So this isn't meant as a stage for slagging 'EV's or 'ICE' cars, but hopefully it's a backwater place where people can speak of their changing stance and love for EVs. 

 

They are a new thing in general terms and we are still getting to grips with the infrastructure and the unique compromises and benefits that EVs bring. Personally I like the idea of instant torque, great acceleration and quiet cruising, however I don't like the range issues (that may be of more concern to me than you) and lack of what I can only really describe as soul. A combustion engine and a gearbox, yes I don't like CVTs either  is so emotive and gives me genuine pleasure to hear, see and feel the whole 'mechanicalness' of the shebang. I can't see myself ever truly loving an EV, even if ultimately I may end up admiring them. 

 

What say you?

 

 

IMO there is nothing extra special about driving an ICE vehicle for just getting about no matter how nice it is when you have to keep to UK national speed limits IMO.

The only benefit is with them is that you can quickly fill with fuel and get on your way.  That only concerns those doing hundreds of miles where there are a crappy choice of chargers and you have a crappy EV like i have when it comes to range. 

 

Some people fall in love and marry objects so I suppose anything's possible. Technically she was cheating on a tree having a boyfriend. 


 

Quote

A mum who married a tree left her boyfriend at home as she marked her first wedding anniversary.

Kate Cunningham, who changed her surname to Elder when she and the elder tree tied the knot, said the pair are more loved-up than ever and they have no plans to divorce.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/mum-two-who-married-tree-22672425

Edited 12 June, 20223 yr by @Lee

Although she was obviously hedging her bets and branching out, this isn't strictly a petrol engine thing, or even a green thing .... er, in the EV sense.

 

I think you can get great satisfaction pootling along in a petrol engined car, well below the speed limits. Some of my happiest memories were going slowly in a V8 TVR (top burble) and an MG Midget (top down). It's not all about speed for me. I've had several little Fiats that you had to rev the bezeesus off to get going, but they were great fun and had great character. Many electric  cars have speed, but they somehow leave me cold. It's a bit like 'meatless' meat substitutes. In isolation, they are fine, quite pleasant even and you can't argue their green credentials, but once you have had a real bacon sandwich... well there's no going back. 

I loved and cherished many a vehicle and had good times with them.

Eventually as time goes by they become a worry, people scratch or ding them, birds crap on them and when they finally go they are a memory.

 

Once you have false teeth and a stomach that prefers no meat then the bacon might still smell as good and also taste good but might lose it's attraction.

5 years ago in MK shopping centre they opened an "EV" experience shop (it closed a few weeks ago)just after it opened I was passing and someone leapt out of the shop and asked if I would like to try a Golf GT/E  EV "No thank you"  Why ?  " I currently drive a Golf derived car (Octy 1.9tdi) I can hook up my caravan drive around 300+ miles till I need to refuel 10 mins to refill with dead dinosaurs and off I go for another 300 miles and when I get to the campsite the beers in my fridge are ice cold, with an EV the trip would take at least 3hrs more and my beer would be luke warm"

A Golf GTE would have been fine being a hybrid, just not a great towing capacity.

An e-Golf is a different thing. 

40 minutes ago, nige8021 said:

5 years ago in MK shopping centre they opened an "EV" experience shop (it closed a few weeks ago)just after it opened I was passing and someone leapt out of the shop and asked if I would like to try a Golf GT/E  EV "No thank you"  Why ?  " I currently drive a Golf derived car (Octy 1.9tdi) I can hook up my caravan drive around 300+ miles till I need to refuel 10 mins to refill with dead dinosaurs and off I go for another 300 miles and when I get to the campsite the beers in my fridge are ice cold, with an EV the trip would take at least 3hrs more and my beer would be luke warm"

 

I hadn't even considered the warm beer conudrum. 

29 minutes ago, roottoot said:

A Golf GTE would have been fine being a hybrid, just not a great towing capacity.

An e-Golf is a different thing. 

It might not of been a GT/E but it had a VW badge and looked Golf shape they were pointing at 

This could be an interesting thread...   I went shopping the other day to Chesterfield from Sheffield (easier to get to the retail park there from where I live) and we took the Swift as we're trying to use the kodiaq as little as possible given the cost of fuel. 

 

As we headed off I actually said to SWMBO that with me now working from home most days and not out on site much we could probably manage with a small EV and she agreed.

