BT Digital Phone Line Switchover

[VWD]

From a dim and distant memory ( I served an apprentic ship with GPO) ,it was a recommendation to user that the line was live and that they should start to dial ,that dial tone was provided. Easily done in the days of copper, where handset loop could be detected by exchange, but with digital, unless there's handset loop sensing inside the router line circuit to signal to the exchange that a line has been siezed. In old manual and auto systems, lifting the handset triggered circuitry to tell the exchange that a call was required and dial tone was returned to the user. ( Similar to the old idea of an operator saying "number please"). However thinking a it longer, there must be handset detection, else the exchange would not detect a user lifting the handset to answer a call.

However, something that is not told to users is that by using the socket on the router, it should be ( in theory ,using a line jack) to plug any existing house wiring into the router. But I have yet to find out if the router socket is a master or slave as most phones derive ringing from a capacitor in the master socket.

[skomaz]

17 minutes ago, VWD said:

 

However, something that is not told to users is that by using the socket on the router, it should be ( in theory ,using a line jack) to plug any existing house wiring into the router. But I have yet to find out if the router socket is a master or slave as most phones derive ringing from a capacitor in the master socket.

 

 

This has worked for my MIL as we plugged the router into an extension socket and then the main phone base station into a socket elsewhere in the house and all works fine. 

[VWD]

By extension socket, do you mean a slave ( where there s no capacitor between pins 2 & 5 ), or a master, where there is a capacitor to seperate ringing from the 2wire line ?

[Rizmod]

I plugged an old PSTN handset into the router and that produced a dial tone.  When I tried it with the DECT base station, there was no dial tone.  Having said that, the DECT phones still work fine.

 

There are some FAQs at: https://www.bt.com/help/landline/digital-voice-phones

This is for the Digital Voice Adapter: https://www.bt.com/content/dam/bt/help/user-guides/Digital-Voice-Adapter-userguide.pdf

 

Also, I did get the old DECT answer machine to work.  BT had automatically activated their digital voicemail without asking.  By dialing 1571, via the menu I was able to increase the  BT digital voicemail delay from MEDIUM to LONG.  I then changed my own answer machine delay to 10 seconds, so it now cuts in before the BT voicemail. Sorted!

[skomaz]

7 hours ago, VWD said:

By extension socket, do you mean a slave ( where there s no capacitor between pins 2 & 5 ), or a master, where there is a capacitor to seperate ringing from the 2wire line ?

 

I would need to check but yes, it was effectively a slave as thinking about it we used a doubler so we could connect two male plugs together...   One from the router socket and one from the rest of the house that used to be plugged into the master socket to provide extensions to other rooms. 

[VWD]

scomaz- from reply I'd suggest that socket on router sends out line to pins 2 & 5 and ringing on pin 3. So to connect any house wiring to a new router, I'd try connecting existing house wiring as extensions to line pins 2 & 5 and ringer on pin 3, and if problems with phones ringing, bell tickle, reverse wiring into master socket on pins 2 & 5.

There is a convention for wire connections to socket , but I'm a rebel and stick to my trusted formula of "colours high" . ( Modern ( internal cables, not as Lee would find UG cable codes, as we learned as apprentices) telecomms cables come with 8 wires, blue/ orange/green/brown and then slate  and with coloured markers to determine the layer. Each wire had a coloured band =e.g. pair one was a white wire with a blue band, and it's mate was a blue wire with a white band. And etc for the other pairs, ( except for other UG cables, which we apprentices had to learn /be tested on ).

As said, I always used "dark colours high", meaning that I would connect the blue with a white marker to terminal 5. Totally wrong, but then I'm a rebel.

Edited 7 April, 2022 by VWD

[fabdavrav]

Talk of 2G earlier in the thread....

 

I only have use for a basic phone...so have been using a Samsung B2100 tough phone "quad band" 2G only...with O2...

 

Never had any problems with it...but having gone of mountaineering (first time since lock-down)....I think the masts have been upgraded in the remote areas..

 

So somewhere remote...Phone was showing 4 or 5 bars signal...dialled home...no tone & phone stuck on "dialling"...& sometimes "conditional forwarding displays"....tried several times..nothing...Had to use my mates smart phone (also on O2) which is 3 & 4G ...2 or 3bar signal & worked fine...

 

Had the same thing happen with another mate about two weeks later in another remote place...get home or in a main town & my phone works ok!!

 

I have also noticed now in the car (car has BT & external aerial & amplifier for the phone as part of the VW MQB platform phone package) in remote areas that it takes several attempts to dial to get a connection & sometimes displays (conditional forwarding)..

 

Had a long conversation with technical at O2...& according to them I should have been ok in those areas with 2G......so no fecking idea as the WTF went on!!

