Hi folks, 

 

I'm finding the steering feel of the Superb somewhat lifeless, vague and far too light. Looking for your help to see what I can do to improve it

 

Having owned 3 other VAG's (2 x Golf R's and 1 x Golf Alltrack) I'm used to the lack of steering feedback however, the Superb is the worst so far. Drove my wife's Alltrack the other day and it was more direct than the Superb.

 

Current handling mods are just Eibach lowering springs at the moment, and good tyres. Have also had a play with the XDR settings as well, didn't seem to make much difference.

 

The main issues I'm noticing are:

 

• Steering is too light - Even in sport mode, it doesn't seem to get much stiffer either
• Too much free play when on-centre
• Zero feel - Mark Zuckerberg has more feelings than this steering rack 😂

 

Reading this thread by @Legion suggests the issue may be related to the type of steering rack used in the Superb however, I'd prefer not to resort to such drastic measures yet.

 

Has anyone had success in making the steering better in these cars? 

 

Which tyres have you got?  That will play a big part on steering feedback.

it all depends how much you spend/how badly you want to improve it!

 

These are a few upgrades that you can do after the tyres:

• Front Anti- roll
• Front Strut Brace
• Uprated Poly Bushes
• Camber adjustment kit 

Remember the Superb was always designed more as a comfort limo, than a sports car.  If you want a car with sharp handling, it’s not really one to choose

Are tyre pressures OK? 

I’ve been exploring this. VAG has built the superb to eliminate NVH and in doing so have eliminated all steering feel. FYI Extra caster increases dynamic camber gain in corners and makes the entire range of the steering stiffer because of angle change. Many of the below will increase NVH but IMO only enough to provide enough feedback. Here are my discoveries:

 

1. Superpro lower control arms. These give you an extra 1 degree of caster. Gives better feel.

2. Alternatively. Front Lower control arm rear bushings can give you 0.5-1 degree of caster and are much cheaper than whole LCAs.

3. Front tower strut brace can improve steering feel and feedback.

4. ECU steering parameter import from other MQB cars. This controls resistance and ratio/speed of the progressive electronic steering rack. You can import the parameters using ODIS or VCP from cars that use the same rack part number. My Superb has part 5Q0909144T, which is shared by some RS3 and other models. This would make a big change.

 

I'm aiming to do the front strut brace and ECU steering parameter upgrades as I’m running 20 inch wheels and 35 profile tyres so I can’t afford any extra caster. Caster gain will push the front wheels forward in the wheel well. I’ve also replaced the front lCA bushings with stiffer stock caster bushings. This also made a noticeable improvement.

Edited 21 October, 20223 yr by Frankenfurter

I would disagree that front roll bar will help sharpen handling. A rear one will though. Also to a lesser extent a digbone insert. Didn't affect my Passat loads but it tightened up the front of my Octavia a fair bit. Just made it less squirrelly in bumpy corners. That and B6 shocks made the biggest difference on that car.

6 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

I would disagree that front roll bar will help sharpen handling. A rear one will though. Also to a lesser extent a digbone insert. Didn't affect my Passat loads but it tightened up the front of my Octavia a fair bit. Just made it less squirrelly in bumpy corners. That and B6 shocks made the biggest difference on that car.

I recently drove a FWD superb with one before and after and there was a noticeable difference. I didn’t expect it because of how rigid the front of MQB is but I stood corrected. May be because of the track width and wheelbase of the superb and the forces it places on the chassis through corners.

Edited 21 October, 20223 yr by Frankenfurter

@Frankenfurter that's interesting and good to know. I'm planning a set of springs soon for my Passat. Being a heavy beast (GTE model) suspension is affected massively. I will consider a front bar down the line. Have a white line rear bar already. Much bigger job on the front though.

12 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

@Frankenfurter that's interesting and good to know. I'm planning a set of springs soon for my Passat. Being a heavy beast (GTE model) suspension is affected massively. I will consider a front bar down the line. Have a white line rear bar already. Much bigger job on the front though.

Keep in mind this is the front tower strut bar and not the front sway bar.

 

BUT if you do upgrade the rear sway bar as I did, the softness of the front will be much more obvious. DCC reduces it somewhat for short quick steering adjustments but in longer or harder corners the front still feels soft. I tried upgrading to a Superpro golf r front sway bar but it doesn’t fit around my cross member. I did manage to fit a Mk7 golf r OEM front sway bar which is ~1mm thicker than my stock 206TSI superb front sway bar and it does feel improved. Car is flatter when I chuck it into a corner.

 

apparently the Passat 206TSI has no problem with the Superpro front sway bar. Also the Passat 206TSI actually has stiffer sway bars front and rear than the superb, which just goes to show how soft they made the big Super-B!