 

However I do love the Swift's offbeat triple thrum, it's hybrid torque and nippiness and it's great handling so even if we could manage I don't think I'm quite there yet...   but I'm certainly moving closer than I've ever been before.

 

What I will struggle with is the sense of connection, the skill involved in manual gear changes and that feeling of lightness you only get with something like the Swift or MX5.  I absolutely hate the thought of nearly 2 tonnes or more of car...   It goes against my efficient engineering mantra.

 

Oh and just for the record the Swift did there and back at over 70mpg...

Edited 12 June, 20223 yr by skomaz

The only thing I associate with ICE is 2000's Top Gear. But soon after I passed my driving test, I got fed up changing gears in traffic and started driving automatics. Now I associate ICE with loud, vibration, slow to react and polluting.

The first few points are especially obvious when jumping between EV and Octy 2.0 TDI DSG, a great motorway cruiser, shame about the DSG...... I loath driving it every single time on local roads, now only ever use it for long trips until I can change to a modern long-range EV (Tesla Model Y on order).

 

EV, on the other hand, I love the feeling driving it. Mainly the effortless instant and non-stop torque and refinement from lack of noise/vibration. It just feels like I am directly controlling the car.

This may reads like blasphemy, but I'm really looking forward to ever increasing levels of autonomy with cars. I heavily rely on ACC whenever possible.

 

So do I love EV's or its powertrain? No. I'm staying in a Skoda forum because I found there are like-minded people who want to save money while motoring. So I suspect you may get a different answer on a car enthusiast forum, less people that thinks like me, where more people may see maintaining mechanical parts of cars as a hobby and EV are totally closed off blackboxes.

Interesting...   I've driven lots of autos and never liked them as I feel out of control in one. 

 

The same goes for autonomy...   No the thought fills me with dread.  I have active cruise on the Swift and it is good but that's as far as I'll go at this stage.  I can see how it might appeal to others but not me. 

  I got used to Autos having had a DSG as my first and then a combination of auto and DSG type gearboxes after that. The current ZF in my BMW is amazingly quick, almost as quick as a DSG (DCT in BMW speak) and also extremely smooth. It does take a tiny bit of a leap of faith when you first go over to autos, but I don't think I'll ever go back to manual, partly because my knees aren't as good as they used to be and things like 2 hours of stop-start crawl around Heathrow just about does them in. Electric is fine for going to the shops though, I don't mind that at all, but there is no enjoyment in it.

  It's a bit like having a Swiss built, clockwork chronograph watch or a digital battery one. The battery version keeps time better, which you can easily argue is the point of a watch, but the analogue masterpiece of beautiful engineering is the one to covet for many. I don't own either myself, but can see the attraction for the artisan built jewel of a timekeeper, the battery one however is merely a thing with a function that I would feel attached to in the same way as I'm attached to my fridge. I like my fridge, it's really useful, it's where I keep my gin, but it could be any old white goods box as long as it performed adequately.

7 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

  It's a bit like having a Swiss built, clockwork chronograph watch or a digital battery one. The battery version keeps time better, which you can easily argue is the point of a watch, but the analogue masterpiece of beautiful engineering is the one to covet for many.

Very nice analogy. Each to their own.

 

I own a really nice auto-winding full mechanical Omega, and smart watches. I can see the attraction of those watches, it's very nice bit of kit. But ultimately functionality of smart watches won me over from very early Pebble smart watch to Apple watch now.

 

You could say I'm a tech-head. My hobby are in PC gaming, VR gaming, home automation and photography. Did you say fridges? Now let me talk about all the things I'm researching on heat pumps and home battery

 

 

For automatic gearboxes, it was absolutely fine when driven with moderation and with it in mind. But ever since gotten used to driving EV, my right foot no longer have any filter, I expect the car to behave the exactly reflect my right foot. That means I have many times forgot to account for gearbox downshift (and with DSG, very slow down shift 2 gears a few times from cruising at 50mph) when trying to slip into faster lane. This usability deficit became frustrating and thus developed into my undesirable to drive it (among other things such as running cost).

 

 

I liked the watch analogy too.  I wouldn't say never, but certainly not in the near future. Although it's very hard to put my finger on exactly why that is.

 

I have a £9.99 Casio watch having ruined nicer ones previously.  I've a Dyson cordless, an e-bike, cordless drills, a battery powered mower, mobility scooter, cordless hair trimmer (Pandemic purchase) and electric toothbrush, so everything says I should like EV's.  But I find myself unable to warm to them.

