Hybrid versus petrol and diesel: a comparison of real-life fuel consumption

[cheezemonkhai]

In a 2 car household I completely understand one EV and one ICE.

 

The issue with the hybrid is the poor MPG vs an equivalent ice on longer journeys. I totally get your point about range anxiety though so yes it’s an issue that needs better infrastructure.

 

On the chargers, few destinations have rapids and a PHEV can be full on even a 7kW very quickly so don’t need to take up the EV dedicated bays all day. Also a good number of rapids have a 22/50kW AC port and I’ve seen plenty of hybrids in the bay sat there for a long time. There are 7kW free next door.

 

Again it comes down to education and a combination of penalties such as idle charging. I’d quite like to see a charge for cars charging at 7kW or less on anything in a dedicated rapid bay.

 

On a phev plus side, they’re far less annoying than an EV/phev/self charging car parked in EV bays and not plugged in 😡

[Ootohere]

@cheezemonkhai  DC Rapid chargers have sometimes a 22 / 43 kW AC on the side. 

There are plenty BEV's that get parked on them for hours and hours even ones that can only get a 7 or 11 kW charge on the AC so can go on the 'Fast Chargers' provided for 'Park and Ride'  or park and bog off not caring about anyone else.. 

 

What is needed is a clear guide inside EV's like the Warning Stickers you get in 4X4' / SUV's from the far East or USA that explain how things like difflocks and Hi / Low work. 

 

Too many BEV drivers have not a clue, as with PHEV drivers. 

 

Drivers come back and you point out the car has stopped charging a long time ago and they were only charging at 7 kW and hogging a bay and they say that the charger was available. Ignoring all the ones they could have been on.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/502359-what-kwh-does-an-enyaq-charging-on-ac-43-kw-chargers-get-why-use-one-when-there-are-plenty-22-kw-chargers-available

 

Edited 1 July, 2022 by roottoot

[Joss1733]

i know it is bit off skoda,just thinking bentley are coming out with a electric car in the next year or so.what i cannot get my head around how big and heavy they are going be to power a beast like that?sorry going off subject.

[Ootohere]

Battery Shortage not going to be holding them back!.  Well we will see. 

 

They will do just fine because the battery and motors might not be much more than the Engine / Gearbox weight which is being excluded.

They do OK with a Bentley with Cylinder Deactivation that means half the cylinders not active and there is enough power to roll them along. 

 

They obviously will make a big deal about acceleration.

 

If you have a wind turbine on your land that brings in £1/4 Million a year or even a farm of them then who cares about the cost or range. 

I know someone with a few turbines bringing in the cash, then a Public Charger that was Grant Aided and they had to give a Years free charging.

They put an out of order sign on the charger.

You do not get where they are by being generous. 

 

 

 

Edited 1 July, 2022 by roottoot

[cheezemonkhai]

6 hours ago, Joss1733 said:

i know it is bit off skoda,just thinking bentley are coming out with a electric car in the next year or so.what i cannot get my head around how big and heavy they are going be to power a beast like that?sorry going off subject.

kia EV6 GT is not so heavy for an SUV, but definitely not light either. 0-60 of 3.something seconds and beats most super cars in a drag (a Mclaren  came back the others didn’t). That did it with the same motors and battery as an AWD ev6 and a few handling upgrades plus a motor inverter upgrade

 

Bently will be fine, because frankly EV are so quick anyway. I imagine they way they will get to 1.5s would be to strip weight as 300-400hp per tonne is already here.  I guess time will tell 👍
 

 

[Jorgeminator]

4 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

kia EV6 GT is not so heavy for an SUV, but definitely not light either. 0-60 of 3.something seconds and beats most super cars in a drag (a Mclaren  came back the others didn’t). That did it with the same motors and battery as an AWD ev6 and a few handling upgrades plus a motor inverter upgrade

 

Bently will be fine, because frankly EV are so quick anyway. I imagine they way they will get to 1.5s would be to strip weight as 300-400hp per tonne is already here.  I guess time will tell 👍
 

 

Everyone just bragging about their so called "carbon neutral" EVs. Meanwhile I drive my CNG Octavia on locally produced biogas, fueled 500 feet from the plant. Fuel cost around 0.06€/km 😁

 

Edited 2 July, 2022 by Jorgeminator

[Ootohere]

LPG was super in the UK and cheap then retailers got rid of pumps.  But Dacia now have LPG cars available in continental Europe and they were coming to the UK but suspend for now as there is a LPG shortage.  Supposedly that is because no shortage in Scotland.  Just a shortage of places selling it still.  

