5 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Yes a bit of a faff or just remember the rules not to charge between 1600 and 1900, cost in my area is and eye water 38.34 p per KWh, so that would drop to 36.51 so nearly 2 p a KWH cheaper.If one can be faffed and at least set up a program to start the charge at 2200 hours when the electricity is currently 12.54 which will drop to 11.94 p per KWh when the VAT comes off in 70 days times. The bits between 1900 and 2200 and 0000 and 0400 are at 25.56 p per KWh so the fairly normal rate for most people.

Wow, I don't have any fixed tarrif and my cost per KWH is 23.75p.

Edited 22 July22 Jul by Graham Butcher

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Wow, I don't have any fixed tarrif and my cost per KWH is 23.75p.

Sounds a good rate for lecky, hopefully not go too much in October and the VAT reduction keep it not a shock.

Do you have gas as that is the killer one coming down the track ie looks like going up a fifth or even a quarter for most people who have not fixed and just hitting when we start using gas in meaningful amounts. Would be bad for next year to it is looking like.

Trumps 4 to 6 week war is looking like not that, or 4 to 6 months rate its going but more like 4 to 6 years with the damage being done to Middle East oil and gas facilities.

500 page thread, wowzer!😮

And I'm still no closer to moving off the fence.

Gaz

24 minutes ago, Gaz said:

500 page thread, wowzer!😮

And I'm still no closer to moving off the fence.

Gaz

Please keep buying hydrocarbon fuel as the tax is needed provably more than ever.

52.95 p excise duty per litre and then VAT at 20% on the price of the fuel and VAT on the Excise duty.

The tax receipts have slipped from £25B a year and is heading down towards only £20B a year so we need ICE drivers to keep buying the black gold to keep the taxes rolling in.

Your support is appreciated and please gear up for that 5p a litre coming back on next year.

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

Please keep buying hydrocarbon fuel as the tax is needed provably more than ever.

52.95 p excise duty per litre and then VAT at 20% on the price of the fuel and VAT on the Excise duty.

The tax receipts have slipped from £25B a year and is heading down towards only £20B a year so we need ICE drivers to keep buying the black gold to keep the taxes rolling in.

Your support is appreciated and please gear up for that 5p a litre coming back on next year.

Thanks for the figures; I'm quite happy to keep on paying that taxation to keep the services that are reliant on that £25B pot of money being there to continue to operate.

But, seriously, it does actually make us ICE drivers/owners wonder. What if there were no actual financial advantages in owning an electric car? If they cost the same as the ICE equivalent to buy, insure, tax, and fuel and operate. They provided the same power output, miles per battery full. In other words, the EVs matched the overall costs and performance exactly as an ICE car. Charging at home was banned, so you had no option but to go to a charging hub, just as ICE cars have to go to a filling station.

Just how many there would be on the roads when the above have been negated and there was no instant torque available and thus no instant acceleration to be the first to pull away and get to the next set of traffic lights, etc. All the other advantages of being able to preheat the cabin on a cold day and defrost the windows, etc., were taken away. The only current characteristic that EVs would be able to carry over is the actual charging time; that is to say, it would be available from a 100 kW charger that would necessitate spending approx. 1 hour each time to recharge the battery as opposed to the 5 minutes for an ICE car to refill its fuel tank.

Then it really would be purely down to personal choice; I would expect the number of them on the road would drop dramaticly and make them a rare sight indeed.

One thing you can be certain of is as the number of EVs on the road increases as a result of government policies and the revenue from ICE cars drops, the government is going to make sure that the shortfall is going to be forced onto the shoulders of EV owners/drivers to replace.

Edited 22 July22 Jul by Graham Butcher

@lol-lol yes, I have gas central heating and gas hob. I also worked from home and my energy bills were well under £200 a month in winter and around the £100 a month during summer and is for a large 4 bed house semi with a garage attached at either end of the house. Based on that, I would certainly say that your brothers £400 a month is excessive. My research shows that heat pumps are not as good as they claim to be.