 

I could probably also add a front and rear sway bar and the DCC slider mod to the list too. Anything that reduces the damping or flex in the suspension components will also help feedback.

 

if I was you I’d do both sway bars. Normally MQB understeer so like a pig but the Passat gte and superb iV can oversteer because of the battery weight. Doing both with adjustable bars will help you get a neutral balance and complete the weight transfer in corners faster.

 

id also look at that extra caster from the front LCA rear bushing. If you can live with the front wheel being slightly further forward it will make a noticeable improvement.

 

id also recommend the DCC slider mod to everyone because it’s just awesome and gives you Sport++ which doesn’t come in the superb at all and only comes in 2020+ Passat.

 

 

Edited 21 October, 20223 yr by Frankenfurter

1 hour ago, Frankenfurter said:

I’ve been exploring this. VAG has built the superb to eliminate NVH and in doing so have eliminated all steering feel. FYI Extra caster increases dynamic camber gain in corners and makes the entire range of the steering stiffer because of angle change. Many of the below will increase NVH but IMO only enough to provide enough feedback. Here are my discoveries:

 

1. Superpro lower control arms. These give you an extra 1 degree of caster. Gives better feel.

2. Alternatively. Front Lower control arm rear bushings can give you 0.5-1 degree of caster and are much cheaper than whole LCAs.

3. Front tower strut brace can improve steering feel and feedback.

4. ECU steering parameter import from other MQB cars. This controls resistance and ratio/speed of the progressive electronic steering rack. You can import the parameters using ODIS or VCP from cars that use the same rack part number. My Superb has part 5Q0909144T, which is shared by some RS3 and other models. This would make a big change.

 

I'm aiming to do the front strut brace and ECU steering parameter upgrades as I’m running 20 inch wheels and 35 profile tyres so I can’t afford any extra caster. Caster gain will push the front wheels forward in the wheel well. I’ve also replaced the front lCA bushings with stiffer stock caster bushings. This also made a noticeable improvement.

For point 4 I meant to say level of assistance rather than actual changes to the ratio itself.

2 hours ago, MarkyG82 said:

I would disagree that front roll bar will help sharpen handling. A rear one will though

Well, a RARB by itself will make the car more oversteery. Search "Inverted Briskodan Club" for further evidence.

3 hours ago, Frankenfurter said:

 

1. Superpro lower control arms. These give you an extra 1 degree of caster. Gives better feel.

2. Alternatively. Front Lower control arm rear bushings can give you 0.5-1 degree of caster and are much cheaper than whole LCAs.

3. Front tower strut brace can improve steering feel and feedback.

4. ECU steering parameter import from other MQB cars. This controls resistance and ratio/speed of the progressive electronic steering rack. You can import the parameters using ODIS or VCP from cars that use the same rack part number. My Superb has part 5Q0909144T, which is shared by some RS3 and other models. This would make a big change.

 

 

1 Castor will give more camber when turning but it will push the wheel forward in the arch.

2 Personally I'd stay away from urethane. On youtube if you look up track-hack he outlines the options for the gti. The rs3 front mount is solid rubber without the void, a direct swap, cheap and oe quality. You can also, I believe, use audi adjustable aluminium control arms. I have a pair but I might be buying another superb so I'll install them once I know what I'm doing. For that matter there's also the alloy crossmember but I don't think there's a performance gain except for a little weight loss.

3. I don't think the strut brace would do much. It basically runs along the firewall. You aren't going to stretch or compress the firewall.

4. The Australian sportline superb doesn't get the variable rack. The uk gets the sportline plus. So a faster rack is either a steering quickener or a retrofitted variable rack if possible in aus. I was quoted $2770 from a dealer for the rack component. I bought a passat part locally for $300 from a breaker. But I'll need parameters loaded to see if it works. Software alone will not quicken the Australian rack. The hot golf versions get variable rack.

 

Anyway something to think about. And decent tyres and alignment is always a good start.

 

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Frankenfurter said:

 

 

id also recommend the DCC slider mod to everyone because it’s just awesome and gives you Sport++ which doesn’t come in the superb at all and only comes in 2020+ Passat.

 

 

 

I don't have DCC. Have koni SAs instead. Not the best and should have gone bilstein b6 but I want a to scratch that.

6 hours ago, Legion said:

 

1 Castor will give more camber when turning but it will push the wheel forward in the arch.

2 Personally I'd stay away from urethane. On youtube if you look up track-hack he outlines the options for the gti. The rs3 front mount is solid rubber without the void, a direct swap, cheap and oe quality. You can also, I believe, use audi adjustable aluminium control arms. I have a pair but I might be buying another superb so I'll install them once I know what I'm doing. For that matter there's also the alloy crossmember but I don't think there's a performance gain except for a little weight loss.