 

Now have a simple tough phone that is 2G,3G,4G, & 4LTE....!!

 

Thoughts anybody???

[PetrolDave]

According to https://hyphabit.io/2g-network-closure-uk/:

 

Quote

Vodafone and EE have announced they will be shutting their 2G networks in 2025.

What that actually means is complete shutdown of 2G by Vodafone & EE will be 2025 but shutdown in some areas will have already started.

[fabdavrav]

1 hour ago, PetrolDave said:

According to https://hyphabit.io/2g-network-closure-uk/:

 

What that actually means is complete shutdown of 2G by Vodafone & EE will be 2025 but shutdown in some areas will have already started.

 

Had a read of that....

 

In UK...

2G =

EE closing by 2025

Vodafone closing by 2025

O2 closing by 2033 as used by smart meters.

3 never had any 2G

 

3G =

Vodafone closing by 2023

EE closing by 2023

O2 closing by 2033 as used by smart meters.

3 closing by 2033??

 

However, "Alternative mobile support for IoT that would best run on 2G is already being provided by Vodafone using NB-IoT and also by O2 using LTE-M, both based on 4G.".

 

Basically:- "The need to retain 2G was driven by the initial inability of 4G to support voice. With that having been addressed by VoLTE (Voice over LTE – Long Term Evolution) the need for voice support from 2G was removed."

 

It explains a lot..but still doesn't explain why I'm on O2 & got 4 bar signal with 2G & it wouldn't dial??..anyway....

 

.....his is why the replacement phone I got does:-

2G GSM 2, 3, 5, 8
3G UMTS 1, 2, 5, 8
4G LTE 1, 3, 7, 8, 28

[AnnoyingPentium]

14 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

According to https://hyphabit.io/2g-network-closure-uk/:

 

What that actually means is complete shutdown of 2G by Vodafone & EE will be 2025 but shutdown in some areas will have already started.

 

Well I would replace the smartphone for a Nokia 3310... sods law, innit.

[fabdavrav]

16 minutes ago, AnnoyingPentium said:

 

Well I would replace the smartphone for a Nokia 3310... sods law, innit.

 

I've just replaced my Samsung B2100 (2G) with a CAT B40 (2G, 3G, 4G, LTE)...

[cheezemonkhai]

The fact that 3G goes first, also speak volumes about what it can and can't do along with the cost of doing it vs other technolgoes.

 

When both landlines and 2G/3G go, then things get interesting for people who have alarms, redcare and dualcom type products.

New products that can use both wifi and 4 and 5G mobile will be needed, but they will need to be much more complex (expensive) to provide a way to input and update details for the wifi networks.

 

I'm sure there will be other tech, but at the end of the day, with no copper phone line and the tried and tested mobile tech going there is either going to be a lot of work for the alarm/care alert systems installers or a lot of systems that are not working.

 

 

 

 

 

[AnnoyingPentium]

With 2G going, will we see an increase in the price of "burner" mobile phones? Asking for a... friend... yeah, that'll do. 

Edited 11 April, 2022 by AnnoyingPentium

[Aspman]

I unfortunately know quite a lot about this through work.

The switchover has already been happening for years. The target end date is 2025 but that's the END date. BT has been swicthing exchanges to the new digital infrastructure for a good few years now. If you've not noticed anything by now then really you're unlikely to notice much.

Not arguing that the old anologue tech had advantages but tbh the boat has already sailed on this (I don't work for the telecoms companies btw).

A big issues are homecare alarm systems (not burgler alarms), these are often still based on old anologue protocols and the manufacturers (a more disreputable bunch of chancers I've yet to meet) have not kept up and now mosy councils are having to buy boxes to stick in front of the old kit. It's a nice bit of cash for the alarm makers, they sell you out of date kit, sweat it for years then double sell you another box to keep using it to save replacing the entire system.

 

If BT can an exchange before the council has updated all the kit of affected individuals then basically Granny's emergency alarm will stop working.

 

It's yet another piece of short sightedness by all involved

[VWD]

On 11/04/2022 at 21:43, AnnoyingPentium said:

With 2G going, will we see an increase in the price of "burner" mobile phones? Asking for a... friend... yeah, that'll do. 

WILL2G go, as a lot of services use it for device to office comms. Personally, I hope not, as one of the few companies ( vody and its spins off) can still guarantee me mobile service to me home. How many homes a little distance from a mast cannot get a decent signal. Outside, other networks which have given up on 2G can get a phone signal outside, but not inside. My son struggles to get a signal to make calls inside our place, but yet on Voddy and associates( TALKMOBILE), we can talk/text etc on both networks, meaning that we can dispose of the landline. AP- Vodafone do not openly advertise Talkmobile , but it's there as an alternative. We don't use much data, but for the equivalent of free landline anytime we get two mobiles on free calls+texts and limited data for £5 per phone per month. iT'S A PAY MONTHLY PLAN.