19 hours ago, lol-lol said:

52.95 p excise duty

The only tax to have gone down in real terms?

It should be 86p a litre now if it had kept pace with inflation

7 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol yes, I have gas central heating and gas hob. I also worked from home and my energy bills were well under £200 a month in winter and around the £100 a month during summer and is for a large 4 bed house semi with a garage attached at either end of the house. Based on that, I would certainly say that your brothers £400 a month is excessive. My research shows that heat pumps are not as good as they claim to be.

Bro house very big. My living-dining room is about 30 square meters floor space, I reckon his is twice that size.

As I said charging, even on a granny charger. 32 KWh battery being charged up most nights, say 16 KWh, could be a cost of £5 a day compared to my £4 or less to put in usually about 25 KWh. Mounts up. Plus occupants who don't adhere to the cheap charging time for house hold stuff. So he will benefit big time from the VAT reduction using maybe 4 times the electricity of what many use in winter, with me it is probably closer to double what the average user uses due to my 3 EVs.

Heat pump tech is moving quite rapidly as with most tech in this sector. The size of the hot water storage has gone from massive tanks to ones much much smaller which no require little space for the heat pump system. Personally would go the whole hog and supply the system from batteries which dropload cheap or free electricity and supply the heat pump system as needed. Use one of the EVs as that battery as one of them are sat on the drive most the time.

Still find the idea of efficiency of over 400% hard to get my head around and I have been a Thermodynamics (TD) student since the late 70s and did more TD in my Science Degree in the 1990s.

4 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

The only tax to have gone down in real terms? It should be 86p a litre now if it had kept pace with inflation

And there is VAT on the Excise duty so it would be £1.03 for the taxes on diesel and petrol as well the VAT on the other element, fuel value and the oil company's profit which seem to have about doubled since Israel and Trump started this war on Feb 28th this year.

Electricity price predicted to go to zero tomorrow afternoon for a while so EV charging on agendas. Predicted by Agile Predict who seem to be quite accurate, could actually go negative or be 2 or 3 p per KWh is the tolerance.

In other news Plug in solar expected to ve made legal in UK on August 27th.

2000 w panel setups, couple of micro invertor and a limit of 800 w in to two house ring mains. Any excess from the household will go into the grid with no payment to generator but the electrhcity company can sell it on. Good idea to get a shoebox battery to save the excess for ones personnal consumption IMO.

53 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

In other news Plug in solar expected to ve made legal in UK on August 27th.

Not trying to be a killjoy here, but from a purely professional point of view, I really hope that this system, in its current form, fails to get the green light. Logic alone must surely be shouting out and clear that having a potentially live supply with exposed live connections, which in this case is a standard 13A plugtop, is a recipe for disaster.

28 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Not trying to be a killjoy here, but from a purely professional point of view, I really hope that this system, in its current form, fails to get the green light. Logic alone must surely be shouting out and clear that having a potentially live supply with exposed live connections, which in this case is a standard 13A plugtop, is a recipe for disaster.

Already been tested an the Uk plug, as expected by many of us, performed better than Euro plugs. Also the island isolation of the micro inverters seemed to cut off within the few microseconds stipulated.

All that said the power from each spur of the solar system will be limited to 800 w, or just over 3a, and a limit via two spurs in to two seperate ring mains for the systems per household.

28 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Already been tested an the Uk plug, as expected by many of us, performed better than Euro plugs. Also the island isolation of the micro inverters seemed to cut off within the few microseconds stipulated.

All that said the power from each spur of the solar system will be limited to 800 w, or just over 3a, and a limit via two spurs in to two seperate ring mains for the systems per household.

Yeah, I know that it has been tested with the UK 13A plug; I posted the video of it being tested by that eFIXX channel.