 

We went to my Cousin's for the first time last year for a belated housewarming.  He has two toys; a 2CV and a TVR Griffith 500.  It didn't leave the garage, but he fired up the TVR.  Had the garage had a Tesla and a Leaf in it, I'd have undoubtedly been impressed by the technology, but ultimately neither would have the phwoar! factor of the TVR's rumble.

 

We recently needed a new washing machine.  Our Ecobubble went tits up.  I did my usual and looked for the 'best 2022...' with a view to upgrading.  Sally went out, and came back with the second cheapest basic Beko.  There's only the two of us, our washing is never truly dirty, and it's used twice a week.  the saleswoman said (quite rightly) that we didn't need anything fancy and her Beko was now five years old.  It's a great washing machine and the cycle we use is only 28 minutes.  Do I look back at the washing machine after I've emptied it and think oooh?  No I do not.  I think I'd feel the same way about an EV.  I used to notice Tesla's, but now I don't.  I still notice vRs's, and if I see a sprint yellow one, it makes my day.

 

I watched the chap (Robert?) from Fully Charged with his 2011, owned from new, blue Leaf.  And found myself thinking what a brilliant purchase that was.  Newly retired, it'd probably suit me to the ground.  But I'd still rather get in my GTI if I'm going out for a tootle.

 

Gaz

Edited 14 June, 20223 yr by Gaz
'kin autocorrect

I would love if someone gave me this unloved car for free and i would keep it for ever until someone offered me a deal i could not refuse.

 

It is not a 'Barn Find' if it was being moved occasionally. 

Good to know they are like other battery powered stuff and do not leave the batteries in and just forget and expect them to be OK when you go back. 

(I wish i could find the watch in my house that bleeps occasionally and has done for years now.) 

 

 

 

 

 

I think some of this is generational - we grew up with ICE cars around us, learned to drive in them, fawned over the nice ones from a distance, etc. My children I suspect will have a different view of ICE vs EV when they get to driving/car buying age. We have some emotional attachment to the idea of ICE because we have a lot of memories linked to them.

 

I have had a Superb II CR170 Combi for the last 6 years (a manual for a bit over a year until it was written off in a collision and a DSG for the last 5) and I have to say it's an excellent car, fast, roomy and handles pretty well for its size and weight. But apart from the power delivery and economy, there's nothing special about the engine, it's up there doing its job but the noise it makes is nothing special - I'm aware there's an engine up there but that's it. It could easily be replaced with a hybrid or electric drivetrain and it would make no difference to the car, and I will be replacing it with one of those drivetrains when the time comes. I get out of the car and it's "good job car" but there's no longing to jump straight back in and go for a drive for the hell of it.

 

Now some of this I can say because I have the luxury of also having a recently acquired Porsche 944, a car which would not be the same at all if it had an electric drivetrain. There's a real sense of occasion from the moment the starter swings over to fire it up, there's a fruity exhaust which lets you know it's there all the time, and once it's warmed up it performs the way only a highly strung petrol engine can, screaming up the redline then a pop on overrun at gearchange. I never get out of that car without a smile on my face, and that's just because of the car/drivetrain. I'll take the long way home just to drive it a little bit further and enjoy the engine a bit longer.

 

A while back at a Cars&Coffee meet a few of us were discussing this exact topic, and one of the lads made an interesting comparison to horses. At one point, horses were every day transport for the masses one way or another, and most horses you saw were unremarkable working animals pulling carts or carriages or ploughs or all of the other things that required *ahem* horsepower. Horses existed for sport/leisure too but that was a marginal use case. Nowadays, ICE (and increasingly EV) have completely replaced horses for working purposes, and leisure/sport use is all that's left, but that's still there and is a bigger industry than it would have been a century ago. This is most likely where ICE will end up, leisure/sporting use and if horses are any indication it won't be going away any time soon.