3. I don't think the strut brace would do much. It basically runs along the firewall. You aren't going to stretch or compress the firewall.

4. The Australian sportline superb doesn't get the variable rack. The uk gets the sportline plus. So a faster rack is either a steering quickener or a retrofitted variable rack if possible in aus. I was quoted $2770 from a dealer for the rack component. I bought a passat part locally for $300 from a breaker. But I'll need parameters loaded to see if it works. Software alone will not quicken the Australian rack. The hot golf versions get variable rack.

 

Anyway something to think about. And decent tyres and alignment is always a good start.

 

 

 

 

 

I’m trying out a few profile alternatives  on the 144T rack next week using VCP. Hopefully some of the profiles on cars lighter than the superb will provide less steering assist and give it a firmer feel across the board. I’m not desperate for a shorter ratio, ~2.7-2.8 turns to lock is fast enough for a car that never sees the track or autocross.

 

has anyone tried out different toe settings on the alignment? 

6 hours ago, Legion said:

 

3. I don't think the strut brace would do much. It basically runs along the firewall. You aren't going to stretch or compress the firewall.

 

 

Made a difference for my FWD Superb.

Not as much a difference as wat the rear swaybar does, but it's noticeable difference to steering feel and turn-in.

I wasn't expecting much, but I was pleasantly surprised.

 

This is the one I'm using, along with a Hardrace rear swaybar.

 

8 minutes ago, JR RS said:

 

Made a difference for my FWD Superb.

Not as much a difference as wat the rear swaybar does, but it's noticeable difference to steering feel and turn-in.

I wasn't expecting much, but I was pleasantly surprised.

 

This is the one I'm using, along with a Hardrace rear swaybar.

 

I wasn’t sure about this but there’s a superb down the road that had one installed and it seemed to make a difference, not sure if it also had an alignment though. It does appear that as the flex is taken out of the suspension joints and chassis there is a clearer response in the wheel, especially just off center. 

Edited 21 October, 20223 yr by Frankenfurter

Thanks all for the suggestions and ideas so far. 

 

Tyres are Goodyear Eagle Asymmetric 5 in 245/40/19 so should be all good. The steering feel was the same (still very light) when it had horrible tyres on it from the previous owner.

 

The idea of recoding the rack firmware is something that I'm interested in trying, purely as it's "cheap and cheerful", though I'd need to learn ODIS or find someone who does. Even if it just makes the steering heavier, that's a plus.

 

Alloy control arms might be the next item as I had them on one of my golf's and the difference was quite noticeable once aligned properly. Combined with a thicker RSB (SuperPro 24mm) it made a significant difference. I was lucky enough to get another RSB on sale recently, it has been sitting on the shelf waiting for a couple of months.

 

Does the superb have steel control arms? Pretty sure the Passat is alloy so assumed the Skoda was the same.

Not too sure on that, will need to check the part numbers.

 

If it does, then I'll probably just upgrade the control arm bushes to the SuperPro ones.

10 hours ago, CRB123 said:

Thanks all for the suggestions and ideas so far. 

 

Tyres are Goodyear Eagle Asymmetric 5 in 245/40/19 so should be all good. The steering feel was the same (still very light) when it had horrible tyres on it from the previous owner.

 

The idea of recoding the rack firmware is something that I'm interested in trying, purely as it's "cheap and cheerful", though I'd need to learn ODIS or find someone who does. Even if it just makes the steering heavier, that's a plus.

 

Alloy control arms might be the next item as I had them on one of my golf's and the difference was quite noticeable once aligned properly. Combined with a thicker RSB (SuperPro 24mm) it made a significant difference. I was lucky enough to get another RSB on sale recently, it has been sitting on the shelf waiting for a couple of months.

 

You may know this already but just in case: It’ll be easier for you if you find someone local with ODIS or VCP to try out the steering profiles. It’s a steep and expensive learning curve that can really mess up your car if you make a mistake.

 

Do a VCDS scan to find your steering rack part number, then your friendly local Odis/ VCP expert will be able to find other profile options for you to try. 
 

My approach will be to find any performance options with the same rack that might have less steering assist output (stiffer) or failing that, a lighter car that may also be set up to provide less assist.

 

There may also be people who have done this on drive.ru so worth a look.

 

if you get the SuperPro or Audi TTS control arms you can play with extra negative camber too. An extra -1 should feel good but not unevenly wear your tyres or tram line much. 