[PetrolDave]

9 hours ago, VWD said:

WILL2G go

I think it's guaranteed to go unless the mobile operators are offered both subsides and additional frequency allocation for 5G.

 

2G  takes up frequency allocations that operators want to use for 5G - which is where the bulk of their profit will come from, so from a purely commercial point of view (which is all they care about) they won't keep 2G going unless they get paid (well) to do so.

[VWD]

Back to original subject.

The problem is that in the past, analogue phone services were provided over copper lines, where the battery in the exchange (backed up by exchange generators, dependant, mainly, on a supply of fuel)  supplied service to customers. The same generators kept power provided to outstations and anything that needed power. Then came optical, where light signals went on for ever and ever. No need for powered analogue amplifiers or the digital equivalent = regenerators  (fancy name for digital amplifier 😁, for which I'll not bore you with a technical description).  I'd suggest that at this time designers/ technical managers lost sight of the need for power at the end user.

My late father lived close to a Highland town, but I found in his shed, an old Calor gas burner. WHY- it was a regular feature for electricity to fail in winter, and the Gas stove was his way of making food/ cup of tea. Old soldier mentality I suppose. But till we get planners, or perhaps old school engineers in remote places, then we'll not get planners to remove the idea where comms fail when power does.

[PetrolDave]

10 hours ago, VWD said:

But till we get planners, or perhaps old school engineers in remote places, then we'll not get planners to remove the idea where comms fail when power does.

+1

 

One thing that really frustrated me was when I posted on a chatroom where BT representatives post one of them denied that there was any obligation on BT to provide emergency calling in the event of a power cut. Maybe Ofcom would like to remind BT of their obligations?

[Aspman]

On 16/04/2022 at 10:31, PetrolDave said:

+1

 

One thing that really frustrated me was when I posted on a chatroom where BT representatives post one of them denied that there was any obligation on BT to provide emergency calling in the event of a power cut. Maybe Ofcom would like to remind BT of their obligations?

It's possible that the Gov has allowed that requirement to depreicate quietly.

[VWD]

On 16/04/2022 at 10:31, PetrolDave said:

+1

 

One thing that really frustrated me was when I posted on a chatroom where BT representatives post one of them denied that there was any obligation on BT to provide emergency calling in the event of a power cut. Maybe Ofcom would like to remind BT of their obligations?

Possibly one reason for OR/BT to now halt VOIP service ( or delay it). The reason for my statement about old world planners is that till the advent of fibre links between terminals, that BT always provided power feeding to remote stations to power remote equipment.

Aspman, I worked in PO( Forerunner to BT) and  every copper route including early digital had some form of power feeding/ provision for backup power. Possibly it's now because fibre links do not have any loss that requires power to amplifiers( digital equivalent is regenerators) that the concept of providing for minor station loss of power has been over looked. As has the concept of 24/7/365 service.

 

[cheezemonkhai]

I have a copper landline even with fttp and mobile precisely because it’s reliable and works with an old corded phone when there is no power locally.

 

Take away the reliability and simplicity of the landline and I imagine most people wouldn’t bother any more.

 

 

[PetrolDave]

2 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

I have a copper landline even with fttp and mobile precisely because it’s reliable and works with an old corded phone when there is no power locally.

 

Take away the reliability and simplicity of the landline and I imagine most people wouldn’t bother any more.

Sadly my new build house comes with only fibre to the property, so I'm going with VoIP from a non-BT provider as it's less than half the monthly rental (including unlimited free calls to UK landlines). Good job I'm in an area with good mobile coverage, and I have elderly relatives living less than a mile away who still have copper.

[VWD]

On 25/04/2022 at 09:04, cheezemonkhai said:

I have a copper landline even with fttp and mobile precisely because it’s reliable and works with an old corded phone when there is no power locally.

 

Take away the reliability and simplicity of the landline and I imagine most people wouldn’t bother any more.

 

 

I also have a copper landline. But then I was trained, by the BT predecessors, that we needed several ways of holding trousers up. Belt/braces and in last event bit of string. Same as it was with supplies ( be it power/ transport or frequency generation , or in days of digital, clock sources).

My mobile phone can be charged from home ( or if power fails), from either a battery or in last resort in the car. But if local power fails ( and given the failure to provide backups to local cells , that is a likelihood, I have the landline).

What I'm seeing from BT/OR retreat from the move to full fibre is as a result from the fiasco following the last storm damage.

What we need is some provision from BT/OR to allow mobility users to use their mobility batteries to charge a handset. But we have single minded bosses in BT/OR who have failed to think of what happens when power fails.

In the old days, my manager would be with us trying to start the generator. These days, a degree does not prepare them for hard work in the field.