Edited 2 July, 2022 by roottoot

[MiniNinjaRob]

On 30/06/2022 at 18:21, cheezemonkhai said:

Fleet wise most people I knew never charged them, and even those that did ran out of juice in 15 miles on full electric mode.

 

BIK wise, our company said they lost the tax relief on it and that new cars were no longer permitted. Personal BIK lower until 2025 is good to have. Is it still at 2%?

Well if you don’t charge them you’re an idiot. But that depends on the vehicle. I remember the Mitsubishi Highlander IIRC was a plug in but the battery did nearly nothing but company car buyers bought them in droves as it was a cheap BIK way of getting a big 4x4 but off electric the mpg was terrible. 
 

No idea what your company is talking about as I posted the BIK rates above as you can see. They aren’t as low as 2% as that’s electric only but still very low compared to diesel (yuck) or petrol. 

[MiniNinjaRob]

On 29/06/2022 at 13:31, cheezemonkhai said:

 

However that's terrible compared to a diesel, which for a long run on diesel will get 65MPG+ without doing much more than keeping it at or below 70 and looking ahead.  I do agree that batteries are useful, but then if long journeys are rare, why not look at a short/long range EV for 99% of the journeys and renting an ICE vehicle for longer distance.

 

 

Firstly I have had diesels (very “eco” ones brand new) and I never got more than 55mpg average round where I live. 
I think you are missing the point though. Emissions used to be taxed on CO2 only and while they still are to some degree the advantages now in the BIK system have been handed to electric cars as the biggest issues are particulates in built up areas which diesels are the main cause of. 
I wouldn’t have a diesel again and hated having one anyway, horrible engines, horrible emissions. 
 

if you would care to read what I wrote before you can see that I said that the EVs available to me were more expensive than the iV mostly - the only cheaper ones were tiny cars which were no good for carrying bikes and kit for days out. Mind you the bigger EVs were all hateful SUVs. 
 

I would also imagine renting an ICE car big enough for all our gear for the 5 or 6 weeks we are away on holidays plus weekends away would run into thousands of pounds a year. Not practical, even without factoring the bike rack I need to fit to the car!!

 

 

[cheezemonkhai]

2 hours ago, MiniNinjaRob said:

Well if you don’t charge them you’re an idiot. But that depends on the vehicle. I remember the Mitsubishi Highlander IIRC was a plug in but the battery did nearly nothing but company car buyers bought them in droves as it was a cheap BIK way of getting a big 4x4 but off electric the mpg was terrible. 
 

The outlander was the vehicle that had them banned from fleet. No range, terrible MPG and charges to replace never charged battery on return.

2 hours ago, MiniNinjaRob said:

 

 

No idea what your company is talking about as I posted the BIK rates above as you can see. They aren’t as low as 2% as that’s electric only but still very low compared to diesel (yuck) or petrol. 

 

They got VAT relief at a higher rate I believe and hybrids no longer qualify.

[Ootohere]

VAT back on the Public charging is nice.

 

Then there are those like the guy i was talking to during lockdown.

He was doing work for the NHS and his employees did deliveries usually in Ford Courier vans that he was getting speeding tickets for often as they were 'Max Speed' restricted, rubbish for economy.

He bought for them, not just leased lovely new prestige EV's to do deliveries in.

  The Scottish Government grant helped with the expense of vans and charging, & the HMRC / Tax Payer helped, then there is the free charging in Scotland that was available, 

then Commercial Public Charging was not an issue either with the VAT refunded. 

 

 

[MiniNinjaRob]

50 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

The outlander was the vehicle that had them banned from fleet. No range, terrible MPG and charges to replace never charged battery on return.

 

They got VAT relief at a higher rate I believe and hybrids no longer qualify.

The VAT thing makes no difference to the company driver though. 
Banning PHEVs wholesale sounds like a fleet manager who doesn’t know what they are doing. 

[cheezemonkhai]

1 hour ago, MiniNinjaRob said:

The VAT thing makes no difference to the company driver though. 
Banning PHEVs wholesale sounds like a fleet manager who doesn’t know what they are doing. 

If you’d seen the bill for batteries….

 

Also don’t forget there have been years of fuel card data for hybrids and PHEV, so it’s clear to them the increased fuel spends per mile drive vs pure ice.

Edited 2 July, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[MiniNinjaRob]

1 hour ago, cheezemonkhai said:

If you’d seen the bill for batteries….