On that test, the inverter shut down, and so the exposed pins were dead. Why did it happen? It happened because the system requires the mains supply to be present to activate the inverter. This was done by electronics watching for the telltale signal of the grid being almost spot on 50 Hz, as opposed to the inverter being very slightly unstable in its frequency and not consistent. enough to fool the detector circuit into keeping the inverter running.

Failure of the critical detector circuit could happen and, in turn, keep the inverter running as long as the solar panel was producing enough power to allow it to happen. That means that should there be enough actual light hitting the panels, then the plug pins could, under that situation, have 230V still connected to them, even if the plug were withdrawn from the 13A socket. That is the problem.

We all know that a diesel engine does not require electrical power to keep the engine running. Whereas a petrol engine requires electricity to power the ignition system and keep the spark plugs firing in order to keep the engine running. Well, it is possible to actually start the engine and then disconnect the battery and replace it without the engine stopping, because the dynamo or the alternator is producing power and will keep the ignition system energised. The video below demonstrates this being done.

Yes, I know that the panels will only produce a small power of 800W or 3A and a limit of 2 panels per ring circuit, etc., but the low power does not mean that should the safety circuit fail, the person or animal touching those exposed pins would not be electrocuted.

We all know that electronics can and do often fail; TVs, etc., fail often and force us to either try and get them repaired or toss them in the bin and buy a new one.

How many people will have to be killed or, at the very best, receive a shock before these will be banned?

There is a reason why the IEEE and the IET and also the BSI and the whole electrical trade (electrical contractors) are fighting the government forcing these onto the UK market; it is purely on the grounds of safety. They are NOT tin foil hat brigades; there is NO conspiracy here, only facts.

Edited 23 July23 Jul by Graham Butcher

11 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yeah, I know that it has been tested with the UK 13A plug; I posted the video of it being tested by that eFIXX channel.

On that test, the inverter shut down, and so the exposed pins were dead. Why did it happen? It happened because the system requires the mains supply to be present to activate the inverter. This was done by electronics watching for the telltale signal of the grid being almost spot on 50 Hz, as opposed to the inverter being very slightly unstable in its frequency and not consistent. enough to fool the detector circuit into keeping the inverter running.

Failure of the critical detector circuit could happen and, in turn, keep the inverter running as long as the solar panel was producing enough power to allow it to happen. That means that should there be enough actual light hitting the panels, then the plug pins could, under that situation, have 230V still connected to them, even if the plug were withdrawn from the 13A socket. That is the problem.

We all know that a diesel engine does not require electrical power to keep the engine running. Whereas a petrol engine requires electricity to power the ignition system and keep the spark plugs firing in order to keep the engine running. Well, it is possible to actually start the engine and then disconnect the battery and replace it without the engine stopping, because the dynamo or the alternator is producing power and will keep the ignition system energised. The video below demonstrates this being done.

Yes, I know that the panels will only produce a small power of 800W or 3A and a limit of 2 panels per ring circuit, etc., but the low power does not mean that should the safety circuit fail, the person or animal touching those exposed pins would not be electrocuted.

We all know that electronics can and do often fail; TVs, etc., fail often and force us to either try and get them repaired or toss them in the bin and buy a new one.

How many people will have to be killed or, at the very best, receive a shock before these will be banned?

There is a reason why the IEEE and the IET and also the BSI and the whole electrical trade (electrical contractors) are fighting the government forcing these onto the UK market; it is purely on the grounds of safety. They are NOT tin foil hat brigades; there is NO conspiracy here, only facts.

I think there is a lot of protectionism by electricians going on here. Trying to get us to believe that electricity in any form, especially new tech, is a dangerous magic which only they can implement. While point of balcony / plug in solar is that it piggy backs on to existing electrical tech that solar components have and our excellent 3 pin plug safety.

What is worse is that the current instructions and testing probably misses out the real dangers.

People will setup the panel (s) and plug in the micro inverter and then plug into their 3 pin socket but place the micro inverter in a hot place ie just behind a balcony or patio window where it gets 40 or 50c in the summer. It will then fail as it gets too hot.

