Hybrid versus petrol and diesel: a comparison of real-life fuel consumption

[Gerrycan]

Funnily enough I can sometimes get better consumption from our bog standard ICE 1.4tsi mk3 estate pootling around Adelaide urban areas out of rush hour than on a long drive.

Requires light traffic, a lot of anticipation of traffic movement,  a minimum 16km run, average speeds above 35kph (usually 60kph speed limit), at least 50% green lights and I'll achieve  4.0 to 4.4L/100 indicated average. 

Longer highway (interstate highway meaning an undivided single lane in each direction) runs  with a proportion stuck behind 100kph B-double trucks will probably achieve 4.5L/100 at best or if very little traffic then 5.5L/100 at our 110kph speed limit.

Hybrids (and EVs) with regenerative braking and electric assist on acceleration would love urban areas and their slower speeds.

 

The wife is the principal driver of the Octavia on her 13 km commute and when I refilled the car tonight (low price point of our local price cycle) I noticed she was achieving an indicated 5.9L/100 for tank and long term averages, which I thought was quite good since she really does not care much about that sort of thing.

5.6L/100 = 50mpg (imperial gallons).

Edited 19 July, 2022 by Gerrycan

[Jim2015]

I had a drive yesterday in N Yorkshire. The roads were 'undulating', so there was quite a lot of regen going on. I don't often check the onboard data, but when I reviewed it, I'd covered 58 miles, 42 miles (73%) were emission free and the overall mpg was 102. This reinforces my opinion that the Octavia iV is the best car Skoda has ever produced, if only the early software issues had been sorted before release.

[Ootohere]

If you could have kept going & actually done 102 miles and used just 4.546 litres of petrol that is good.

If you have solar or wind to produce the electricity you charged the battery with then you will know it was emission free charging but if from the national grid you have no idea. 

[Jim2015]

When I speak to friends about 'emission-free' motoring, I usually add 'at the point of use'. According to Octopus Energy, so far this month our 100% green electricity has meant 64kg less CO2 emissions, equivalent to the amount 32 trees absorb in a year. Isn't it clever that they can supply green energy on the same cables as all my neighbours using other suppliers.

 

[Ootohere]

When the UK Government and Energy Companies are trying to kid people about renewables they include wood pellets brought into the UK from the US and burned at Drax power stations. 

Kidology. 

http://news.sky.com/story/climate-change-draxs-renewable-energy-plant-is-uks-biggest-co2-emitter-analysis-claims-12428130

 

I do not kid myself i am saving trees, only that i am saving money but somebody else is paying for the electricity i get even if it comes from renewables in Scotland and the National Grid. 

 

Edited 30 July, 2022 by roottoot

[Gerrycan]

On 30/07/2022 at 03:41, Jim2015 said:

I had a drive yesterday in N Yorkshire. The roads were 'undulating', so there was quite a lot of regen going on. I don't often check the onboard data, but when I reviewed it, I'd covered 58 miles, 42 miles (73%) were emission free and the overall mpg was 102. This reinforces my opinion that the Octavia iV is the best car Skoda has ever produced, if only the early software issues had been sorted before release.

The overall consumption is excellent but for the 16 miles of ICE use you got about 30 mpg?

 

[Jim2015]

My understsanding is that 102 mpg refers to the amount of petrol used so it cost about £5.50 for petrol and 78p for electricity ie 9p/mile. Half our motoring is on e-power so the calculation in the first post of this section indicates that the annual cost will be 7.6p/mile. I think the 73% emissions free figure is optimistic. Next time I'll note both the petrol and e-power range before a journey as well as after.

[Gerrycan]

19 hours ago, Jim2015 said:

My understsanding is that 102 mpg refers to the amount of petrol used so it cost about £5.50 for petrol and 78p for electricity ie 9p/mile. Half our motoring is on e-power so the calculation in the first post of this section indicates that the annual cost will be 7.6p/mile. I think the 73% emissions free figure is optimistic. Next time I'll note both the petrol and e-power range before a journey as well as after.

The additional information would probably help me understand. I know how the Octavia iV operates but not all aspects of what is reported here is not quite in line with my expectations.

I'm not up to date with UK fuel prices so I'm not exactly sure what 5.50 pounds buys,  2.5 or 3 litres? I'd be looking at getting somewhere between 45 and 60 km on that quantity variation with my old 1.4tsi (gentle touring) and it would currently cost three pounds maximum here in Australia.

 

We are coming to the UK later this month and looking at rental cars which are far more costly than 5 years ago. Oddly full EV options are not a whole lot more expensive, but obviously there is the fact that I'd be paying full commercial recharge rates and I'm not sure that we can afford the probable travel time penalty involved with planned trips from London to Scotland and other parts. Very tempted and great for local stuff but I'll have to sit down and work it out, and soon.