 

Also don’t forget there have been years of fuel card data for hybrids and PHEV, so it’s clear to them the increased fuel spends per mile drive vs pure ice.

The outlander should not be used to judge PHEVs, it’s a terrible one. 
I had a MHEV Auris and got more MPG out of it than my previous 2 diesel vehicles, and I kept detailed records over 4 years for each one. Sounds like some driver training was needed as I did have to drive slightly differently with the Auris but not massive changes. 

Edited 2 July, 2022 by MiniNinjaRob

[Ootohere]

Mild Hybrid Electric Vehicles have been doing OK and there are plenty to choose from now but they are not Plug in Hybrid Vehicles so just yet another choice. 

They do work as Taxis / Private hire vehicles and for business and private use.

Very much part of the Electrification that Manufacturers are desperate to get out because for the WLTP / RDE2 they get the low emission numbers even if many driving them real world can not.   

But that is as with all fuel / energies, some can get economy and some can not.

[cheezemonkhai]

4 hours ago, MiniNinjaRob said:

The outlander should not be used to judge PHEVs, it’s a terrible one. 
I had a MHEV Auris and got more MPG out of it than my previous 2 diesel vehicles, and I kept detailed records over 4 years for each one. Sounds like some driver training was needed as I did have to drive slightly differently with the Auris but not massive changes. 

The outlander was the worst but the data was from the whole fleet and included a number of hybrids. At the end of the day they looked at their data and as the company was paying for fuel made their choices.

[Gerrycan]

I have no experience with a PHEV type vehicle but based on experience with other vehicles (petrol, diesel, Toyota hybrid) I find the discussion really interesting but somewhat at odds with my expectations.

Our old 1.4tsi Octavia estate on a long run, on flat roads, I've found consumption is adversely affected more by a strong headwind than a full load (guessing +350kg), and was getting just over 50 mpg with the large load at highway speeds.

So I am surprised that an iV (which has far better aerodynamics than a mk3 estate), even when it is lugging a large empty battery around, is only reported to give mid 40's mpg returns. I'd also expect the occasional braking regen recuperation to allow some level of assistance from the hybrid system to improve consumption a bit.

 

A hire diesel C'eed in the UK returned calculated 60mpg and 70mpg near full tank refills from a lot of touring using motorways. Far better than I got from my mk2 1.9pd by the way.

A hire Toyota Corolla 1.8l hybrid sedan returned 65mpg with extensive touring in the Australian Northern Territory (speed limits up to 130kph). This has a really small NmH battery that it only uses half of its capacity anyway. The low performance atkinson engine is optimised for efficiency and the hybrid component fills in its weaknesses at lower speeds, but does not do so much at higher speeds. Add in the huge gearing range offered by the CVT gearbox and that all mostly explains how it is does so unusually well at high speed runs.

 

I am interested in a PHEV but the only affordable ones here are Chinese and their ICE components are not particularly efficient at the best of times. 

The iV is not sold here, in fact the only lower priced mk4s on offer here only have the old 1.4tsi with an 8 speed Aisin torque converter box. 

 

[DavidY]

On 01/07/2022 at 11:11, cheezemonkhai said:

Really as above, I think the current and previous generation of PHEV, bar a small number (i3 Rx) are greenwashing.

I'm interested in the Mazda MX-30 which will reportedly have a version added to the range with a small rotary engine as a range extender.

I really like the idea of a smaller, lighter, battery (the current EV version has 120-odd miles of  WLTP range I think) which is capable of most journeys, plus petrol to kick in for those fewer days when you make longer trips.

For instance I often make 80 mile round trips (maybe twice a week on average) but occasionally (but several times a year) drive 200 miles (and then the same to return on a later day).

For me, I think a range extender would potentially be even greener than an EV in terms of energy use, as I wouldn't be lugging round the weight of a big battery pack all the time when most days you don't need it. Sure the petrol would kick in occasionally but as a % of miles it would be so low that it I suspect it would compare well against the extra energy cost of lugging that big battery.

The only problem is the MX-30 seems like such an impractical design of car (eg rear doors won't open without front doors, and despite SUV looks, not that much actual space.
If someone put a range-extender power train in something like my Octy estate they could just take my money.

[LSport]

On 05/07/2022 at 02:37, Gerrycan said:

 

So I am surprised that an iV (which has far better aerodynamics than a mk3 estate), even when it is lugging a large empty battery around, is only reported to give mid 40's mpg returns. I'd also expect the occasional braking regen recuperation to allow some level of assistance from the hybrid system to improve consumption a bit.