Government and power companies like the sound of plug in solar as it feeds excess power back in to the Grid which the piwer companies can sell and this could help overall prices, if companies act fairly like Octopus do and reduce the chance of blackouts and brown outs.

@lol-lol I think you're mistaking real concern for safety as something else. Isn't the system reccomended to be installed by a qualified electrical engineer? So how can you interpret that as protectionism?

The other points you raise about location of the micro controller / inverter are perfectly valid.

All that is required to make the system perfectly safe in the event of a failure of the shut down system is specially designed plug and socket interface to be installed in each house and on each kit. Designed in such a way that if the balcony kit is unplugged, the connection pins are still fully shrouded to prevent accidental contact being made. The fixed portion of the interconnection system just needs to be similary protected and then I think you may be surprised by the removal of the safety concerns.

Not everything is as anti as you seem to think it is. Just because the Germans already use it, does not invalidate the opposition to it from the experts in the UK electrical industry.

Think back to when Volvo invented the seat belt, was that protectionism or was it a genuine concern over safety??

The Swedes never tried to capitalise from that invention, they gave it away free to others and that is what will happen with balcony system once tge safety concerns have been resolved.

Edited 24 July24 Jul by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

I think there is a lot of protectionism by electricians going on here. Trying to get us to believe that electricity in any form, especially new tech, is a dangerous magic which only they can implement.

I actually don't think that's correct - it's more a case of catering and protecting the lowest common denominator - namely kids or those eligible for Darwin Awards that would pull the plug and stick their tongue on it to see if it was working (and lets face it there are A LOT of those sorts of idiots around.

51 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

All that is required to make the system perfectly safe in the event of a failure of the shut down system is specially designed plug and socket interface to be installed in each house and on each kit. Designed in such a way that if the balcony kit is unplugged, the connection pins are still fully shrouded to prevent accidental contact being made. The fixed portion of the interconnection system just needs to be similary protected and then I think you may be surprised by the removal of the safety concerns.

And this ^^ is the solution to the aforementioned issue - it's easy to do by simple replacement of an existing 3-pin outlet with a bespoke socket on each ring main and a corresponding shielded and fused plug on the inverter - just as we have on EVs. Cost would be minimal, as per the cost of a replacement 3-pin outlet (a couple of quid these days), and it resolves the issues of potential electrocution in the event of the plug being removed with the inverter still 'live'. I really don't see what the issue is and why this cannot be incorporated into any legislation that comes forward allowing plug in solar to be made legal - it's not rocket science just common sense (but then a lot of politicians and others wanting it allowed clearly don't have that!).

Edited 24 July24 Jul by skomaz

Has the world gone completely crazy in the big push for net zero?

It would appear that the UK government has now given the green light for the proposed plug-in solar system as of the 27th of August 2026. using a factory-installed and connected 13A BS1363 plugtop but still subject to certain stipulations. A maximum of 800W power out from the inverter must be supplied as an approved kit.

You cannot assemble your own kit of parts, i.e., source your own solar panels and a microinverter and connect them together. You also cannot use storage batteries and currently only a single kit per household.

So it seems the whole system has been rushed through after just a 2-week consultation period.

Unless there is a serious strong backlash from the electrical industry, it will now be a matter of sitting back and waiting for the first failure of the system, and it will happen.

Excellent.

I will probably buy 1 or 2 systems, maybe wait for the Black Friday, Cyber Monday events.

Trick will be to use all the power generated yourself ie the up to 800w, though have seen some systens exceeding this a bit, might be the 3.5a rather than 800w being the real limit.

The alternative is to just export for free butvthen one is just giving sellable power to the electricity companies who will then sell it for profit.

Shane was not available at start of summer rather than end of summer.

Batteries are as much a money saver as solar and the two work well together and shame legislation does not include this combo.