On 22/10/2022 at 09:18, Frankenfurter said:

I’m trying out a few profile alternatives  on the 144T rack next week using VCP. Hopefully some of the profiles on cars lighter than the superb will provide less steering assist and give it a firmer feel across the board.

 

Ok, so I've given it a try and happy to report back that even the non progressive rack can feel much better.

 

With my friendly neighbourhood ODIS/VCP expert's help we tried out a few different steering assistance maps for the Superb using VCP. My 2017 Superb 206/280 has the rack part number 5Q0909144T, which is not progressive and in stock form in the Superb feels way too soft for my liking. The hope was to make the sport setting actually feel firm. The rack profiles have "Sport" and "Normal" settings.

Using VCP the rack part and software numbers showed possible steering maps from the Audi A3 and Skoda Octavia. The A3 has maps from 1-4 and the Octavia from 3-8. We tested a few of them and learned that the lower number = lower levels of steering assistance (firmer). The two firmest (Octavia 3 and A3 1) were tried around the block and faster on the way home:

Octavia Level 3
Sport:

• Extremely firm. Tested up to 50kmh and would be at the upper limit of what I’d like. Didn’t test it faster but would likely be too firm at 100kmh.

Normal:

• Barely softer than Sport mode and not comfortable, which my wife would hate.

Audi A3 Level 1
Sport:

• At stationary and <10kmh slightly firmer than stock Superb but still very easy to move. From 20-60kmh the steering firms right up and feels exactly what I’d expect Sport to be. Gives good resistance right off centre and makes it feel less vague. At 100kmh feels very purposeful but not overly heavy.

Normal:

• Slightly firmer than Comfort was in the stock Superb but still very soft. Wife would give it the thumbs up.

I think I’m happy with the A3 Level 1 map for now. All meaningful driving now feels pretty much ideal in terms of wheel resistance. There may be some joy to be found in Octavia Level 4 but will sit with this for now and see how I feel.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Frankenfurter said:

 

Ok, so I've given it a try and happy to report back that even the non progressive rack can feel much better.

 

With my friendly neighbourhood ODIS/VCP expert's help we tried out a few different steering assistance maps for the Superb using VCP. My 2017 Superb 206/280 has the rack part number 5Q0909144T, which is not progressive and in stock form in the Superb feels way too soft for my liking. The hope was to make the sport setting actually feel firm. The rack profiles have "Sport" and "Normal" settings.

Using VCP the rack part and software numbers showed possible steering maps from the Audi A3 and Skoda Octavia. The A3 has maps from 1-4 and the Octavia from 3-8. We tested a few of them and learned that the lower number = lower levels of steering assistance (firmer). The two firmest (Octavia 3 and A3 1) were tried around the block and faster on the way home:

Octavia Level 3
Sport:

• Extremely firm. Tested up to 50kmh and would be at the upper limit of what I’d like. Didn’t test it faster but would likely be too firm at 100kmh.

Normal:

• Barely softer than Sport mode and not comfortable, which my wife would hate.

Audi A3 Level 1
Sport:

• At stationary and <10kmh slightly firmer than stock Superb but still very easy to move. From 20-60kmh the steering firms right up and feels exactly what I’d expect Sport to be. Gives good resistance right off centre and makes it feel less vague. At 100kmh feels very purposeful but not overly heavy.

Normal:

• Slightly firmer than Comfort was in the stock Superb but still very soft. Wife would give it the thumbs up.

I think I’m happy with the A3 Level 1 map for now. All meaningful driving now feels pretty much ideal in terms of wheel resistance. There may be some joy to be found in Octavia Level 4 but will sit with this for now and see how I feel.

 

 

 

Would your friendly neighbourhood ODIS/VCP expert be keen on helping me with mine too? I'd be willing to pay for their time

29 minutes ago, CRB123 said:

 

Would your friendly neighbourhood ODIS/VCP expert be keen on helping me with mine too? I'd be willing to pay for their time

 

Yeah man! It's Julian Doyle: https://www.facebook.com/doylejul 

 

Hit him up on messenger or if you don't have facebook let me know and I'll PM you his number. Tell him Mark sent you.

Edited 26 October, 20223 yr by Frankenfurter

On 21/10/2022 at 04:18, CRB123 said:

Steering is too light - Even in sport mode

+1

same conclusion after ~2h test drive of 2022 Sportline 280ps AWD DCC + Progressive steering,

in Sport mode it's lighter than 2016 Style 220ps FWD DCC + Standard steering in Normal mode.

 

Took advantage of a sale on SuperPro a little while ago and ended up with the rear anti-roll bar / sway bar & end links:

 

 

While there isn't any improvement to the steering feel, the handling is much better. More predictable, less body roll and much more fun in corners now.