I was surprised that Toyota hybrid options (or even any rechargeable hybrids) were apparently not available on any UK rental site I could find? Pity as we had very good experiences with one we rented last year in the Northern Territories. We will probably end up with a Kia C'eed which seems the best price for size option.

Edited 1 August, 2022 by Gerrycan

[Jim2015]

Hi Gerrycan. I last filled the car on 15th June and it cost £1.83 per litre. In the UK Octopus Energy provides four hours of off-peak charging for 7.5p/kWh, which is why our iV is so frugal on fuel costs since we rarely drive long distances. I would not recommend an EV for the UK as the charge points are very expensive. On June 4th the average was 44.55p/kWh. Cheaper than petrol but it takes time to recharge and there is the anxiety of finding a charge point in more remote areas. My recommendation would either be a diesel engined hire car or the Honda HR-V or Jazz self-charging mild hybrid. Both of the latter are extremely economical and my sister-in-law's Jazz is more economical on a slow commute than on a long fast drive. Enjoy your visit to the UK and don't forget to visit Yorkshire,  God's Own County!

[Joss1733]

3 hours ago, Jim2015 said:

Hi Gerrycan. I last filled the car on 15th June and it cost £1.83 per litre. In the UK Octopus Energy provides four hours of off-peak charging for 7.5p/kWh, which is why our iV is so frugal on fuel costs since we rarely drive long distances. I would not recommend an EV for the UK as the charge points are very expensive. On June 4th the average was 44.55p/kWh. Cheaper than petrol but it takes time to recharge and there is the anxiety of finding a charge point in more remote areas. My recommendation would either be a diesel engined hire car or the Honda HR-V or Jazz self-charging mild hybrid. Both of the latter are extremely economical and my sister-in-law's Jazz is more economical on a slow commute than on a long fast drive. Enjoy your visit to the UK and don't forget to visit Yorkshire,  God's Own County!

just wonder with the prices going through the roof,how long will it be until the prices at charging stations go into orbit

[Ootohere]

Not going to affect those that do not charge PHEV's at Charging hubs but at home.

 

The home tariffs might go up and the free charging on 7kW chargers at supermarkets might start costing money, but then 7kW charging is as much as PHEV's need. 

[timster]

On 01/08/2022 at 19:22, roottoot said:

Not going to affect those that do not charge PHEV's at Charging hubs but at home.

 

The home tariffs might go up and the free charging on 7kW chargers at supermarkets might start costing money, but then 7kW charging is as much as PHEV's need. 

In Finland there is no free charging points on supermarkets anymore. Also with 3.7kW they are quite pointless, if not going for food and shopping for like 2 hours.

[Jim2015]

For the first time I drove on e-power unil the engine started. The journey was 38 miles, 27 were on e-power and the overall mpg was 241. It was 29 degrees outside, so the aircon was set to 17 degrees. Because of regen the battery still had 5% at the end of the trip. I'm very impressed!

[Ootohere]

It was an indicated 241 mpg. 

after you had done 30 miles you would be doing well if you were getting 50 mpg. 

[Gerrycan]

On 11/08/2022 at 03:05, Jim2015 said:

For the first time I drove on e-power unil the engine started. The journey was 38 miles, 27 were on e-power and the overall mpg was 241. It was 29 degrees outside, so the aircon was set to 17 degrees. Because of regen the battery still had 5% at the end of the trip. I'm very impressed!

Impressive on several levels although as Root says it is dependant on display accuracy and I'm not sure how that accuracy can easily be tested.

Taken at face value the distance on battery alone is exceptional and it suggests that the 11km utilising the engine was achieving  around 70mpg so despite the low aircon setting you must have been driving very economically.

Standard ICE Octavia have three consumption display; current, since refuel, long term (usually last 99 hours of driving). Do you get a variation of this with the iV?

If so then it may be possible to do some sort of comparison of calculated fuel consumption against reality when you refuel?

 

Unlike Root I am less sceptical about the possible 70mpg since, as I have said (many times) before, we got close to that in a rented Toyota non-rechargeable hybrid, in higher temperatures, and without any attempt to achieve good economy.

 

It worries me a little bit that the battery seems capable of running from 100% right down to zero since this is not good for the battery long term. Again it might only be reporting on utilised capacity rather than actual capacity retaining a percentage at either end for battery longevity?

After all the water temperature gauge on VW group ICE vehicles is artificially stabilised at "N"ormal to avoid scaring the punters about the variations that occur in normal operation. If it does indicate a high temperature then you DO have problems.

 

 

[SkOmk4]

6 hours ago, Gerrycan said:

Again it might only be reporting on utilised capacity rather than actual capacity retaining a percentage at either end for battery longevity?