I am undoubtedly a tech head, I installed a HIVE system in my house and have most lights now on PIRs, Most electrical things are on mains powered remote switching plugs, Inverter tech in a few kitchen items, heat pump condensing tumble dryer etc, OLED telly, don't get me started on hifi. DSLR cameras, e-bike, Hybrididdy work car, several laptops and tablets, Alexa and Goole pod/puck thingies x many, enough cable to rewire the national grid around Manchester and Lord knows how many power banks floating around weighing me and my life down. I'm basically out of control as my work spills over into my private life  

 

But I think the fact that we can happily discuss fridges alongside EVs is a pointer as to how different mindsets work. I'm not convinced at all that battery EVs are the answer to anything, although I admit that Petrol and Derv has probably had its day. Mind you, the day I retire, a hell of a lot of my lesser tech is going straight into the bin and my phone will be taking a step back to Neanderthal capabilities.

One of my favourite things to do in my car is to slow down for a bend, drop from 4th to 3rd, then slam on the power and pull out of the bend onto the straight. It takes a teeny bit of practice to get it right and balance the revs, but that action of throwing the stick forward, followed by the surge of power, the growling engine and the small g forces that act on you is somewhat reminiscent of using the afterburner on a jet fighter.

 

Another analogy I've heard is the pump-action shotgun. The big racking action and accompanying Cha-CLACK is pretty iconic, and is frequently used to significant effect in films for this very reason. It's physical, it's visceral, it's engaging, and anyone who's used either a shotgun or indeed anything else with a slide-action will know what I'm talking about.

To a certain extent, you get the same effect from putting my bike into first gear - That assertive downward step on the shifter and the slight jerk as the gearbox clunks firmly in is such a definite and engaging movement.

 

I'd even liken it to being a musician, specifically drumming. Pressing a few buttons to make sounds come out does sound the same to most people, but it has nothing compared to actually playing the sounds yourself, and even listening to something while knowing how it would feel if you were to play it makes for a wholly better experience.

 

Like the Lady above, I am a tech head too. I have smartphones, I have a Casio ABC watch, I even build high end gaming PCs (for myself and for paying customers) that are packed with watercooling and festooned with ARGB LEDs.... but mechanical stuff is what's most engaging. The more of this you take away from the driving experience, the less engaging it becomes. Automatic gearboxes are one step down this path, and the EVs I've experienced are several more steps.

You're no longer doing things. They're being done for you by a computer. For this reason alone, I don't think I could ever fall in love with an EV.

 

I had several better and funnier analogies, but they have quite an 'adult' theme and I don't think they'd be suitable for this forum?

Lots of us like or love a real fire, coal burning, wood burning or even a bonfire. 

The smell in the air of lovely mature pine or some wood burning in a hearth in a town, village or in the countryside.

  Not the Hotel burning down!

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60754370

 

Some still have these open or fossil fuel fires & heating / cooking systems if they own their home and will as long as they live and for some the days are numbered.

Sooner in cities you might expect than out in remote areas.

 

Aberdeenshire Council decided that Council Tenants could no longer have open fires in Braemar, much to those that know how important they can be when storms mean their in no electricity and they have no mains gas. 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-59998090

 

 

There might be some meaning to my blethering, or maybe not.    

 

Still a filling station in Braemar with a generator and a EV Charging Hub without a generator & luckily still horses about & people with saws, axes etc. 

Edited 13 June, 20223 yr by roottoot

Another analogy is perhaps BBQ: charcoal vs gas vs electric? Similar to manual petrol vs auto diesel vs EV?

 

We still have a charcoal BBQ, it's smoky and slow to get going. Getting it going and finding hot spots is part of the experience (also burnt food). We have also recently bought an electric smoke-less indoor grill. Although I personally think it's great and food from it is 90% there, my wife (who's a foodie) dismisses it as a fake imitation of cooking on coal.

 

1 hour ago, chimaera said:

A while back at a Cars&Coffee meet a few of us were discussing this exact topic, and one of the lads made an interesting comparison to horses. At one point, horses were every day transport for the masses one way or another, and most horses you saw were unremarkable working animals pulling carts or carriages or ploughs or all of the other things that required *ahem* horsepower. Horses existed for sport/leisure too but that was a marginal use case. Nowadays, ICE (and increasingly EV) have completely replaced horses for working purposes, and leisure/sport use is all that's left, but that's still there and is a bigger industry than it would have been a century ago. This is most likely where ICE will end up, leisure/sporting use and if horses are any indication it won't be going away any time soon.

Exactly this. EV's should not be seen as death to ICE by enthusiasts, it should be seen as a way to filter out the everyday and elevate the hobby into something more recognised and organised.

 

36 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

You're no longer doing things. They're being done for you by a computer. For this reason alone, I don't think I could ever fall in love with an EV.