Using the sat nav helps the car spread the battery usage throughout the journey.  I read reports that the battery in the Octavia can go completely flat around 80 miles, but I managed to to do 110 miles with 1 miles of electric range remaining.  Managing to achieve over 80 mpg of mostly motorway driving.

 

On 16/07/2022 at 22:47, DavidY said:

I'm interested in the Mazda MX-30 which will reportedly have a version added to the range with a small rotary engine as a range extender.

I really like the idea of a smaller, lighter, battery (the current EV version has 120-odd miles of  WLTP range I think) which is capable of most journeys, plus petrol to kick in for those fewer days when you make longer trips.

For instance I often make 80 mile round trips (maybe twice a week on average) but occasionally (but several times a year) drive 200 miles (and then the same to return on a later day).

For me, I think a range extender would potentially be even greener than an EV in terms of energy use, as I wouldn't be lugging round the weight of a big battery pack all the time when most days you don't need it. Sure the petrol would kick in occasionally but as a % of miles it would be so low that it I suspect it would compare well against the extra energy cost of lugging that big battery.

The only problem is the MX-30 seems like such an impractical design of car (eg rear doors won't open without front doors, and despite SUV looks, not that much actual space.
If someone put a range-extender power train in something like my Octy estate they could just take my money.

I agree, a longer battery version with the backup of petrol would be appealing to a lot of people, however I have read the cost to manufacturing and selling would be higher than the equivalent EV.  Questioning whether there would be the demand for this type of vehicle or would customers go straight to the cheaper equivalent EV version.  The list price for a Plug-in hybrid today with it's smaller batter is close to EV prices. The BMW i3 extended version is a good example where BMW tested the water with new technology and seemed to get more demand than they were expecting.  But at the time, there was very few other alternatives.  Now EV models of a similar class/size have been released, manufacturing of the i3 extended version have stopped. 

 

We think a lot of what is being offered has to do with customer demand.  Misconception in my opinion.  I think our options previously has been deliberately very limited, to benefit those fat cats.  We have seen experiments with other fuel types, many of which proved they can work and had they been given more time and investment, could of gone mainstream similar to EV's.  Whilst some people bought LPG vehicles or conversion kits, we were told why go with an unknown and unproven fuel type when you can get really good MPG and low tax for having a diesel.  So people went at bought diesels.  Then it was, diesels are bad, but petrol is cheaper and cost less to maintain.  A big push (by those fat cats) back to petrol.  Now, electric vehicles are our future and good of our planet.  Unfortunately it appears to me, our decisions are not really ours.  We are given false advertisement, a lack of real information and in some areas scare tactics are used.  Media has a big part to play in this.  Where are we now?  Left with EV's that are far too expensive for a high portion of the population, fuel prices (gasoline, electric, gas, etc...) going through the roof and anyone remember those pledges from our world leaders about cutting pollution levels at a recent summit earlier this year?  Many of which have been reported are not going to hit even close to the targets they set themselves.  

[PetrolDave]

On 16/07/2022 at 22:47, DavidY said:

For me, I think a range extender would potentially be even greener than an EV in terms of energy use, as I wouldn't be lugging round the weight of a big battery pack all the time when most days you don't need it. Sure the petrol would kick in occasionally but as a % of miles it would be so low that it I suspect it would compare well against the extra energy cost of lugging that big battery.

I'm in a similar situation, most of my drives are less than 50 miles per day but I regularly, about once a month, need to make a 200 mile cross country trip where currently I only pass one EV charging station and that's quite near to home.

 

So a pure EV with a GUARANTEED in all weather conditions 200 mile range would require me to unnecessarily lug around a heavy battery 30 days out of 31, which would mean a range extender EV with an electric range of 70-100 miles would be environmentally better.

[cheezemonkhai]

1 hour ago, PetrolDave said:

I'm in a similar situation, most of my drives are less than 50 miles per day but I regularly, about once a month, need to make a 200 mile cross country trip where currently I only pass one EV charging station and that's quite near to home.

 

So a pure EV with a GUARANTEED in all weather conditions 200 mile range would require me to unnecessarily lug around a heavy battery 30 days out of 31, which would mean a range extender EV with an electric range of 70-100 miles would be environmentally better.

 I think I said before, but a small range extender engine, like a generator, with a 5L fuel tank or a LPG/CNG generator and 10KG capacity tank would be enough to get you where you need to be. Most hybrids are carrying a full engine, transmission and 40+ litre fuel tank, such that the engine can drive the wheels.