My understanding is that all PHEVs "reserve" some percentage of the battery capacity to be accessible ONLY to the hybrid system, and not to the user as EV-mode. I recently had a rental (MG PHEV) that I used only as hybrid, because it was delivered with "empty" battery and I had no easily-accessible charging point. However, with that "0%" battery shown by the dashboard throughout all my journeys, the car would (almost-)always use the electric (no ICE) in low-speed segments of my trips; even at 50-60 km/h it would sometimes run exclusively electric, unless I demanded more power.
So I'd say the PHEV battery never goes down to the real 0%, unless something goes terrible-wrong with the management software.

[Ootohere]

@Gerrycan

Checking if these cars can average 70 mpg is easy when the battery is charged up just once. 

You charge the battery to full and then see if for 10 gallons / 45.5 litres the car will go 700 miles. 

Or even 350 miles on just 23 litres on a brim to brim check. 

 

Petrol Hybrid Toyota or Hyundai / KIa are a whole different kettle of fish from a PHEV.

Skoda even do a 1.0 /1.5  tsi MHEV.

Easy enough to see the efficiency / mpg they can achieve compared to the more established ones from the other manufacturers.

 

Hypermiling or just checking fuel use is common enough on this forum.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/503738-fuel-economy

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 August, 2022 by roottoot

[Gerrycan]

@roottoot, your suggestions are not necessarily cheap, convenient or necessary to calculate fuel consumption. It depends on what the car offers on consumption displays ( which is why I asked) and normal routines.

@Jim2015 has given us displayed stats for a couple of his longer trips where it used the ice and there seems to be a wide variance in potential consumption between the two.

I was just going to politely request that when he refills, and it might be a long time between refills, that he supplies us with the amount put in and the 'since refuel' display figures to try and work out trip display accuracy.

The Bosch add on 48 volt very mild hybrid system does not seem to offer much consumption benefit for its added complexity.

The Toyota hybrid system is even more complex but for a relatively small extra cost can near halve consumption.

VW group PHEVs could be the single car solution we are looking for Australian conditions when they become available here but they will not be cheap. I am trying to avoid Chinese vehicles if possible but they are all that are affordable / available here.

 

Edited 17 August, 2022 by Gerrycan

[Felix2021]

6 minutes ago, Gerrycan said:

The Bosch add on 48 volt very mild hybrid system does not seem to offer much consumption benefit for its added complexity.

Actually it does, at least in the city driving. The least you get is a really, really user friendly S&S system, which can save quite some fuel in the traffic jams. Also coasting brings some benefit.

I would actually say, that level of added complexity is really low by today standards. It's really just a battery and DC-DC converter, not counting generator-motor, which is just replacing alternator. I really like it.

[Gerrycan]

2 hours ago, Felix2021 said:

Actually it does, at least in the city driving. The least you get is a really, really user friendly S&S system, which can save quite some fuel in the traffic jams. Also coasting brings some benefit.

I would actually say, that level of added complexity is really low by today standards. It's really just a battery and DC-DC converter, not counting generator-motor, which is just replacing alternator. I really like it.

 

I admit I have not driven a mild hybrid 48volt system but they are on a few vehicles sold here and the official consumption figures and local reviews figures suggest they really only offer a few points per litre improvement so it is interesting to hear of your real world experience and opinion of the tech.

Our Skoda is a seven year old manual 1.4tsi, no stop/start and I can usually improve on the official combined consumption figure in urban driving using light 'hyper-miler' techniques in our admittedly lighter traffic conditions. If I catch lights which I know have a long cycle then I manually stop the engine for the up to 1 and half minute cycle. 

The 48volt system allows a driver easier access to those sorts of techniques but I obviously I don't actually switch off the engine when coasting.

 

I'm past retirement age but still working and normally we would have considered changing our Octavia which has been, and still is, an excellent 'goldilocks' vehicle for us.

However Skoda prices have gone through the roof here and are no longer the clear bargain they were, I value efficiency more than excessive performance I would rarely use. The base Octavia sold here is still a 1.4tsi but with an Aisin 8 speed torque converter box with poorer consumption figures than our existing vehicle.

We are on the cusp of a new generation motive power for vehicles so buying a new pure ICE seems short sighted, EV is too expensive, current individual vehicles not quite to my liking and the infrastructure certainly not in place in Australia.

A PHEV seems to offer a middle ground but I cannot make up my mind whether it is the best of both worlds or the worst.

 

Rust on our vehicle is not a problem since we live in a Mediterranean type climate and is low mileage at 50k miles so the temptation is to just persevere with what we have got and wait for prices on new vehicles to stabilise when supply chains improve and/or EV tech and infrastructure matures to point where it is more viable for us.