Each to their own, I think many car enthusiasts will have this mindset.

And I think it's absolutely okay to not love a white good

The electric 'thing' removes so much of my connection with an event or control of an action that it stifles so much potential pleasure from even the most mundane things. My last few cars have all had electric steering, which have been universally horrible. Even the M3 doesn't have any real feel to it. It's incredibly accurate and certainly goes where you point it, but there is also a lost connection, as there is in all the electrical systems that now proliferate modern cars. Perhaps these forums will become tech enthusiast forums, or efficiency worshipping sites, but I'd be surprised if they remain as car enthusiast forums. 

 

Having said that, young people 'tune' their cars with a destruction of their exhaust systems and a remap. 30 minutes work and they have an under braked, overly loud, back firing, understeering missile. They love it, it's cheap, effective and they can pretend they are in fast and furious. Tuning cars was once a skilled, time consuming and ultimately expensive experience. You felt you had earned every meagre horsepower, could feel that extra cats-eye bump with your uprated dampers and coils and learned to live with your now squeaky brakes that underperformed until they were warm  The journey was part of the experience and ultimately gave you more satisfaction (and pain) than a simple plug and play fix. But kids seem to prefer playing Fifa to actually kicking a ball around and so forth. Centuries of doing things the hard way and gaining untold and unexpected reward from this, is coming to an end and I think we will be a poorer society for it. But the one thing you can't stop is progress, even if it isn't what everyone wants. 

 

 

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Another analogy is perhaps BBQ: charcoal vs gas vs electric? Similar to manual petrol vs auto diesel vs EV?

 

We still have a charcoal BBQ, it's smoky and slow to get going. Getting it going and finding hot spots is part of the experience (also burnt food). We have also recently bought an electric smoke-less indoor grill. Although I personally think it's great and food from it is 90% there, my wife (who's a foodie) dismisses it as a fake imitation of cooking on coal.

 

Exactly this. EV's should not be seen as death to ICE by enthusiasts, it should be seen as a way to filter out the everyday and elevate the hobby into something more recognised and organised.

 

Each to their own, I think many car enthusiasts will have this mindset.

And I think it's absolutely okay to not love a white good

The barbecue is a very good analogy, I think.

I've had several enthusiasts go on and on at me about their fancy gas and electric rigs, with their main selling point being how their cook-outs are instantly on and fired up, with all the cooking done and everyone finished eating within half an hour, allowing you to go get on with something else... I'm not sure what else they'd want to be doing at a barbecue, but at this point I will usually bring up the aforementioned adult analogy, liken it to their relationship and suggest how disappointed their partner(s) must be if their bedroom life is anywhere near as brief, dull and soulless an experience as their barbecue!!

I then like to move on to their claims that they are supposedly able to cook things to absolute precision with the absolute control that their absolutely wonderful (and absolutely expensive) gas/electric rig provides... as the only time I've known food cooked with timing down to the second like that is the crap they serve in McDonalds. Whenever I've actually accepted their invite, it's never been anything like as good as they promised.

 

For many people, a barbecue is a big all day event, with people showing up and socialising around the fire, things being cooked in rounds, skills being both learned and exhibited in the actual cooking, and in the provision of accompaniments, plus all the other social stuff that people only seem to do at such gatherings. Double that if it's a braai.

So again, the electric version seriously diminishes the main event of the whole experience.

 

I think a bit like music you are defined by your era. My love of cars comes from watching films like Cannonball run, Smokey and the Bandit etc. So the sounds of a big V8 is evocative to me. People 15yr younger might prefer the sound of high powered 4s like the Scoobies and Evos of the 90s. Maybe if your tastes are being defined now you'll find the insipid whine of a Tesla sends shivers down your spine. Or maybe you just won't care about cars at all.

 

I think the golden age of motoring is past. Cars are (and have been for 20yr) becoming increasingly bland and sold based upon their connection to you phone.

 

I really think I need to get a big silly V8/10/12 before they are all gone or banned

13 hours ago, Aspman said:

I really think I need to get a big silly V8/10/12 before they are all gone or banned

 

Roaming the wild badlands of Scotland in ragged biker leathers, sawn-off at your side, as you drive the last of the V8 Interceptors?

Or would it be more like in Doomsday, with that  2007 Bentley Continental GT... in which case, can I have Rhona Mitra?