I have four solar feeds but they are not certified as matched plug in solar components so should not be used as plug in solar. Wonder how nany people will plug in non matched approved items but they could get found out if there is some power go back into the Grid on a non G98 approved house.

Of course some could take the other route and not do plug in solar and just do batteries. Tomorrow, like many weekend days, the price of electricity is negative on TOU tariff like Octopus Agile. A part from charging the EVs I will charge up my shoebox, some more like boot boxes size, that will charge from the mains Grid. At 1600 energy heavy devices like the fridge freezer will go from using negative priced electricity for the previous 10 hours to using the battery stored electricity until the next cheap, zero or negative priced electricity spell. This option may get more users than plug in solar and some may do both.

Edited 24 July24 Jul by lol-lol

Well 800w and 3.5a are virtually the same thing anyway. Using 230V as a norm, 230 x 3.5 = 805W and as things stand currently, you are only allowed 1 system per house.

45 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well 800w and 3.5a are virtually the same thing anyway. Using 230V as a norm, 230 x 3.5 = 805W and as things stand currently, you are only allowed 1 system per house.

Saw one system putting in a bit over 810w. One can fave up to 2000w of panels but the system should clip it down to the nominal 800w. Big panels to deal with Spring and Autumn weaker sun. Think it will be next Spring before we see thd big adoption. Batteries ars better for the when Sol hax popped South of the Equator.

My small electrical devices load is only about 50w as big devices fed by batteries which have been charged up by solar to cheap lecky.

Occasional power draw from the Ring main will be kettle, microwave, oven etc and the balcony plug in solar coukd cover all thd low power device consumption plus part of these heavy weight items but I suspect the overall saving over the ring main will be quite small.

Working extending my DC circuit in the house. Less harmonised than AC, sone devices work on 5v, some 12v, some 48v. Bought my first DV step down device. For one of the blockd of solar panel in series so I can feed in one of the MPPT solar controllers. All good fun though i can see i am going to need biuld my only casings with fans to keep save from little one's fingers. Will run it past my qualified electrician son in law for isolation testing etc.

Saw this but not yet read it. Could be BS but maybe not 🤷

https://www.engadget.com/2219664/uk-will-legalize-plug-in-solar-on-august-27/?

16 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

Saw this but not yet read it. Could be BS but maybe not 🤷

https://www.engadget.com/2219664/uk-will-legalize-plug-in-solar-on-august-27/?

It's true.

I will probably get a plug in. Solar just to chargethose low powered devices on the ring main.

But I will put in a diverted switch to send the power to a battery when harvesting is high say over 300w and main power us cheap, zero or free like we have on several days a month witb Octopus Agile.

Only just heard that excess power sent in to the house Ribg main and back in to Grid is normt credit to you put energy company may sell on and make a big profit margin on.

Batteries are every bit as key as solar panels but even more so for late Autumn, Winter and early Spring ahead.

30 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

Saw this but not yet read it. Could be BS but maybe not 🤷

https://www.engadget.com/2219664/uk-will-legalize-plug-in-solar-on-august-27/?

No, its not BS, it's 100% true unless something happens to derail it.

The system apparently relies heavily on software and electronics which detects the steady frequency of grid-supplied power to keep the mini inverter operational. I and the rest of the UK electrical industry fear that it is a matter of time before that system will fail with someone potentially being electrocuted.

Its a shame that someone did not design a dedicated interface that does not use a 13A plug top with its always-exposed pins, which would completely remove its current weak link. But I fear that once again, people with little real knowledge are making knee-jerk decisions in order to keep their political goals on course.

In the meantime all we can do is keep our fingers crossed that the feared event never actually happens.

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I and the rest of the UK electrical industry fear that it is a matter of time before that system will fail with someone potentially being electrocuted.

In the meantime all we can do is keep our fingers crossed that the feared event never actually happens.

Did you speak to them all?

Gosh, yes. We wouldn't want to be an alarmist nay sayer would we.