 

If you're adding 50kg to a car, but saving 150+kg of batteries,  meaning you can do 150 real miles easily, and RE up another 75-100 miles, then I've no issue with that. Sadly that' s not the direction most manufactuers are in and the octavia iV is adding nearly 300kg to the equivalent car.

[Jim2015]

I'm charging the car regularly using off-peak electricity as I'm now maximising the use of e-power. The latest bill shows that the car cost £6 for 240 miles of motoring, with minimal use of the IC engine. After filling the car one month ago, the fuel gauge still registers full, but I estimate that I've used 1 1/2 gallons of petrol which equates to a total cost of 8p/mile, quite close to the figure I gave in the first post on this topic..

[LSport]

The point about weight is a good one.  I don't have or intend on having a full tank of fuel since most of the time I am running on batteries only.  For longer distances, batteries are full before leaving and I get better range running on a smaller amount of fuel (less weight) in the car, making a quick pits stop towards the end of my journey for petrol when needed.  Adapting to the vehicle being driven, whether that is ICE, EV, PHEV, etc... is key to getting the most from the vehicle.  

[DavidY]

6 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

So a pure EV with a GUARANTEED in all weather conditions 200 mile range would require me to unnecessarily lug around a heavy battery 30 days out of 31, which would mean a range extender EV with an electric range of 70-100 miles would be environmentally better.

The all-caps there suggests you may share the same worries as I have about real range of EVs on a long journey. I don't know how the WLTP range for an EV translates to 200 miles of motorway driving in the coldest day in December for instance.
For an ICE car like my current Octy diesel, I see my best MPG figures economy on a long motorway run; I can just about beat its "official" (pre-WLTP) figures on a run like that. But in urban driving etc. I can never get near those figures. This must bring down the official MPG figures quite a lot;. So the official MPG for an ICE is made up of good economy at constant speeds on fast roads but poor economy in urban areas.
But for EVs, they are much better than ICEs in stop-start urban traffic because of the regen.  I imagine the official range figure for an EV is the other way around to an ICE; made up of good figures in urban areas, but poor economy at constant speeds on fast roads.
Which means if you want to exercise your EV's range by long journeys on fast roads, it could be much more disappointing (compared to the official economy figure), than the ratio you'd get for an ICE.
This video is interesting - a big battery Enyaq (official range 318 miles on that particular model) could only manage an estimated 200 miles range at 70mph, and that's before any lights or heating were switched on. Despite the claimed 300mile plus range,  that guaranteed 200 mile range seemingly isn't there for any Enyaq.
https://youtu.be/mmQJUW-VyRY?t=1161
 

8 hours ago, LSport said:

Using the sat nav helps the car spread the battery usage throughout the journey.  I read reports that the battery in the Octavia can go completely flat around 80 miles, but I managed to to do 110 miles with 1 miles of electric range remaining.  Managing to achieve over 80 mpg of mostly motorway driving.

 

I agree, a longer battery version with the backup of petrol would be appealing to a lot of people, however I have read the cost to manufacturing and selling would be higher than the equivalent EV.  Questioning whether there would be the demand for this type of vehicle or would customers go straight to the cheaper equivalent EV version. 

 

The problem is that (as above) the current crop of full EVs have such mediocre range, and I'm not sure even the really expensive one's are that great.
Whereas a PHEV is much more likely to get you there on one tank.
A Range Extender may have to do a petrol station stop on a long journey  (will be interesting to see the specs of that MX-30) but that will only take 5 minutes.
The cost of those big batteries also drives the price up. If Mazda do release a Range Extender in the UK it will be interesting to see how much the petrol engine+generator increase the price compared to the cost of increasing the battery. The MX-30 is already quite cheap compared to many EVs, presumably because the battery is so small.
 

4 hours ago, LSport said:

The point about weight is a good one.  I don't have or intend on having a full tank of fuel since most of the time I am running on batteries only.

The extra weight of petrol to give a 400 mile range compared to a 100 mile range is much, much less than the weight of EV batteries you'd need to give the same increase.

Edited 18 July, 2022 by DavidY
Accidentally pressed wrong key and posted too soon.

[Jim2015]

Re DavidY 'I imagine the official range figure for an EV is the other way around to an ICE; made up of good figures in urban areas, but poor economy at constant speeds on fast roads.' My sister in law has a Honda Jazz hybrid and gets better mpg on her commute into Manchester than on a long drive.