESLA.  TELSA have benefitted from the fact they only produce EVs where as the big 3 US manufacturers have failed to get their EV sales as more than a percent or so of their overall manufacture.  So those three US car companies have to buy carbon credits and TESLA can sell them.  Worth $2B a year to TESLA which they can and do plough in to their cars to make them even cheaper and hence more US buyers buy then even more widening the sales gulf between them and TESLA.

 

Not TESLA fault at all, US government may need to recognise it is a feedback loop of money which continues to help TESLA and harm the big 3 US car makers.  In US election year one can see the scheme being reduced or scrapped.  TESLA hardly need the scheme and the 3 big US car makers are probably toast as they just have not the innovative skills to survive in the car world where EVs are the obvious choice for buyers and TESLA and the Chinese have got the building of these cars and most the legacy car makers have not.  

 

She still sounds like someone in a tirade, blaming the government rather than lamenting legacy automakers failure to adapt from ICE car manufacture to EV manufacture.  The carbon credit scheme is just another nail in the legacy car makers coffin.  TESLA get £2B a year from this, US legacy car makers have to cough up a few hundred million $ for carbon credit but this is one a fraction of billions of pounds per year these legacy companies are losing.TESLA can do without Carbon Credits. Its worth is currently about $600B, sells $70B worth of cars per year.  Battery costs, the main component cost, has more than halved last year so $2B is an element they can live without in 2024 and beyond.

 

Carbon capture scheme a few billion $, US government is $34,000B in national debt and in an election year both parties will try and look more prudent especially with the ever hanging threat of government popping up almost every month.  Think it is going to be close so we might have Donald Trump back again.  Issues are complex and videos that mention so many issues, she even got cold-gating in to her 7 minute diatribe tirade, which was a mostly a charger issue rather than a EV issue BTW, so still see the vid as a rant which was all over the place in focus, or lack of it.  More and more Americans, as with much of the world, will continue to adopt EVs due to ever lowering cost to buy and carbon capture and EV subsidies are so last year, scrap both of them, not needed any more, transition to EV is a freight train, an electric one and does not need hand outs any more as it is mainstream and can both stand and EVolve on its own now.   

 

Edited 21 January, 20242 yr by lol-lol

On 19/01/2024 at 08:47, wyx087 said:

Interesting the car relying on heat pump (blue Tesla MY) warms up slower than resistive heater (red Nissan Leaf). Probably used less energy though, hard to measure. 
 

Wife school run, I came home late last night due to work, so had to move my car this morning. Pressed pre-condition button at same time. 
 

Leaf had a minute delay in starting due to slower (hopeless terrible) Nissan servers. Leaf pre-heating will only use PTC resistive heater. Tesla with heat pumps will only use heat pump. It was evident when I came out and hearing the compressor under the bonnet for blue car but not the red one.  -5c outside today. 

Leaf’s bonnet rarely iced up this year. Probably due to V2H keeping the car electronics awake. 

 

Isn't the leaf in a more sheltered position than the tesla so windchill will have been less?

@lol-lolThank you watching the video and your detailed anaylisis of the content, it was carbon credits where the meat was. The first part that you originally watched has been done to death, but the thumbnail kind of, to me at least, gave a clue that there was much more to this then the charging, especially as it has always been portrayed as the US had far superior charging network and it seems a lot more homes with drives. 

Companies being able to sell their unused carbon allowance to other companies who want to offset their emissions makes a nonsense of the urgency of reducing carbon emissions

Cars are not living things with flesh, so really they get as cold as the Air Temperature.

Cold might bring the heat down quick but the car is not like Humans or Animals so that Temperature plus wind speed does not have it 'Feels like;.

But then there are exposed places and sheltered places, out of the wind, or in the sun or in the shade but the temperature is air or ground temp. 

 

 

Edited 21 January, 20242 yr by Rooted

13 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Interesting data. silver is my preferred car colour, wouldn't get dirty too quickly and looks great in all UK weather.

 

Mine too, I am stuck with Gendarmerie Blue on this my hopefully final vehicle, looks dirty all the time, no surprise as its never washed but the silver predecessors always looked good with 18 months of grime on them.

 

I am surprised about black and white being the 2nd and 3rd "most chosen" colours, surely they would be at the bottom of most peoples list, I suspect those colours are chosen by the financially driven lease companies & PCP selling dealers who probably order the majority of the new vehicles or buyers not wanting to wait longer for delivery.

 

I wonder what tiny percenteage of new car sales are from buyers who have specified the colour that they want rather than accepting what is offered and being willing to pay the premium and wait for its production?

 

In France it would be a fraction of one percent, if you went into any dealer and said I want to buy a new Turdmobile they would say you can have this one here or that one there, if you said no I want mine in such and such a colour they would just laugh at you like if you asked for a vegetarian meal in a resto or a coffee or non alcoholic drink in a bar.

Edited 21 January, 20242 yr by J.R.

23 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

I am surprised about black and white being the 2nd and 3rd "most chosen" colours, surely they would be at the bottom of most peoples list

 

 

You may be surprised on that one...   Many people who change cars regularly such as those on a PCP will be the type of people who are also likely to be influenced by 'trend' and black and white have been 'on trend' for a few years now which has probably influenced car colour choice recently too. 

 

Personally I don't like white cars...   Black is slightly better but not much. 

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

Companies being able to sell their unused carbon allowance to other companies who want to offset their emissions makes a nonsense of the urgency of reducing carbon emissions

That was also my initial thoughts, but I don't fully understand the scheme or see what the point of it all is.

 

I have this little niggling voice in my head telling me that it is all a part of a bigger scam lead by big energy/corporations who have been lobbying governments to push the go electric theme and to stop burning all fossil fuels and the carbon angle just seems like a convenient lever to pull towards the goal.

 

The goal might be more financial focused than we would like to admit, after all if they get us all into electric cars, ban gas and coal from being burnt, diesel and petrol are already on the skids, so what is left (currently) is electric, upon which we would be wholly dependant and then with the power generation being in private hands, the prices are free to rise, and we are all stuffed as there is no alternative.

 

Also, a foreign power can also bring another country to its knees quickly, think about the Russian v Ukraine conflict, if both countries only had electric for power for everything, then the first to knock out all generation capability would be the victor. 

 

Now that might just be a conspiracy theory and require the wearing of a tin foil hat, but if it wasn't.🤔

Edited 21 January, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

4 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Isn't the leaf in a more sheltered position than the tesla so windchill will have been less?

There is some merit in what you say, however, it might not be wind chill factor so but more of a radiated heat from the house factor?

Edited 21 January, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

There is some merit in what you say, however, it might not be wind chill factor so but more of a radiated heat from the house factor?

 

I can only go off what i see driving around housing estates between 6:00 and 8:00 in the winter.

 

Cars on drives next to a house, in front of houses and parked on the street.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

I can only go off what i see driving around housing estates between 6:00 and 8:00 in the winter.

 

Cars on drives next to a house, in front of houses and parked on the street.

 

 

Exactly, I see the same thing and sometimes the car parked next to the property doesn't move for a couple of days and so is getting colder but often seems less icy than the one parked on the road which has been driven during the day. Grass lawns also reflect this pattern, the closer to the footpath, the more dense the frost seems to be.

The car never gets colder than the air temperature, but it might well get ice and frost on it and that is frozen water. 

 

There are puddles and the ground that puddles are on still frozen this morning and there are puddles not frozen. 

4 Degrees C air temp. 

 

 

Edited 21 January, 20242 yr by Rooted