 

I am comfortable with ICE as I think I know its strengths and many weaknesses, but battery technology is a bit of a head scratcher. It seems the more you actually know about it (not the marketing tripe) the more questions it raises. Battery chemistry and performance is far better than it has ever been but my opinion is that it has a long way to go if we are going to be totally dependant on it

I really value the contributions that members make to this forum that can help me understand more and assist our possible vehicle choice decisions.

Australia will get more options including VW group PHEVS and EVs in the next year of so and Cupra options are now selling here.

The irony is that little New Zealand get a far better range of vehicles and much earlier than us because they don't the restrictive rules we have (originally put in place to protect the local car industry which has now disappeared anyway).

Edited 18 August, 2022 by Gerrycan

[Ootohere]

Now that Toyota have there latest hybrids out we will see if there is that much fuel efficiency improvement as time has moved on or not.

What lots of the cars need is to be smaller & also lighter.  Not just manipulated to pass WLTP / RDE2 to suit the EU / UK.

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/506215-thought-on-a-switch-to-hybrid

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/458155-many-plug-in-hybrids-never-getting-plugged-in

 

Germany is obviously not the UK or rest of the world but there are similarities where Business Users were incentified to het PHEV's even if not plugging in, as it helps the Manufacturers Average C02 figures of vehicles first registered even if in the real world usage they are using more fuel than an ICE vehicle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 18 August, 2022 by roottoot

[PetrolDave]

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

Germany is obviously not the UK or rest of the world but there are similarities where Business Users were incentified to het PHEV's even if not plugging in, as it helps the Manufacturers Average C02 figures of vehicles first registered even if in the real world usage they are using more fuel than an ICE vehicle.

There have been many reports in the UK of business owned plug-in hybrids being returned at the end of the lease with the charge lead still wrapped in its plastic bag and unused.

 

One example https://uk.motor1.com/news/276595/uk-hybrids-never-plugged-in/

[Ootohere]

As to the cost of checking your mpg.  It costs nothing if you are going on a trip anyway.  If the cars estimater is not enough it does show how many miles it goes, or a smart watch or phone does and you know from buying fuel how much is needed.   If you offer to take someone 200 miles or 240 you know 1 gallon will not take you there it will be 4 or 5 gallons required. Maybe 6 gallons in a plug in hybrid.  None of it is rocket science.  If you can go 30 miles and use no liquid fuel then good. 

Edited 18 August, 2022 by roottoot

[Felix2021]

10 hours ago, Gerrycan said:

I admit I have not driven a mild hybrid 48volt system but they are on a few vehicles sold here and the official consumption figures and local reviews figures suggest they really only offer a few points per litre improvement so it is interesting to hear of your real world experience and opinion of the tech.

Depends on what you mean by "few points per liter", but in my case it seems to be around 0.5l/100km. Test drove manual and DSG versions on the same route, in same conditions, mix of city and highway. 0.5l/100 is roughly 7-10% (in my case), so it's rather considerable difference i would say. Manufacturers tend to do more crazy things to achieve 5% savings

Also mHEV need some getting used to, to use it's potential.

Anyway i wanted DSG, and this is only possible combination. Price difference between manual and mHEV in Poland was the same, as with other cars between manual and DSG (without mHEV), so this system is kind of free for me

I like it a lot.

[Gerrycan]

On 18/08/2022 at 16:54, roottoot said:

Now that Toyota have there latest hybrids out we will see if there is that much fuel efficiency improvement as time has moved on or not.

What lots of the cars need is to be smaller & also lighter.  Not just manipulated to pass WLTP / RDE2 to suit the EU /

 

Not sure what Toyota are now selling in Europe/UK but in Australia it is pretty much based on the original Prius format of, high efficiency Atkinson cycle engine, small NmH batteries and cvt gearbox. Sized to application from Yaris to Kluger large 7 seat SUV (Australian nomenclature) models. Hybrids represent up to 76% of sales here for certain models.

Fuel savings claimed are around 40% better than full ice versions and I have heard of very few complaints from owners that they cannot match official figures. 

I believe the Yaris Cross hybrid may have a new improved NmH battery but otherwise same old, same old.

Toyota do not sell a PHEV version here.

 

Absolutely agree with you about vehicles needing to be "smaller & also lighter" and I'd add aerodynamic as well. Not just ICE but EV as well.

Unfortunately the largest selling class of vehicle in Aus is the ute, mostly diesel, and none of the above especially when they are the specially imported and converted to RHD US RAM and F150 models.

Humanity is seemingly doomed although the new Australian Labour government is showing signs of a  genuine environmental conscience. I had never been a Labour voter but was driven to it to replace the old Liberal (very, very conservative) collection of corrupt liars and morons lead by Scott Morrison who not only claims to believe in god but seemingly thought he was god.